McPhisto: A Failure

[oliveu2cm]

Originally posted by in te domine:
I can almost guarantee that I saw some interview where he said in effect that they were stepping back from being this rock band that was going to "change the world". It was too much pressure for them. In fact, if I remember correctly, it was also mentioned that this move was very necessary in order to keep the group together... Something to that effect.

Yeah this is correct- they couldn't be the saviors of the world anymore, so to speak, because they were being CRUCIFIED for it!! Which is why it boggles my mind why people wanted them to continue doing that! they would have crumpled and died! Look how R&H was received- I know many fans liked it but the critics racked them over the coals- and in order to survive, U2 had to ADAPT. Here's a quote then:

"It's a con! It's a con. It's just a way of putting people off from the fact that it's a heavy mother. It's probably our most serious record - and yet it's got the least serious title. And it just fooled everyone. They all thought we were, you know, we'd lightened up.
Which is totally untrue. We're miserable bastards." - Bono on Achtung Baby Video, 1992

I think introspection would show that they hadn't changed. They just ADAPTED- so they really were still trying to "change the world"- but this time they didn't make it so obvious.


And I still stand by my statement earlier that their lifestyles didn't contradict their "beliefs" (which I do think is hard to pin down, I mean Larry will barely discuss his)- that they didn't live like the stereotypical rock band and uh.. the fact that bono dressed up as a devil but would said "mock the devil and he will flee from you" sort of explains his stance on Macphisto.

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Not suckin on my thumb
Staring at the sun

www.u2takemehigher.com

Macphisto Society: "Evil shouldn't look this good"

"The way I might look at you" ~Adam

[This message has been edited by oliveu2cm (edited 01-25-2002).]

 

[Matthew_Page2000]

I still don't buy that U2 really believed that they had all the answers in the 80's. We're talking about a band whose most famous Christian song is called "I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For." A song with as many lines about reveling in earthly delights as it has nods to Jesus' sacrifice.
U2, or at least Bono, Edge and Larry may have attempted to live what others perceive to be a good Christian lifestyle briefly during the October era but they ditched that lifestyle for most of the 80's because it didn't suit them. Bono and Edge in particular resented the restrictions that some of their fellow Christians wanted to place on their lifestyle. Not that there weren't obvious signs even in the early U2 that Bono wasn't the saint some imagined him to be. Anyone who has listened to the lyrics to An Cat Dubh knows that it's a song about casual sexual conquest. Anyone who has poured through early U2 promo shots from the Boy era will find shots of Bono and Edge drinking and the occasional shot of Bono smoking.
The band said repeatedly that there was satire in ZooTV but also that they were being more honest about who they were. Bono said that the Fly was just a gross exaggeration of one aspect of his personality. As I stated above the band drank and smoked in the eighties. Bono has all but admitted to cheating on Ali at least once. Adam was arrested for having enough marijuana to merit a trafficking charge. Larry shacked up with his girlfriend and proceeded to impregnate her twice without marrying the woman. Which isn't to say that they were hedonists by any means. They were merely normal human beings. But their behavior probably never lived up to the Right Wing Christian ideal. (I don't mean Right Wing Christian in the pejorative sense by the way.)
BUT, and here's the salient point, they were careful to keep most of that sort of behavior and some of their attitudes and beliefs out of the public eye. They were in a sense dishonest, in the lies of omission sort of way. Bono, a man the Edge called a "card" acted more pious and dour than the Pope on a particularly starchy day and conservative Christians loved him for it.
Many conservative Christian U2 fans never forgave U2 for letting the cat out of the bag with Rattle and Hum. Bono drank a beer during a segment in the film. Bono said the f-word during Sunday Bloody Sunday. Larry swore. Adam smoked a lot. That 95% of the world has enjoyed an alcoholic beverage and an outburst of profanity at some, (or many) point(s) was irrelevant to these fans. Some chose to ignore the signs that U2 weren't the band or people they wanted them to be until Achtung Baby and ZooTV made it impossible to fool themselves anymore. At that point these fans insisted that U2 had "changed."

In conservative America it's perfectly all right to cheat on your wife, drink, smoke, have casual sex, beat your kids, get divorced, watch violent films, masturbate to pornographic films and to swear until the cows come home so long as you act pious in public. You can be forgiven for any sin venial or mortal if you'll only publicly and fulsomely express you gratitude and love for "the Lawd Jesus Christ." Any sin that is except for honesty. U2 were honest enough to admit what many fans already knew, that they smoked and drank and swore and that they had penis's and occasionally used them. That was too much for some Christians.
To many conservative Christians image is everything.

MAP

 

[Diemen]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
As far as U2's beliefs, I would have to say you're wrong there. remember, we're talking about the 80s here, and in that decade, U2 hadn't quite developed thw whole "we don't look to us for answers cuz we have questions also" attitude. Nope, in the 80s, U2 did claim to have answers.

I have to disagree with you here, 80s. U2 never claimed to have the answers. People claimed that U2 had the answers, but if you look at interviews and what the band members themselves said, it was clear that they very strongly believed that they didn't have the answers.

October lines: "I try to sing this song out, I try to stand up, but I can't find my feet" - Now this does get followed by "but only in you I am complete," but these lines here show that they're struggling to find their spiritual identity. True, they know that the ultimate saviour is God, but that's not really an answer, that's just a fact. Then there's "Oh Lord, if I had anything, anything at all I'd give it to you" once again, they do acknowledge God as the most high, but there's still the uncertainty, the struggle to find one's self. "If I had anything" sounds a lot like Bono felt he didn't have anything significant to offer to God.

There was an interview with Bono in 1987 in which the interviewer asked him if it felt strange having people look to him for answers. Bono replied (and I'm paraphrasing slightly, my memory's a little fuzzy):

"Yeah that's what I've been trying to say, that I don't have all the answers, that really I have more questions than answers...and the road I'm going down has many twists and turns, and sometimes you get thrown off...in any case I don't think I'm the best poster boy for God - if ever there were a sinner, there is in me."

U2 have NEVER claimed to have the answers. The media gave them that aura and U2 certainly played with it, but they themselves didn't believe that. They had the persistance to keep asking the relevant questions, to keep trying to find what they're looking for, but it's quite obvious from interviews and even their music that they didn't themselves believe to have the answers.

Granted, U2's earlier music was a little stronger politically than their later stuff, but really U2's music has always been about asking the poignant and relevant questions, not providing the answers.

--Looking back on this, some of it might seem to be argumentative. I certainly don't mean it to be that way. I'm just trying to disagree with sufficient reason.

[This message has been edited by Diemen (edited 01-26-2002).]

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by Matthew_Page2000:
In conservative America it's perfectly all right to cheat on your wife, drink, smoke, have casual sex, beat your kids, get divorced, watch violent films, masturbate to pornographic films and to swear until the cows come home so long as you act pious in public. You can be forgiven for any sin venial or mortal if you'll only publicly and fulsomely express you gratitude and love for "the Lawd Jesus Christ." Any sin that is except for honesty. That was too much for some Christians.
To many conservative Christians image is everything.
MAP

This is the last time ya'll will hear from me on this subject, but I did need to set this record straight.
Matthew_Page2000, the last sentence of teh above paragraph is correct, I think. Yes, there are those Christians who consider image to be the all-important thing. Some go to church on Sunday and live like the Devil the rest of the week. On that sentence, you stated "many", which I believe is accurate. However, you started the paragraph out by making a blanket statement about all Conservative America. And I've got to tell you that you're just wrong on that. In Conservative America, it's NOT perfectly all right to cheat on your wife, drink, smoke, have casual sex, beat your kids, get divorced, watch violent films, masturbate to pornographic films and to swear until the cows come home so long as you act pious in public. Yes, some of that goes on, but Conservative beliefs are that those bad things are wrong whether you do them in public or in private. The fact that those things are done by some does not mean that it is looked upon as "perfectly alright". I'll tell you the truth; all my close friends are conservative Christians, and every single one of them thrives to be in the will of God, and to be holy as he commanded us. So, your comments about Conservative America are not correct.