someone wise once told me, "God is not your genie"

[foray]

He's not. And how often I still forget this.

foray

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so bounce, basketball, bounce

 

[Diamond The U2 Patriot]

Foray-
I like that.
Very true.

Diamond

 

[hippy]

That is very true...

And I do tend to forget that and expect him to work miracles all the time. I think I'm going to write that in my journal and on a post-it and stick it on my mirror...

Thanks for the reminder!

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And love is not the easy thing...the only baggage you can bring is all that you can't leave behind.

BONO: FOAD, Lawrence. Just FOAD. (LOL, Mona)

Create Light, Create Unity, Create Joy, CREATE PEACE!

 

[truecoloursfly]

I remember feeling smacked upside the head the first time I heard the phrase "petitionary prayer." *ping* epiphany. It isn't my place to petition God. Only to understand God moving in my world. (She moves in mysterious ways...) Sucks sometimes, though...

Deb D

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take some time out and entertain the questions of a
longing heart -- Steve Beard

the greatest frontman in the world - by truecoloursfly: http://www.atu2.com/news/article.src?ID=1575

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by truecoloursfly:
I remember feeling smacked upside the head the first time I heard the phrase "petitionary prayer." *ping* epiphany. It isn't my place to petition God. Only to understand God moving in my world. (She moves in mysterious ways...) Sucks sometimes, though...
Deb D

Actually, it's not wrong to petition God. In fact, Christ tells us to petition our Father.
I believe that God gives his children what theyy ask for, as long as it is in his will for their lives.
However, you can take that way too far. If any of you know about this "Jabez Prayer" idealogy that is so popular now, you know what I'm talking about.

 

[foray]

80s, can you enlighten me on the Jabez prayer, please? A friend of mine is into it and I don't know what she is on about. She is a new Christian from a Charismatic church, so is this a Charismatic thing?

foray

 

[Discoteque]

I agree with the commercialism part on this, Sula. My friend gave me the book and I stil haven't cracked it open...but I'm interested in what it has to say. I guess I'll determine then...

Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
The commercialism of that whole "Jabez prayer" thing really turns my stomach.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

The commercialism of that whole "Jabez prayer" thing really turns my stomach.

 

[foray]

What's this whole Jabez thing about then? All I know is that it goes like this, "Lord, that you would bless me indeed and enlarge my territories. That your hand would be with me, that you will keep my heart from evil. In Jesus' name i pray. amen!"


[This message has been edited by foray (edited 02-13-2002).]

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by foray:
What's this whole Jabez thing about then? All I know is that it goes like this, "Lord, that you would bless me indeed and enlarge my territories. That your hand would be with me, that you will keep my heart from evil. In Jesus' name i pray. amen!"
[This message has been edited by foray (edited 02-13-2002).]

That wasd the prayer. It was prayed by Jabez, a minor Biblical character (he received less than half a page in the Bible). He asked for blessings, and God gave them to him. Now, people are thinking that if they keep saying that prayer over and over, that God is somehow "duty bound" to bless them, often with material blessings. The guy who wrote the book has said that prayer every day for the last 30 years.
I think it';s perverting the word. God did not include that verse in teh Bible so that people could use it as a model for selfish praying, but many people use it that way.
The "Prayer of Jabez" movement turns my stomach.
God blesses me; everyday I'm alive is a blessing.

 

[Lilly]

Originally posted by foray:
He's not. And how often I still forget this.

foray

Good statement there foray. It's something that when I was younger (I know I'm 17, I am young, but I'm talking about 13) I would plea to God for anything. But as I aged I realized God didn't care if I had a nice bike or whatever. In fact, He must have seen it fit that I received nothing I begged to Him for until I figured that out. God is great isn't He?

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It's the puppets that pull the strings.

*You're very kind. Most people laugh when they see my googly eye.*

+fabulous+

The Edge, it's a direct object.

 

[foray]

I've also made it a habit to end my prayers with "if it is Your will, Lord" though I admit that sometimes when I say that, it gives me shivers as to just what He'll do

foray

 

[BAW]

Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
The commercialism of that whole "Jabez prayer" thing really turns my stomach.

Thank you for having the guts to say that Sula. I've felt that way for quite some time now. I hate the idea of a mass marketed prayer that encourages us to not only ask God for material possessions, but to expect them as well.

 

[BAW]

Originally posted by foray:
He's not. And how often I still forget this.

foray

Thanks foray, I need to be reminded of this far too often when things don't go my way.

[This message has been edited by Bono's American Wife (edited 05-04-2002).]

 

[David the Great]

Actually - I disagree. God has pretty much put His power at our disposal.

Says in Jn 15 -' If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask whatever you WISH and it will be done for you'

Wishes are what genie's give. But usually you only got 3 or so - with God you get an unlimited amount.

Yes - there is an accountability in the end. But let's look at the upside. We can feed the hungry, create all sorts of miracles if we are willing to simply take God at his promises. And they are pretty extraordinary.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by David the Great:
Says in Jn 15 -' If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask whatever you WISH and it will be done for you'
.

But david, does that mean that everything you selfishly desire will be given to you? I've always interpreted that thusly:
Abiding in God and God abiding to you is the perfect union. As Christians, we are to renew our minds daily. As we grow, and as we seek his face more and more, our desires simply become an expression of His own desires for us. So, I interpret that verse as "As long as your will is bent to God's will, God will give you everything you wish as long as it is God's desire for your life".

 

[David the Great]

I pretty much agree with your interpretation of Jn 15 (U280sisBest). It is a question of being in a place where what we want is what God wants.

But there is quite a measure of autonomy. We are given the power of choice - what we do pray for, what we don't. And I think for someone who is totally devoted to Him, God will answer prayers that are generally not in the religious paradigms of most church-thinking.

For example (and I'm not saying I'm a great saint - but God does answer my prayers) I've prayed for money, sex, power and for God to work destructive things and seem them answered.

If you have the will of God as number 1 in your heart - He makes His power available to you is what the verse is saying, I suppose.

But also if you look at Matt 7 Jesus says that even people who He doesn't really know are going to do mighty works. Also check out 1 Cor 13. So answered prayer doesn't necessarily mean you are totally 'right', does it? Otherwise none of our prayers would be answered.

 

[foray]

Originally posted by David the Great:
For example (and I'm not saying I'm a great saint - but God does answer my prayers) I've prayed for money, sex, power and for God to work destructive things and seem them answered.

I tend to think that just because those things happened (the sex, the power, the money, the destructive things), doesn't mean that God answered them.

But also if you look at Matt 7 Jesus says that even people who He doesn't really know are going to do mighty works.

If you would kindly point out the verse... cos I'm getting worried here. My Matt 7 says nothing of the sort. "people who He doesn't really know"?

foray

 

[David the Great]

Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

(Matt 7:22-23)

Also - I think it's a really good thing actually to pray for the issues that generally the church has a stigma about. (sex, money, power).
Better that than running off and trying to fulfill natural needs illegimately. Gives God a chance to either:

1. Answer your prayer
2. Give you wisdom on the matter.

So if I pray for a tall blonde girl as a partner God might provide such (it's happened) or give me insight into why I don't need that.

Part of the problem that people run away from the church is that we are given a view of God that makes natural inclinations wrong. Some people have high sex drives, some people are designed to have lots of money and give it away, some people are built to rule.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by David the Great:

Also - I think it's a really good thing actually to pray for the issues that generally the church has a stigma about. (sex, money, power).
Better that than running off and trying to fulfill natural needs illegimately. Gives God a chance to either:
1. Answer your prayer
2. Give you wisdom on the matter.
So if I pray for a tall blonde girl as a partner God might provide such (it's happened) or give me insight into why I don't need that..

But David, do you believe the Bible teaches that we are not to have sex unless we're married? If so, do you think God would provide you with an opportunity to do something that is sin?

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 05-20-2002).]

 

[David the Great]

The inevitable question which I've thought about a lot - is it permissible to have sex before marriage?

Well - like Paul says 'all things are permissible, but not all edify.'

Try and concentrate on the big statements like 'love the LORD your God' and 'Love your neighbour as yourself'.

Actually in terms of ethics the bottom line is 'do not judge and you will not be judged - the measure you use will be measured to you'
. This was echoed by Paul as 'How blessed is the man who does not condemn himself in what he approves' at the end of Romans 14 (a very pertinent chapter which tells us that some have the faith to certain things that others don't (which doesn't necessarily mean they are better - they just have more 'faith' or a rugged conscience).

One of the wisest things I ever heard was 'major on the majors and minor on the minors'. In other words - focus on the important things.

Some parts of the Bible need to be read in context. It's not a set of rules - the New Covenant is about growing up and being in a place to make your own decisions and learning from them. Life is a much better teacher than a fellow with a Bible in his hand.

The thing that was thrown at me when I was heavily part of a fundamentalist-type forward thinking movement was that in the Bible sex before marriage is called fornication (specifically in the New Testament) and therefore is specifically disallowed. But not only is it probably not true that that is what the word ('porneia') originally meant but also that idea goes iagainst the whole spirit of the New Covenant - for example Jesus' ministry - which was more concerned with looking at the heart behind an action rather than the action on face value.

In some situations to sleep with someone may be a really horrible thing to do. For example if they are in a culture where it just isn't the done thing and their virginity is the most valuable thing they have because marriage is the basis of their society (as was the case in say, Pauls time - women had no rights and had to be attached to someone be it husband or father or slave master). But nowadays circumstances have changed. Women have rights - most people do have sex before marriage. It's not a big deal. Love your neighbour as yourself. AS you would have others treat you so treat them.

It's true that the Bible talks about man and woman becoming 'one' - and perhaps we are messing with something that shouldn't be messed with. I honestly don't have an answer to that - but my gut feeling tells me I'm doing the right thing. (or maybe it's my gut?)

But either way - you are taking a risk. Sex before marriage is a big issue in the church - but personally I'd actually try and get involved with the outside world and shine whatever light I may have at the risk of making a few mistakes (and at the same time learning). Have you ever considered that perhaps it's a sin not to go out there and discover your sexuality? The whole concept of men being virgins is not something the Bible really gets into.

David, for example, had quite a few wives and concubines. It wasn't a sin until he stepped into someone else's territory and slept with their wife (and worse).

If you look at christianity in the broadest terms - most people who have the Holy Spirit would have had sex before marriage. A lot may have been divorced as well.

I don't believe in wasting your life chasing a perfectionist model that prevents you from actually helping people who might be helped in the vain attempt to keep your hands clean.

Still - good chance I'll change my mind. What scares me is that there are so few people with answers on this particular issue - and it is a question in a lot of people's minds.

'This ain't no party...those heebie jeebies' etc. Discotheque : I KNOW!

Probably when it comes down to I just believe God is big enough to fix whatever problems I may cause myself or others if it is done in the right spirit.

[This message has been edited by David the Great (edited 05-23-2002).]