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Old 11-06-2013, 01:48 PM   #441
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There's a really interesting conversation about perceptions of icons from one culture to another to be had here, but to dismiss my firsthand knowledge as "revisionist bullshit" is willfully obtuse. Also notice I didn't make any blanket statements in my post, liberally peppering in "for me" and "I think."

You're obviously entitled to your opinion, and it's worth taking into account for the discussion at large, but don't start with telling me I'm wrong when you have no clue what it's like down here. If you truly think people hold onto that flag as a symbol of wanting to own black people, I can't help you. I understand the perception of it from the outside and how the connotation is still heavy on the slavery, so try and understand when I tell you what it's like on the other side.
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Old 11-06-2013, 01:55 PM   #442
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I didn't attack anyone here. I spoke vociferously in denouncement of revisionist ideas. Phanan's involvement was nothing more than an over generalized attack of my character which was neither called for, nor did it add anything relevant to the discussion, as he himself notes.
My question was a general observation, nothing more. Not sure how you translate that into "an over generalized attack" of your character.

You honestly don't think you come across in a negative way on this board at times?
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Old 11-06-2013, 01:58 PM   #443
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Enlighten me on how a guy from Toronto is more qualified than a guy from Texas to discuss how the Confederate flag is viewed in the south. You are awfully dismissive of Impy's post when it would seem that someone from the south would have a much better grasp on symbolism than you.
Well that's a nice sidestep to the question, but anyways.

Since when was the discussion about how the Confederate flag is viewed in the south? Is Cobl, for instance, from Texas? Are you? So how does where one is from change the historical significance of an image if it is overwhelmingly negative? It's not like I make that perception up. It factually is.

But, speaking of what respected educators/historians who, unlike us, are actually from the south, have to say about the symbolism behind the display of the confederate flag, here is one example:

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Now that the Sons of Confederate Veterans have held their Sesquicentennial Ball, which may remain as Charleston's most widely reported commemorative event (The Washington Post's story drew more than 400 reader comments), perhaps the time has come to remember how 116 South Carolina historians have assessed the causes of secession. They researched and issued their statement near the peak of our state's great debate a decade ago over removal of the Confederate battle flag from the Statehouse dome.

The chief author was Charles Joyner of Coastal Carolina University. He is among three signers elected as president of the Southern Historical Association. They and the 113 other signatories speak with authority about this central issue.

Here's what the historians concluded a decade ago:

"The crux of the present controversy is not in the flag itself but in conflicting interpretations of the meaning of the Civil War. Some South Carolinians deny that the Civil War was fought over slavery, maintaining that it was fought over the rights of the states to control their own destinies. Slavery, they believe, was incidental.

"But when South Carolina delegates walked out of the 1860 Democratic National Convention in Charleston as a prelude to secession, their spokesman William Preston minced no words in declaring that 'Slavery is our King; slavery is our Truth; slavery is our Divine Right.' And a few months later when the signers of the South Carolina Ordinance of Secession issued their Declaration of the Causes of Secession, they specifically referred to the 'domestic institution' of slavery. They objected that the free states have 'denounced as sinful the institution of Slavery.' They charged that the free states had 'encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain have been incited by emissaries, books, and pictures, to hostile insurrection.'

"Moreover, in 1861, as President and Vice President of the Confederate States of America, Jefferson Davis and Alexander H. Stephens each candidly acknowledged that their new nation was created for the specific purpose of perpetuating slavery. In an address to the Confederate Congress in April of 1861, Davis declared that 'a persistent and organized system of hostile measures against the rights of the owners of slaves in the Southern States' had culminated in a political party dedicated to 'annihilating in effect property worth thousands of millions of dollars.' Since 'the labor of African slaves was and is indispensable' to the South's production of cotton, rice, sugar, and tobacco, Davis said, 'the people of the Southern States were driven by the conduct of the North to the adoption of some course of action to avert the danger with which they were openly menaced.'

"In a speech in Savannah, Stephens made it even clearer that the establishment of the Confederacy had 'put to rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions -- African slavery as it exists among us -- the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution.' He added, that the Confederacy was 'founded upon' what he called 'the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition.'

"Running successfully for governor of South Carolina in the critical election of 1860, Francis W. Pickens left little doubt of his support for disunion and even war to perpetuate slavery. His sentiments were echoed by his old friend Edward Bryan, who declared in the campaign, 'Give us slavery or give us death!' Pickens committed his state -- and ours -- to a ruinous course. 'I would be willing to appeal to the god of battles,' he defiantly declared, 'if need be, cover the state with ruin, conflagration and blood rather than submit.' These are not interpretations by historians; they are statements made at the time by Confederate leaders explaining what they were doing and why.

"After the war had been lost, and the Lost Cause was in need of justification, Davis and Stephens backed away from their original statements, casting the cause of the war in the context of 'states rights.' Their revisionist interpretation, in which slavery became not the cause but merely the 'question' resolved on the field of battle, still misleads many South Carolinians. The historical record, however, clearly shows that the cause for which the South seceded and fought a devastating war was slavery."
(source: http://www.postandcourier.com/articl...IVES/312269943)

I'm also quite aware that there are still many people (not necessarily Imperor, it sounds like he doesn't necessarily support it's display) down there who have a hopelessly romanticized view of it that blatantly ignores or at minimum tries to reframe it's history and meaning.
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Old 11-06-2013, 01:59 PM   #444
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Insufferable, as usual.
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:02 PM   #445
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Yeah, I don't support or denounce its display. I don't give a fuck as it doesn't affect me one way or another. Kind of an impartial observer.
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:04 PM   #446
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There's a really interesting conversation about perceptions of icons from one culture to another to be had here, but to dismiss my firsthand knowledge as "revisionist bullshit" is willfully obtuse. Also notice I didn't make any blanket statements in my post, liberally peppering in "for me" and "I think."

You're obviously entitled to your opinion, and it's worth taking into account for the discussion at large, but don't start with telling me I'm wrong when you have no clue what it's like down here. If you truly think people hold onto that flag as a symbol of wanting to own black people, I can't help you. I understand the perception of it from the outside and how the connotation is still heavy on the slavery, so try and understand when I tell you what it's like on the other side.

I am actually very much trying to understand you. But the simple reality is that the continued use of the flag either turns a willful blind eye to what it stood for or grossly tries to reshape it.

I've read similar comments online about how the flag doesn't really mean that, that secession was about choosing their own lifestyle, etc etc, and to cut to the heart of it, it's a load of bs. I'm not attacking you, so I'm sorry if it comes across that way, I'm attacking these ridiculous notions. To be fair you may in fact merely be referring to how some young people in the south now see the flag, and not all the other issues behind it, so I also apologize if there's a bit of spill-over there from other discussions.
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:06 PM   #447
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You honestly don't think you come across in a negative way on this board at times?
I never said that, I'd be the first to recognize it. However this is a fairly charged topic and I do tend to write passionately on such subjects. My beef was more you just parachuting in with no real reason other than to tell me this.
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:11 PM   #448
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Honestly, I'm surprised you feel so strongly against Kanye using the symbol.

Considering all the connotations and controversy surrounding it, it seems pretty clear to me that it's a hearty FUCK YOU to the stereotypical Confederate good-ol'-boy flag-fliers. I'm sure he knows damned well what statement he's making.
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:29 PM   #449
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Honestly, I'm surprised you feel so strongly against Kanye using the symbol. Considering all the connotations and controversy surrounding it, it seems pretty clear to me that it's a hearty FUCK YOU to the stereotypical Confederate good-ol'-boy flag-fliers. I'm sure he knows damned well what statement he's making.
Exactly. Which is way different than some white dude tattooing a Swastika to his arm.
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:34 PM   #450
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Honestly, I'm surprised you feel so strongly against Kanye using the symbol.

Considering all the connotations and controversy surrounding it, it seems pretty clear to me that it's a hearty FUCK YOU to the stereotypical Confederate good-ol'-boy flag-fliers. I'm sure he knows damned well what statement he's making.
I get that too, but to what end? Where does it lead?

That now the flag becomes the symbol of racial harmony? Is that even realistic or is he hopelessly deluding himself?

And I do think the swastika is a perfect example. If the Beastie Boys up and decide to start wearing Nazi armbands, does this work? What if they start selling them as tour merch?
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:35 PM   #451
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For more on how swastika aficionados are big dumb idiots, consult the Breaking Bad thread.
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:37 PM   #452
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Exactly. Which is way different than some white dude tattooing a Swastika to his arm.
It's actually not, although you may not recognize the reference I was making. Google "ManWoman". It's pretty much the same statement: reclaiming a symbol that was historically positive and then used for a brief period for horrible reasons, and trying to reshape it back to it's original use.

Except, of course, that there is no original "positive use" of the confederate flag. It was symbol of oppression from the day it was invented.
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:39 PM   #453
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For more on how swastika aficionados are big dumb idiots, consult the Breaking Bad thread.
Actually, no, that's not the type of person who I'm referring to by talking about people who want to reclaim the swastika for it's original benign and positive use.
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:41 PM   #454
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I'm totally fucking around with that comment and you know it. Come on, dude.

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I am actually very much trying to understand you. But the simple reality is that the continued use of the flag either turns a willful blind eye to what it stood for or grossly tries to reshape it.

I've read similar comments online about how the flag doesn't really mean that, that secession was about choosing their own lifestyle, etc etc, and to cut to the heart of it, it's a load of bs. I'm not attacking you, so I'm sorry if it comes across that way, I'm attacking these ridiculous notions. To be fair you may in fact merely be referring to how some young people in the south now see the flag, and not all the other issues behind it, so I also apologize if there's a bit of spill-over there from other discussions.
I don't disagree with any of this, and again, I'm playing devil's advocate. I'm not ignorant to what that war was fought over, so the correlation is completely understood. I've got a problem with proudly flying the stars and bars as a way of saying you condone enslaving black people. I don't if you're celebrating your Southern heritage. I personally wouldn't fly it for any reason, but folks have a right to do so.
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:42 PM   #455
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Well that's a nice sidestep to the question, but anyways.

Since when was the discussion about how the Confederate flag is viewed in the south? Is Cobl, for instance, from Texas? Are you? So how does where one is from change the historical significance of an image if it is overwhelmingly negative? It's not like I make that perception up. It factually is.

But, speaking of what respected educators/historians who, unlike us, are actually from the south, have to say about the symbolism behind the display of the confederate flag, here is one example:

I'm also quite aware that there are still many people (not necessarily Imperor, it sounds like he doesn't necessarily support it's display) down there who have a hopelessly romanticized view of it that blatantly ignores or at minimum tries to reframe it's history and meaning.
If you want to make the argument that it's tone deaf of people to embrace it, that's your prerogative and a reasonable stance. But that doesn't make it a Swastika, doesn't dispute what Impy has said, and has nothing to do with what Kanye is doing.

And I'm from the northeast. I don't see confederate flags very often, and when I do it's usually Civil War reenactors (I'm just a couple hour from Gettysburg, after all). But I've been to the south and have family there, and have in fact been to Texas as well, so it's not like I'm sheltered from what's going on there either. It's a different culture than the one you, as a Canadian, and I, as a Philly guy, are used to.
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:42 PM   #456
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I'm totally fucking around with that comment and you know it. Come on, dude.

Ok, ok.

I know that. But I just want to make sure that anyone else not in on the joke understands that I'm not talking about big dumb stupid idiotic neo-cons.
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:45 PM   #457
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It's actually not, although you may not recognize the reference I was making. Google "ManWoman". It's pretty much the same statement: reclaiming a symbol that was historically positive and then used for a brief period for horrible reasons, and trying to reshape it back to it's original use.

Except, of course, that there is no original "positive use" of the confederate flag. It was symbol of oppression from the day it was invented.
Tattooing is very different from wearing a shirt, first of all. I'm probably splitting hairs, but I just wanted to note that.

Second-of-ly, Kanye is a black guy. That's also different than people trying to wipe the slate clean on the Swastika. He's not reclaiming it as a historic positive and trying to reshape it back to its original use.
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:46 PM   #458
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I get that too, but to what end? Where does it lead?
It doesn't have to lead anywhere - it leads to Kanye being Kanye and doing something that people might think is outrageous.

(Although I do get the point about it being more of a concern that it's on tour merchandise, rather than him just wearing it while getting into his fancy-ass expensive car as a big hearty "HA HA EAT IT, RACISTS!")
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:50 PM   #459
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But that doesn't make it a Swastika,
I believe that it's worse (if we really must rank these things (ugh)) than a swastika. Flat out, if only for the fact that you can offer a few explanations for a swastika (especially if it's not turned on it's side).

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And I'm from the northeast. I don't see confederate flags very often, and when I do it's usually Civil War reenactors (I'm just a couple hour from Gettysburg, after all). But I've been to the south and have family there, and have in fact been to Texas as well, so it's not like I'm sheltered from what's going on there either. It's a different culture than the one you, as a Canadian, and I, as a Philly guy, are used to.
As have I - both been and have family on all 3 sides (parents and marriage) there.

The funny thing about the confederate flag is you sometimes see it up here like it's almost a style thing for some people. But invariably these are hopelessly ignorant and by all appearances if not outwardly racist, not exactly embracing any other cultures either lol.

So it's a bit of a sticky point - if you see one around here it's an instant reminder that this person who is displaying it is somehow (ridiculously, because they are from some shithole town in central Ontario or something) trying to identify with all the shit that goes along with it. It's quite a polarizing symbol.
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:52 PM   #460
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For more on how swastika aficionados are big dumb idiots, consult the Breaking Bad thread.


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