What is Truth?

[Discoteque]

Pilate asked, "What is truth?"

It's THE big question.

Bono said: "it's the big question...and it still is..."

Thoughts?

 

[Kieran McConville]

Originally posted by Discoteque:
Pilate asked, "What is truth?"

It's THE big question.

Bono said: "it's the big question...and it still is..."

Thoughts?

Yeah, it is the big question. Many (most? all?) people tend to justify it in terms of being true to something/someone - family, friends, job, a cause. But ultimate truth - that's a more challenging proposition.

------------------
"It wouldn't be a cry from the heart
or a high, hurtin' wail
we could look down and laugh now
I'd be all together
I'd be totally removed..."

 

[theSoulfulMofo]

"The truth,the truth! There is no truth. These men... they make it up as they go along. They're the engineer's of the future. They're the real revolutionaries." -- Alex Krycek, The X-Files: Tunguska.

-bleh. Contingent, but not relevant. Always thought it was a funny quote though.

 

[hippy]

Originally posted by Discoteque:

Bono said: "it's the big question...and it still is..."

Truth is defined by each individual. What is true for me may not be true for you. I am wary of "universal truths" that are put forth by the different religions of the world. It seems that trying to impose "truth" has gotten many people in trouble.

I think Bono made a good statement...truth still is the big question.


------------------
"A Bono approved event is a good event!"

You can dream, so dream out loud!

"The way to be optimistic is not to shut your eyes and close your ears." -Bono

Create Light, Create Unity, Create Joy, CREATE PEACE!

 

[MadelynIris]

Truth is defined by each individual. What is true for me may not be true for you. I am wary of "universal truths" that are put forth by the different religions of the world. It seems that trying to impose "truth" has gotten many people in trouble.

Is there a God? True/False

 

[Thermopylae]

Truth is the Divine Center - it is GOD...it is from whence we came and shall we return...in it is absolute Love, Beauty, Light..etc. It is where Christ resides, and from where He speaks to us. It is our own psyche and body that limit our perception of Truth, but with the example of Christ - we see how we can live a life that is True.

Our flesh is of this world - dictated and confined to natural laws. For if we could control all physical surroundings to accomodate every whim - there would be no free will, since it is the environment, the world, which brings to use obstacles that cause the sprit to chose a right and wrong way. But our spirit is eternal, and the Life of Christ, a life of Love, is the best way to see that eternal part of ourselves. He teaches us that once we begin on that path He opened - the Old Laws are no longer necessary. Because when we live of life of Love, it is by definition a life filled with Truth, Beauty, Compassion, Light...etc.

We will also find - that when Absolute Truth is perceived, it is Universal and by definiton cannot open to interpretation.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

Thermopylae said it more succinctly than I could have hoped to. But I guess I would add that I think we HAVE to have ultimate truth SOMEWHERE. Else, what is all our "personal truths". It becomes relativism. Your opinion is no different than my opinion. Therefore there is no reason to form any opinion or to believe in anything because it's all perception. In the end, I think that leads to nihilism.

Jesus said I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the father except through me. And those are really provative words. Either he's right...or he's delusional.

Problem for me is...I've grown up hearing all this stuff and even to type it now, I feel my brain clicking off and going "yeah, yeah, blah blah." The question for me, I guess is, "what does that mean???" I know I want truth, I am seeking truth. But how in the world does Jesus being truth work itself out into daily life? It certainly doesn't give me the answers to all the questions I have. It doesn't make me perfect. I does not give me the right to be sanctimonious towards anyone.

I think part of our hesitance to acknowledge that there could be Ultimate Truth is that it has been used by just about every movement and religion to oppress others. "We have Ultimate Truth and if you aren't on our side, you are going to hell." It is used as a license to hate and a license to judge. And I just cannot see how that can be right. Jesus never hit people over the head with judgement. He was the epitome of love. He was hated by the religious establishment, the guardians of truth as it were. So what does that mean?

lol. I have no idea. These are the questions I am asking myself. All I have come to so far is that humility must be the order of the day. In myself, I'm quite aware that I am pretty small and can't begin to fully fathom all the ins and outs of this. But that doesn't mean I should give up and stop asking.

Listening to U2 has only strengthened my resolve to keep nagging at this question. Because I see them doing the same. And maybe it is a place that has to be believed to be seen.. I dunno.

Anyways...that's me rambling.

-sula

 

[Thermopylae]

Sula - I would recommend to you the books "The Jesus Mysteries" and "Jesus and the Lost Goddess" by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. (If you have not read them already - all CS Lewis books are great too) They are about the original Christians and how/why they lost out to the Church.

Be warned - if your faith is NOT rock solid - I would not read these books. But if your faith is so strong you are able to look past the literal translations of the Bible in your quest for Truth - then I would say read them and prepare for an enlightenment you could not have even imagined possible

.

It is amazing reading and has taken me closer to Christ than my traditional meditations/ studies have taken me. I still go to Catholic Mass - there is a "worldy" comfort I receive there. I also find it wonderful to be around so many others who are looking to live a better life.

Did you know - there used to be another part to Christianity in the early days? Religion and the study of the Gospels was the beginning - the indoctrination to Truth, but not yet complete Truth. (to get us on our path - so to speak) But then they would teach the Inner Mysteries of Christ - the Christ beyond the historical/mythical figure - the Christ within us.

Such teaching would obviously be dangerous to those not ready, for the last thing we need is a bunch of people with a false notion about what it means to be God. (Hitler, Koresh, James Jones types come to mind)

I feel U2 gives off that early Christian type of vibe. That there is more to Christianity than the Bible and the Body of Christ, more than what traditional religion offers. These are helpful tools - but not the entire way of understanding Truth.

- what a cool forum eh? Good idea!

 

[spanisheyes]

Jesus said in Matthew 24:35, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away"...speaking about the Word of God. So we must be careful when we say that there is more to Christianity than the Bible. It is the authoritative Word of God, that contains within it's pages the absolute truth, and it should challenge everyone to look again into it's pages and absolutely understand what it is saying as the supreme Truth, because as mentioned, Jesus also made the radical statement when He said, that He was the Way, The Truth, and the Life, meaning the only Way, the only Truth, and the only Life...I wouldn't want to dismiss this word so easily, but investigate it to its primal sense with not just my head knowledge, but with my whole heart as well, and see what becomes of this scripture when applied.

I would also throw caution to the wind in ever putting someone or something before God and His Son, Jesus...and in this forum, that would mean U2. I love this band, and the words they speak and sing, but would never see them as Gospel, or even the truth unto salvation. We must all keep U2's faith in perspective...as a means possibly, but not an end.

Chris

[This message has been edited by spanisheyes (edited 01-06-2002).]

 

[Thermopylae]

Originally posted by spanisheyes:
Jesus said in Matthew 24:35, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away"...speaking about the Word of God. So we must be careful when we say that there is more to Christianity than the Bible. It is the authoritative Word of God, that contains within it's pages the absolute truth, and it should challenge everyone to look again into it's pages and absolutely understand what it is saying as the supreme Truth, because as mentioned, Jesus also made the radical statement when He said, that He was the Way, The Truth, and the Life, meaning the only Way, the only Truth, and the only Life...I wouldn't want to dismiss this word so easily, but investigate it to its primal sense with not just my head knowledge, but with my whole heart as well, and see what becomes of this scripture when applied.
B]

The "Bible" as we know it had considerable rewrites - is missing critical pieces - and was packed as sort of a "greates hits" compilation by a bunch of European men 500 to 600 years after Christianity began. There is more "danger" in believing every word of the Bible as complete Truth than seeking to know the real - eternal meaning behind the parables and events of Christ's life.

Also - what is interpreted as "word" can also be interpreted as Knowledge - Greek word LOGOS. "Heaven and Earth will pass, but the Wisdom of Christ will last forever."

That makes more sense doesn't it? How dare we confine God and all his power to a bunch of words of uncertain authorship and compiled by those with uncertain motives.

The Bible is an essential book on the path to enlightenment - but you must look past the words and look for the Real meaning. Why get caught up in Creation - how long it took, what was Jesus' sister's name...etc. ? Instead - we should meditate on his life - how he lived it - how can we poor humans be more like him while we are on this earth?

If early Christians had their way - it was quite possible the writing of Plato would have been our Old Testement? But the Church burned and killed all the men, women and children who followed the orginal "Way of Christ." They were more like the real thing...can you imagine Jesus going around burning and hanging people?

And do you consider the Old Testement word for word Truth? Is God really an angry - jealous God of a small tribe of mankind in the desert? I think obviously the Old Testament had some flaws - hence the birth of Christianity.

Let us not fall into the same legalistic nightmare that governed Israel in Christ's time - or the fervor in the Middle East that makes men fly planes into buildings...

We must learn to live a life of Love and Compassion in the highest sense...to live a life enlightenment that transcends this world. This is salvation - and this is what Christ brings us...

The song "One" is coming to mind now...

 

[hippy]

Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
I think part of our hesitance to acknowledge that there could be Ultimate Truth is that it has been used by just about every movement and religion to oppress others. "We have Ultimate Truth and if you aren't on our side, you are going to hell." It is used as a license to hate and a license to judge. And I just cannot see how that can be right. Jesus never hit people over the head with judgement. He was the epitome of love. He was hated by the religious establishment, the guardians of truth as it were. So what does that mean?

This is what I was trying to say in my previous post. I am wary of the "universal truth" expressed by religions because I have seen it grind people down. I have seen people attack others in the name of love. I have been attacked by the religious establishment. That is why I have to question if that is the right way. I believe that there is one God, but I don't believe that His way is to oppress and beat people down, kill them, trample them into the mud, leave them eternally oppressed just because of a "truth".

Jesus was persecuted by the religious establishment. And that gives me hope. Because He was on the outside, I have faith that the "outside" is not the bad place many religions say it is.

------------------
"A Bono approved event is a good event!"

You can dream, so dream out loud!

"The way to be optimistic is not to shut your eyes and close your ears." -Bono

Create Light, Create Unity, Create Joy, CREATE PEACE!

 

[DebbieSG]

Thermopylae, I really like your definition of Truth, I think as Christians we can be confident that we can find it as we imitate Christ and let him into our lives. What I know of Christ is what I know of the Truth. I learn about him through the Bible, prayer, and other Christians.

But this statement:
"And do you consider the Old Testement word for word Truth? Is God really an angry - jealous God of a small tribe of mankind in the desert? I think obviously the Old Testament had some flaws - hence the birth of Christianity."

I disagree with, coming from Jewish background. Yes, He really is a jealous God (angry because humans are so ofen rebelious) so saying because he will have no other Gods before him. He is the Almighty. He is also a God of steadfast love and faithfulness... many psalms including 40 speak of it. He really did choose a single man, Abraham, to found a single tribe, the Israelites, to be his people as a "light unto the nations." The Old Testament is a unified history that shows a deepening relationship with God who, while punishing for rebelion, promises (in the book Isaiah) a redeemer who will make a new covenant. All of this--struggling Israel and Jesus sent to save--is a part of God's plan. We can learn a lot about ourselves and how we are responding to God by reading the stories in the Old Testament. Try reading The Bible Jesus Read by Philip Yancey (another one to add to the list

) about this.

About the Bible as the Word of God, I have two slightly conflicting views. The first is I believe it is, as we have it, the infallible Word of God. Despite man's less than perfect record, those who translate the Bible I believe are guided by the Holy Spirit in this work and what they accomplish is according to God's purposes.

I also believe a lot has been left out over the ages, perhaps the more mystical texts you were referring to. The clue is that one verse says that scripture is "milk" indicating that hard food is somewhere else. We do seem to have a hard enough time just learning the scriptures that we do have! I wonder what could help us mature?

 

[Thermopylae]

Just for the record - I do think there is value in the Old Testament. But we are no longer suppose to live by those laws. An eye for an eye will eventually leave everyone blind.

Also - coming from a Jewiss background this may or may not surprise you - the early Christians were not seen as a new religion at all - they were seen as mystical Jews. The took the story of Genesis and Exodus and built on that myth. Jesus and Joshua have the same translation in Hebrew.

The Promised Land = Paradise

Crossing the River Jordan = Babtism

The Jews wandered for 40 years after crossing the river, Jesus went into the wilderness for 40 days...

In order for the Jews to enter the Promised Land, Moses had to die.

In order to enter eternal salvation (the True Promised Land - we must die.

These are just a FEW of the Correlations. It can be argued that the original Christians did not believe they were starting a new religion - but just interpreting the old one in Neo Platonic way (Plato's influence on this part of the world was profound)

I really cannot argue about the Bible being the Absolute Word of God. While I have problem believeing Jesus is Truth - I must say the the God I believe in is eternal - and He does not have a tempor nor does he feel jealous because he lacks love. He is Love.

But what I was orginally trying to say - in regards to Truth. The Bible can be debated - the Absolute Truth of God, of living a life of Love - cannot be debated.