Hip-Hop Talk II

[onebloodonelife]

honest is great; fuck all the haters. future's really growing into his own as an artist. there's way less autotune too, since I know that was your issue earlier, cobbler.

 

[Imperor]

To be fair, I only hate him for derailing and eventually murdering the Outkast show.

 

[onebloodonelife]

haha it's ok, I'm just being snarky and stanning out

 

[iron yuppie]

So I'm trying to acquaint myself with some of the classics of this genre, which is a major blind spot for me musically. So far I've acquired Paul's Boutique, Madvillainy, and Aquemini. Any other suggestions would be welcome. The only stipulation I'll make is that I don't think I will ever care for the gang-banger, Compton-style stuff.

 

[LemonMelon]

Go buy Black Star's debut album, today.

Then investigate the first 20 or so on this chart:

http://rateyourmusic.com/customchar...d_genres=t&include=both&limit=none&countries=

 

[cobl04]

So I'm trying to acquaint myself with some of the classics of this genre, which is a major blind spot for me musically. So far I've acquired Paul's Boutique, Madvillainy, and Aquemini. Any other suggestions would be welcome. The only stipulation I'll make is that I don't think I will ever care for the gang-banger, Compton-style stuff.

You should definitely check out A Tribe Called Quest's The Low End Theory and Nas' Illmatic. Both are bona-fide classics, and both have distinct jazz influences.

You should also check out DJ Shadow's Endtroducing. It's completely instrumental and constructed entirely from samples and it's a masterpiece.

 

[LemonMelon]

Oh shit, I take for granted that not every single person with interest in hip hop has heard Illmatic. Yeah, listen to that if you haven't, I think it's the greatest hip hop album ever.

 

[iron yuppie]

Thanks guys. It seems Kendrick is a pretty socially-conscious guy as well - maybe I'll look into him. Black on Both Sides seems to pop up on a lot of lists as well.

 

[cobl04]

Oh shit, I take for granted that not every single person with interest in hip hop has heard Illmatic. Yeah, listen to that if you haven't, I think it's the greatest hip hop album ever.

But Aquemini is your favourite, right? Illmatic is definitely in my top five. Every time I hear NY State of Mind, my jaw drops. It's absolutely astonishing.

Thanks guys. It seems Kendrick is a pretty socially-conscious guy as well - maybe I'll look into him. Black on Both Sides seems to pop up on a lot of lists as well.

Kendrick is brilliant, you can't go wrong there. Black on Both Sides is in my top five, and I think you'll love it. Mos Def's lyrics are outstanding on that one, Mathematics in particular is mind-blowing.

 

[cobl04]

And I haven't heard the Madlib Shades of Blue record, but that should be of particular interest to you iYup, he remixed Blue Note records.

 

[LemonMelon]

Kendrick raps about Compton gangbanging, but in a detached, socially conscious way.

 

[iron yuppie]

And I haven't heard the Madlib Shades of Blue record, but that should be of particular interest to you iYup, he remixed Blue Note records.

Yeah, I've heard that. Really good shit there.

 

[LemonMelon]

But Aquemini is your favourite, right? Illmatic is definitely in my top five. Every time I hear NY State of Mind, my jaw drops. It's absolutely astonishing.

It's complicated. I know my top 5 is some order of Illmatic, Aquemini, Madvillainy, MBDTF and Black Star, but ordering them is nearly impossible.

Illmatic and Aquemini are 1a and 1b though, the former the most consistently great album of its kind and the latter with the highest peaks of any rap album.

 

[cobl04]

Aquemini, 36 Chambers, Madvillainy, Liquid Swords, Illmatic is my personal top five. I think in terms of pure rapping prowess, 36 Chambers is probably the best. Pretty much every single verse is flawless and RZA's production is perfect.

 

[onebloodonelife]

wow these suggestions are so ny biased...

west coast: regardless of how you feel about "Compton-style," it's inexcusable to not listen to NWA, Snoop's Doggystyle, and just about anything DJ Quik has done. not saying you have to like it, but the west coast has been so influential that it's a travesty not to acquaint yourself with some of it.

southern rap: big krit is newer, but in the vein of what you're after, more "socially conscious" stuff (gawd that phrase makes me cringe now haha). bubba sparxx's deliverance is also phenomenal and never gets talked about. ugk, three 6 mafia, scarface, geto boys, and z-ro are all necessary as well.

 

[LemonMelon]

IYup loves jazz and doesn't want any ignant shit, making east coast rap a logical entry point.

 

[cobl04]

I will back up Cassie though, there is definitely a huge amount of west coast material worth hearing. You may not dig the likes of Dre's 2001 iYup, but yeah, Doggystyle rules, and you should at least get a Tupac best of or something.

 

[onebloodonelife]

IYup loves jazz and doesn't want any ignant shit, making east coast rap a logical entry point.

well aware of what he likes. I'm sick of seeing east coast this and that when there's plenty of rap from elsewhere that's not (again I fucking hate this phrase too because it's classist as fuck) "ignant shit."

 

[LemonMelon]

Meh, it goes both ways. I get tired of idiots on KTT and Boxden calling artists who put effort into their lyrics corny, dusty, etc. It's not classicism or ignorance, it's a matter of taste. We all just happen to agree a lot in here, so discussion heads east.

Obviously, if you've never heard Ridin' Dirty, you should stop what you're doing and go do so. Just trying to be helpful within this specific context.

 

[LemonMelon]

And if we're talking about thoughtful lyricism from the south, you can't overlook CunninLynguists. Their discography is amazing.

 

[cobl04]

I'm a bit of an in-between-er. I get very annoyed when people dismiss all rap as "drugs, guns, money, bitches" etc and will point to hip-hop that makes a complete and utter mockery of those claims. But the reality is there is a lot of rap that is about that side of things, and to be honest, most of it is really fucking awesome. Gin n Juice is of course a west coast gangsta rap classic that deserves to be put up there with the best hip-hop tracks.

But then you have the modern-day stuff that might come under the term 'ignant' (which I've never even heard of until just now)... Waka Flocka Flame and all that sort of music. I know Cassie derives a lot of enjoyment from it but personally I cannot stand it. I've tried, but I just can't.

 

[LemonMelon]

As far as "ignant" music goes, I hate trap, I'll be upfront about that. In a vaccuum, it's listenable in small doses, but I hate how thoroughly it has permeated the genre. I like its sonic minimalism but can't support its encouragement of lyrical mediocrity and repetitive arrangements. God knows I've tried. It's just not my thing.

The new Waka song is boring, he needs Lex back.

 

[cobl04]

I'm not a fan either, the production sounds too tinny and superficial to me (although Backseat Freestyle is pretty trap, and I like that beat).

But I will say it's a lot of fun live. The Run the Jewels x Earl x Danny Brown gig I saw had a fair bit of trap in the latter two's sets and it was good fun.

And BADBADNOTGOOD do an absolutely fucking wicked cover of TNGHT's Bugg'n. Slaughters the original.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOSNuuiiK00

 

[iron yuppie]

Alright, I've got Black Star, Low-End Theory, and Illmatic cued up in addition to the ones I mentioned before. Thanks for all the recommendations.

Oneblood, I'm not trying to insinuate that any iteration of this genre has any more depth or value than any other. I know that something like NWA comes from a genuine place of social commentary. That type of rap just strikes me as highly visceral and reactive where I tend to gravitate toward music that is more reflective. So just a matter of taste, really.

 

[cobl04]

Be sure to post your thoughts, very interested to see what you think of them, but...

highly visceral and reactive

aren't these the exact reasons you liked Yeezus so much?

 

[iron yuppie]

I did like Yeezus a lot, yeah. But I think it's more that it struck me as an intelligent record, which is not a word I would have used to describe Kanye before it. There's a critical angle on something like "Blood on the Leaves" that is more, shall we say, clever than "Fuck the Police."

 

[cobl04]

Hmm, I think you're overrating the former and underselling the latter (no offence intended, just a discussion!). I love Yeezus a great deal. But if you look at Blood on the Leaves... it's about a relationship. I love the song, but aside from the brilliant Nina Simone sample, I don't see what makes it more clever than Fuck the Police.

Now Fuck the Police is an easy target, because the song essentially kicks off with Ice Cube's "fuck the police / coming straight from the underground" but it's the context which makes it so thrilling and so visceral. NWA and that album were literally the first hip-hop group to make music that dealt so strongly with those issues. It might not be particularly subtle, but that's what makes it so great. It's an expression of sheer frustration and anger.

 

[iron yuppie]

I'm already out of my depth in this discussion, so I'll get back to you once I've done some listening.

 

[onebloodonelife]

Alright, I've got Black Star, Low-End Theory, and Illmatic cued up in addition to the ones I mentioned before. Thanks for all the recommendations.

Oneblood, I'm not trying to insinuate that any iteration of this genre has any more depth or value than any other. I know that something like NWA comes from a genuine place of social commentary. That type of rap just strikes me as highly visceral and reactive where I tend to gravitate toward music that is more reflective. So just a matter of taste, really.

my frustration wasn't aimed at you at all.

this is a discussion we've had a few times in here and LM and cobbler both know very well where I stand. I could honestly talk all day about language and rap and the issues I have with describing marginalized voices as "intelligent" vs "ignant." I live everyday of my life immersed in this culture and have a degree in pop music studies, where a good portion of my writing was about rap, so I also have the academic background to back up what I'm saying about those specific things in relation to society and rap. I'm really passionate about the portrayal of the genre and that can step into overzealousness at times, so I apologize for throwing you into the fire right away iYup, that wasn't my intention.

 

[LemonMelon]

Sounds like I would be getting way in over my head if I got into this discussion too far with Cassie. I don't think the two sociolinguistics courses I've taken would be of much help.

Not that I disagree with her to any significant degree. I've spent the last five years trying to educate myself about the genre so that I could, in turn, represent it properly to people who still think it's all guns, cars and bitches (and place those subjects into a greater societal context because honestly I think they possess a certain cultural interest).