Kanye West discussion

[bono_212]

That so many people get off on being offended is one of the worst things about our culture.

This thread and Gabe's torch-bearing is really bugging me, in light of the debates we were having in the NFL thread a few weeks back.

Reason being: I don't want to look like a huge hypocrite with what I'm going to say here, but, I completely 100% agree with you. Why am I supposed to get riled up because a white Canadian is telling me that the Confederate flag is the U.S.' swastika?

More importantly, why is Gabe mad. Does the Confederate flag personally offend you, Gabe? Does it actually have an impact on your life, your family or any other your background whatsoever?

I'm not saying people can't get offended for other races, cultures, or whatever, it's just the way that Gabe is choosing to come at everyone as if they should feel nothing BUT offended that's not really conducive to an actual conversation.

Enlighten me on how a guy from Toronto is more qualified than a guy from Texas to discuss how the Confederate flag is viewed in the south. You are awfully dismissive of Impy's post when it would seem that someone from the south would have a much better grasp on symbolism than you. We're not talking foreign policy where anyone from anywhere is on equal footing if they are well read. This is a more subjective topic. You are not treating it as such.

This is the other thing that stuck out at me.

I don't claim to be an expert, but I did get a dual degree in both film and history. My major focus was on early U.S. history and the Civil War. Again, this was just an undergraduate degree, but I don't necessarily think the Confederate flag itself is an evil thing.

That being said, I've lived in both the North and the South. What I found from those experiences was that, in living in the North, those who wore Confederate flags and waved them around, seemed to have more of a tendency to also be bigots. I feel way more weary seeing Confederate Flags in Indiana than I did when I lived in Texas.

I don't LIKE to see the Confederate flag in occasional every day use. I also don't really care much for Yeezus' misguided messages, but, all that being said, the Confederate flag goes right along with the imagery he's already been conveying on this tour. I'd be much more offended by seeing the Klan than the flag, that's just me. It's him selling the merch that doesn't sit well with me, but not in an offensive way so much as just making it more obvious that he's just trying to monetize the whole thing and cash in on controversy.

Except, of course, that there is no original "positive use" of the confederate flag. It was symbol of oppression from the day it was invented.

This is a preposterous statement.

 

[gvox]

Uh ... you're the one who brought it up in the first place.

No, I did not. I brought it up with regards to the Beastie Boys, using an analogy.

 

[PhilsFan]

No, I did not. I brought it up with regards to the Beastie Boys an analogy.

I should just drop this, but if you search Swastika in this thread, you brought it up talking about tattooing it all over your body. Page 29.

 

[cobl04]

On a lighter note, "Bound 2" shuffled on during my run this evening and I nearly lost it thinking about chickens.

Another reason Kanye rules: look at the Fallon performance. It features "chickens" twice and Uncle Charlie in full on SHABA DA TWEE TWEE TWEE mode, both hilarious, and yet the performance remains absolutely stellar.

 

[gvox]

This thread and Gabe's torch-bearing is really bugging me

Yay! This should be fun then, Ashley.

Why am I supposed to get riled up because a white Canadian is telling me that the Confederate flag is the U.S.' swastika?

I didn't call it the "US swastika", Ashley, I linked to an article that termed it "the American swastika".

More importantly, why is Gabe mad. Does the Confederate flag personally offend you, Gabe? Does it actually have an impact on your life, your family or any other your background whatsoever?

Do I sound mad, Ashley? Yes the flag does personally offend me, Ashley. And yes it may in fact have a significant impact on my life, my family, and any other background whatsoever, Ashley, at points in the past and/or occasions in the future. Take that for what you will, but you're presuming to know me when you really don't know much of me at all.

I'm not saying people can't get offended for other races, cultures, or whatever, it's just the way that Gabe is choosing to come at everyone as if they should feel nothing BUT offended that's not really conducive to an actual conversation.

I'm sorry you see it that way. To be fair however, what began all this is that I made a statement of my own opinion - notably, one that is being shared and discussed at some length in many circles right now - and it certainly did feel like several swooped in to continue it way further than it needed to. Having said that, the only person in this thread who might even remotely have a right to be offended at what I wrote would arguably be Imperor, and I believe we were able to hash out what we meant to say to one another without getting too carried away.

I don't necessarily think the Confederate flag itself is an evil thing.

And neither is a swastika, in and of itself. They both certainly do symbolize many evil things and atrocities committed under their banner, however.

What I found from those experiences was that, in living in the North, those who wore Confederate flags and waved them around, seemed to have more of a tendency to also be bigots.

Which observation I also noted in terms of people in Canada who have it (ridiculously so).

It's him selling the merch that doesn't sit well with me, but not in an offensive way so much as just making it more obvious that he's just trying to monetize the whole thing and cash in on controversy.

Which is where we're at with the discussion now.

This is a preposterous statement.

No it's not, as the historical record shows.

 

[gvox]

I should just drop this, but if you search Swastika in this thread, you brought it up talking about tattooing it all over your body. Page 29.

Still irrelevant to your comment about Kanye wearing a swastika, but anyways.

 

[bono_212]

No it's not, as the historical record shows.

The Confederate State of America were a new country - A new country needs a flag - They created a flag - That's their flag.

Nowhere on that flag does it remotely say, "Hey, we hate black people, we want them as slaves and by God, our sons and their sons and their sons better wave this flag in honor of our memory of hating black people too."

That's what I meant.

 

[Imperor]

That perfectly encapsulates my thoughts on the flag as well.

The only person in this thread who might even remotely have a right to be offended at what I wrote would arguably be Imperor, and I believe we were able to hash out what we meant to say to one another without getting too carried away.

Truthfully, I wasn't really offended. Your opinions are your opinions, and I learned a long time ago to not get riled up over other people's shit. I'm just usually pretty proactive when it comes to combating the prevailing wisdom of the Southern man as a backwoods, bigoted rube whistlin' Dixie and callin' black dudes "boy." For obvious reasons.

 

[gvox]

The Confederate State of America were a new country - A new country needs a flag - They created a flag - That's their flag.

Nowhere on that flag does it remotely say, "Hey, we hate black people, we want them as slaves and by God, our sons and their sons and their sons better wave this flag in honor of our memory of hating black people too."

That's what I meant.

And you'd be patently (and wrongly) oversimplifying it. The people who created that flag had every intention of enslaving and oppressing black people for as long as they saw fit...and passing that legacy on down to their sons too.

Last time I checked nowhere on the Nazi flag did it say they were going to exterminate all Jews, either.

 

[gvox]

I'm just usually pretty proactive when it comes to combating the prevailing wisdom of the Southern man as a backwoods, bigoted rube whistlin' Dixie and callin' black dudes "boy." For obvious reasons.

I absolutely don't believe you are that type, nor are the ones I know, nor are probably (hopefully?) what is now the majority of other Southern men.

However...if I'm in the South, and I see a white person proudly flying that flag..you better believe I give serious pause and inwardly question that person's beliefs. Absolutely I do.

 

[bono_212]

You know what, never mind, I really don't like the way that post came out, it really makes it seem like I have no problem with the Confederate flag, which isn't true. I just really disagree with the way you're coming across, it's as simple as that.

 

[cobl04]

Finally sat down and watched the Zane Lowe interview and I think I can safely say Kanye West is really misunderstood. I was amazed by it. He wants to do great things outside of music. Why is people's immediate reactions that that is delusions of grandeur, arrogance, etc? Shit I wish I had the sort of drive that he does. I thought his comment that he's spent 80% of his time on designing and 20% on music staggering. I like a lot of what he says. I can see where he's coming from when he's talking about his frustrations. He's not always totally thinking about himself either. At the start of part three - he says his music helps people believe in themselves, that he's just the shot in the morning to make you feel better. He's really one of a kind and I for one am an apologist who's strapping himself in for the ride.

Interesting too that he hates Gold Digger, he just knew he'd make bank off it. Hasn't been in the sets on the Yeezus tour.

 

[deep]

I'm totally fucking around with that comment and you know it. Come on, dude.



I don't disagree with any of this, and again, I'm playing devil's advocate. I'm not ignorant to what that war was fought over, so the correlation is completely understood. I've got a problem with proudly flying the stars and bars as a way of saying you condone enslaving black people. I don't if you're celebrating your Southern heritage. I personally wouldn't fly it for any reason, but folks have a right to do so.

Just reading these last few pages and as a person that has lived my whole life in Calif. I can't speak as a Southerner, I do have family that lives in South Carolina and they make similar arguments as you have.

I have to say I agree with gvox, I can't disagree with much of what he has written.
Some people fly that flag because they are red-neck bigots, some fly it under the premise of Southern heritage. One is an intentional asshole, the other an ignorant asshole. I'd say Kanye is both.

 

[deep]

You know what, never mind, I really don't like the way that post came out, it really makes it seem like I have no problem with the Confederate flag, which isn't true. I just really disagree with the way you're coming across, it's as simple as that.

It would really be easier if we all just agreed the Confederate flag is shit and never stood for anything honorable at all. Rationalizing otherwise is nonsense.

 

[cobl04]

"The Confederate Flag represented slavery... I took the flag and made it my flag. It's my flag now. Whatchu gonna do?"

Kanye West On Co-opting The Confederate Flag, Miley Twerking & His Soccer Dad Aspirations Pt. 3 - YouTube

 

[LemonMelon]

WHAT DA FUCK THEY GON SAY NOW

 

[cobl04]

Holy shit, you guys need to watch that clip I posted from about 4:25 for the next thirty seconds. He is genuinely angry. The look on his face is funny.

He also gets asked about a WTT 2 and he immediately says it's a possibility but that his focus isn't music, it's about making products.

 

[LemonMelon]

Apparently he can drop classics with only 20% of his attention engaged, so I'm not too worried about it.

 

[gvox]

If his focus is on products not music, then the Confederate flag thing is truly just him doing a new style/selling dope gear? So much for the statement! Lol

 

[LMP]

Oh my god it's tour merch.

 

[deep]

He's real proud that his pop-up store is making 14 bucks average per person, on par with beliebers

 

[bono_212]

Oh my god it's tour merch.

Lol!

 

[LemonMelon]

Savor it, gang. We're not getting this one again anytime soon:

Kanye West - Late - Live @ Camp Flog Gnaw Odd Future ( ofwgkta ) Carnival 11-9-13 in HD - YouTube

 

[the tourist]

Guess that whole burning cross (cuz, KKK) turning into a swastica (sold on ZOOTV!) is just peaches and cream compared to what Kanye is doing. Gabe must hate those U2 guys. I mean geez and crumbles!

Or how about when Bono, a white guy, utters the "N" word on a recording?

Dude's a flaming racist.

 

[gvox]

Don't be foolish. There were flaming crosses and kkk outfits sold as merch on the ZOO TV tour? Dynamite contribution there.

 

[the tourist]

No. There was just a VHS, DVD, and blu-ray. Digital merch lasts longer.

Anyway, it's funny that anyone would think that a black guy peddling Confederate flags is overly offensive after said black guy releases album titled Yeezus featuring song I am a God.

 

[gvox]

I missed the part where Bono said he was reclaiming the burning cross and kkk robe and repurposing them for his own marketing scheme. Was that on an easter egg?

 

[LemonMelon]

He did reclaim Helter Skelter though

 

[cobl04]

He did reclaim Helter Skelter though

Don't let Nipples read this. We'll get a 1,000 word dissertation on why it's U2's most embarrassing moment. I see enough double hyphens on Pitchfork.

 

[the tourist]

I missed the part where Bono said he was reclaiming the burning cross and kkk robe and repurposing them for his own marketing scheme. Was that on an easter egg?

I missed the part where every t-shirt has a speaker built in with Kanye West saying he's reclaiming the flag to the world audibly. Is that on the dry clean only tag?

Anyway, visuals speak louder than words in both cases.