Jesus, Jew, Mohammed, it's true...

[biff]

I apologize in advance if someone already has made this point, but Bono's message seems clear to me. Immediately following the words "Jesus, Jew, Mohammed, it's true" Bono says "all sons of Abraham." Thus, it seems to me that Bono is just making the obvious point that "it's true" that Christianity, Judaism and Islam all derive their origin from Abraham, not that all three religions are true. If Bono had meant that all three religions are true, wouldn't he have used the words "they're true" instead of "it's true." The use of the phrase "it's true" seems to indicate that one must look to the next phrase to determine what is true. The next phrase is that they are "all sons of Abraham."

Nice post, Danprieto, and wow, it's your first after being registered for two and a half years! What self control!

 

[MissMoo]

I just watched the documentary 30 days, where they had a Christian live with a Muslim family and they went out of their way to talk about the fact that Jews, Muslims, and Christians are all the same branch of religion. They all believe in the same God. The difference (and I'm sure there is more to it) is the belief in Jesus being the son of God. The Muslims think of him as a prophet. I thought it was very interesting that the Christian had no idea that this was true. So, perhaps that is Bono's point, all three believe in the same God.

 

[The Disciple]

I just watched the documentary 30 days, where they had a Christian live with a Muslim family and they went out of their way to talk about the fact that Jews, Muslims, and Christians are all the same branch of religion. They all believe in the same God. The difference (and I'm sure there is more to it) is the belief in Jesus being the son of God. The Muslims think of him as a prophet. I thought it was very interesting that the Christian had no idea that this was true. So, perhaps that is Bono's point, all three believe in the same God.

I watched the show, it was very good TV, and I wish more people would have good dialogue with those of different faiths.

Having said that, the Imam at the first Mosque he went 2 kind of belittled him when explaining the differing beliefs between Islam and Christianity as it appeals 2 Jesus. He asked the guy, "If God is running the show, he can't die, like Jesus did....." and never bothered 2 let the guy explain his belief as 2 why Jesus is Messiah. Christians believe that the Divine Nature departed from Jesus during his Passion in order 2 allow him 2 die, otherwise, he would/could not have died.

We also believe Jesus 2 be the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14, which is the God that Muslims claim 2 worship. However, Jesus clearly stated that before Abraham was, "I AM." He proclaimed his divinity.

In closing, if Islam does not believe Jesus and God 2 be One and the Same, Islam does not worship the same God as Christianity.

 

[BVS]

In closing, if Islam does not believe Jesus and God 2 be One and the Same, Islam does not worship the same God as Christianity.

and what about the Jewish?

 

[80sU2isBest]

and what about the Jewish?

Their "God the Father" is exactly the same as the Christian "God the Son", but they don't believe in God the Son, Jesus, so I would say they don't believe in the whole of who God is.

 

[BVS]

Their "God the Father" is exactly the same as the Christian "God the Son", but they don't believe in God the Son, Jesus, so I would say they don't believe in the whole of who God is.

But that's the same logic The Disciple used to claim it's not the same God.

I just find it interesting that in today's world it's much easier to discredit or bash the Muslim religion than it is the Jewish religion.

 

[The Disciple]

But that's the same logic The Disciple used to claim it's not the same God.

I just find it interesting that in today's world it's much easier to discredit or bash the Muslim religion than it is the Jewish religion.

The sad fact is that Judaism and Christianity are seen by a huge portion of the Islamic following as obstacles... and I'm not just talking radicals here.

The Muslims believe they and only they have a right to the Holy Land, and many preach of the eradication of the Jewish people and state. The radicals take it a step further and group America together with Israel as enemies of Islam.

I don't see the majority of Muslims as evil, and I don't care how/who they worship. I don't demonize them, I tolerate them, and count several as friends.

However, if Jesus claimed His Divinity, and I believe in Him as God, and either a Jew or Muslim do not.... we must agree 2 disagree, and in my mind, we're not worshipping the same God. It's fine 2 talk about Our similarities, but that is the point where I believe the paths become very clear and split, 4 lack of a better word. Ultimately, the death, resurrection and Divinity of Christ, and His message of Grace is what I believe in.

Good debate!

 

[sulawesigirl4]

The Muslims believe they and only they have a right to the Holy Land, and many preach of the eradication of the Jewish people and state.

I think you are making the all-too-common error of equating "Muslims" with fundamentalist Muslim Arabs. Having lived in the largest Muslim country in the world (Indonesia) for most of my childhood and living in a majority Muslim country in Africa, I can tell you that the statement you made above is incorrect. I don't know a single person, including my boyfriend who is a devout Muslim, who would lay a claim to Israel. The fighting between Palestinians and Israelis does not include all those who follow Mohammed.

 

[The Disciple]

I will gladly try 2 pull up some online resources and post links 4 them here.... stay tuned.

 

[BVS]

I will gladly try 2 pull up some online resources and post links 4 them here.... stay tuned.

Still waiting...

 

[The Disciple]

Ok... sorry 4 the absolute delay/forgetfulness. Instead of posting links, (which may be seen as narrowing it down to one or another Islamic group's belief), try the following:

Look up (google or yahoo) Islamic beliefs about the Al-Mahdi. EVERY Muslim group, radical or not, teaches these prophecies. I have moderate Muslim friends and this is something that is STILL taught by their Imam.

Similar 2 the Jews believing their Messiah will appear and Christians believing Jesus will return, Muslims believe that THEIR Messiah will come, and 2gether with a returning 'prophet' Jesus, who by the way will deny He was EVER the Son of God, will ultimately re-claim Jerusalem, kill all the Jews, and convert the WORLD 2 Islam.

If U study Bible Prophecy, specifically Daniel and Revelation, U will come 2 realize that the Bible teaches a future Antichrist will set up a 7 year "Peace" treaty with Israel, which he will violate halfway through, and he will sit in a still-to-be-rebuilt Jewish temple and claim HIMSELF God (similar 2 Today's New Age beliefs). He will also persecute all those who believe in God and His Son, and Revelation talks of the souls of the beheaded believers crying for justice in the Heavens, before God's final return.

Muslims believe the Al-Mahdi will come and set up a 7 year period as well, but it also goes in2 detail as 2 how Al-Mahdi will behead the Jews and nonbelievers during this period, ushering in this era of "peace."

There are MANY bothersome beliefs about the Al-Mahdi, I will provide U two links here, but feel free 2 research, get back with me.

http://www.al-shia.com/html/eng/articles/mahdi/almahdi/01.htm

http://www.jerryrobinson.org/antichrist_outline.html

 

[financeguy]

'There are MANY bothersome beliefs about the Al-Mahdi'

To me, there are MANY bothersome things about the links you have posted.

Are you seriously putting these forward as credible sources?

 

[The Disciple]

My friend, go 2 a Mosque, and ask them these questions Urself. I picked random sites, each from different sources, found by doing a search as I instructed. No actual Mosque is stupid enough 2 publicly by internet post their beliefs regarding this radical belief, but please ask Muslims, go and find Muslim sites, and prove me wrong. Prove they don't believe this, which is the culmination of their faith, just like Jesus' return is the culmination of Christian faith.

 

[financeguy]

Sorry, but I find this entire freaking thread just bizarre.

When has Bono held himself out as the world's most devout, or most theologically correct Christian? Never!

It's not as though he's on the Gospel channel preaching his beliefs to the devout, he's just a rock star who happens to profess Christian beliefs, that's all.

 

[The Disciple]

Sorry, but I find this entire freaking thread just bizarre.

When has Bono held himself out as the world's most devout, or most theologically correct Christian? Never!

It's not as though he's on the Gospel channel preaching his beliefs to the devout, he's just a rock star who happens to profess Christian beliefs, that's all.

I agree with U on that point, but regarding the other issues, we'll have 2 peacefully agree 2 disagree.

 

[financeguy]

My friend, go 2 a Mosque, and ask them these questions Urself. I picked random sites, each from different sources, found by doing a search as I instructed. No actual Mosque is stupid enough 2 publicly by internet post their beliefs regarding this radical belief, but please ask Muslims, go and find Muslim sites, and prove me wrong. Prove they don't believe this, which is the culmination of their faith, just like Jesus' return is the culmination of Christian faith.

I'm actually not disputing any of that, I know little of Muslim beliefs to be honest.

But you have stated that Revelations prophesies that an Anti-Christ will usher in a seven year peace deal with Israel.

I'm sorry, but that is just YOUR INTERPRETATION of certain sections of Revelations, that is all.

There are many Christians who would have totally and utterly different interpretations, surely you are aware of this?

 

[The Disciple]

I'm actually not disputing any of that, I know little of Muslim beliefs to be honest.

But you have stated that Revelations prophesies that an Anti-Christ will usher in a seven year peace deal with Israel.

I'm sorry, but that is just YOUR INTERPRETATION of certain sections of Revelations, that is all.

There are many Christians who would have totally and utterly different interpretations, surely you are aware of this?

Sure, it's a common movement called Preterism, which states that ALL of the Bible's prophecies were fulfilled by 70 AD, and 4 the Scripturally-inclined, is a theory with more holes in it that a golf course.

If U don't believe in Jesus' coming return OR his deity, I personally don't believe U 2 b a Christian.

Secondly, if U study the prophecies, and most people who do agree on the major issues, even though they may be slight differences in interpretation, it's amazing 2 c how many are being fulfilled during this era. The Christian can live with hope in an era of hopelessness, because all signs point 2 Our Redemption as very near. It's ultimately a message of hope, not doom, but we don't deny whose grip the world is in right now, and it's not God's, that's 4 sure...

 

[financeguy]

Sure, it's a common movement called Preterism, which states that ALL of the Bible's prophecies were fulfilled by 70 AD, and 4 the Scripturally-inclined, is a theory with more holes in it that a golf course.

If U don't believe in Jesus' coming return OR his deity, I personally don't believe U 2 b a Christian.

Secondly, if U study the prophecies, and most people who do agree on the major issues, even though they may be slight differences in interpretation, it's amazing 2 c how many are being fulfilled during this era. The Christian can live with hope in an era of hopelessness, because all signs point 2 Our Redemption as very near. It's ultimately a message of hope, not doom, but we don't deny whose grip the world is in right now, and it's not God's, that's 4 sure...

'I personally don't believe U 2 b a Christian'

You're correct - I am not. Neither did I say I was.

Actually, people like you scare me a lot. You sound like one of these End-Times crowd.

 

[BVS]

will ultimately re-claim Jerusalem, kill all the Jews, and convert the WORLD 2 Islam.

Muslims believe the Al-Mahdi will come and set up a 7 year period as well, but it also goes in2 detail as 2 how Al-Mahdi will behead the Jews and nonbelievers during this period, ushering in this era of "peace."

There are MANY bothersome beliefs about the Al-Mahdi, I will provide U two links here, but feel free 2 research, get back with me.

http://www.al-shia.com/html/eng/articles/mahdi/almahdi/01.htm

http://www.jerryrobinson.org/antichrist_outline.html

Somewhat contradictary don't you think. First you say he'll kill the Jews and convert the world. Next you say he'll behead all the non-believers. Kinda hard to convert when you kill them all.

I have many Muslim friends and this isn't what they're taught. Your grasp on the Muslim religion is fairly weak.

Oh and your links are laughable at best.

 

[financeguy]

Secondly, if U study the prophecies, and most people who do agree on the major issues, even though they may be slight differences in interpretation, it's amazing 2 c how many are being fulfilled during this era. The Christian can live with hope in an era of hopelessness, because all signs point 2 Our Redemption as very near. It's ultimately a message of hope, not doom, but we don't deny whose grip the world is in right now, and it's not God's, that's 4 sure...

Ok, I'll take the bait.

Looking at most of the major Christian denominations, e.g:-

Roman Catholics

Methodists

Lutherans

Anglican Church

Calvinists
etc, etc.

Are you saying that most of these denominations would agree with your interpretations?

And if they do not, are you saying they are not true Christians?

 

[financeguy]

I think the Disciple was been watching the Omen and it has affected the balance of his mind.

 

[melon]

Studying the history of apocalypticism, I'm mostly amused by the fact that everyone thought Jesus was going to return around the turn of the *last* millennium--A.D. 1000. That's really what kind of kicked all this off, mind you. So Jesus didn't come, as they predicted, so we spent the next 850 years doing illogical numerological formulas, where the only thing they all had in common was that "the end" would always occur in the near future.

So after the Millerites goofed up and the world didn't end in 1854, exploding into the modern-day Seventh-Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses, they came up with the "ingenius" idea of always putting "the end" in the near future, but never setting a date for it. Hence, modern apocalypticism.

I'll be honest: I'm willing to believe in a Second Coming, but I'm not willing to believe in the militant way it's supposed to happen. The theology behind the book of Revelation actually originates from Zoroastrian theology--which was supposed to be the details of the *First* Coming that the Pharisees expected. Jesus doesn't live up to the Pharisees' expectations of being a warrior Messiah that vanquishes their enemies, elevates them to a worldly kingdom of infinite power, and leads to Judgment Day, so when He is far more peaceful than expected, they reject Him. So what do we do? We shift their "warrior Messiah" theology into the Book of Revelation, and, essentially, become "Christian Pharisees." Great logic, eh? I'm waiting for Jesus Part II to be as peaceful as the last time, essentially pissing off the modern-day Pharisees expecting a bloodbath.

But I've always found it puzzling how an infinitely loving God and His equally infinitely loving Son would stoop to such a murderous zeal. But that is, essentially, the theology that we deem "the end of the world."

Melon

 

[The Disciple]

Studying the history of apocalypticism, I'm mostly amused by the fact that everyone thought Jesus was going to return around the turn of the *last* millennium--A.D. 1000. That's really what kind of kicked all this off, mind you. So Jesus didn't come, as they predicted, so we spent the next 850 years doing illogical numerological formulas, where the only thing they all had in common was that "the end" would always occur in the near future.

So after the Millerites goofed up and the world didn't end in 1854, exploding into the modern-day Seventh-Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses, they came up with the "ingenius" idea of always putting "the end" in the near future, but never setting a date for it. Hence, modern apocalypticism.

I'll be honest: I'm willing to believe in a Second Coming, but I'm not willing to believe in the militant way it's supposed to happen. The theology behind the book of Revelation actually originates from Zoroastrian theology--which was supposed to be the details of the *First* Coming that the Pharisees expected. Jesus doesn't live up to the Pharisees' expectations of being a warrior Messiah that vanquishes their enemies, elevates them to a worldly kingdom of infinite power, and leads to Judgment Day, so when He is far more peaceful than expected, they reject Him. So what do we do? We shift their "warrior Messiah" theology into the Book of Revelation, and, essentially, become "Christian Pharisees." Great logic, eh? I'm waiting for Jesus Part II to be as peaceful as the last time, essentially pissing off the modern-day Pharisees expecting a bloodbath.

But I've always found it puzzling how an infinitely loving God and His equally infinitely loving Son would stoop to such a murderous zeal. But that is, essentially, the theology that we deem "the end of the world."

Melon

Remember that he comes 2 STOP Armageddon in the Bible, not cause it. The Antichrist, False Prophet and his followers are the only ones that have something to fear from his return at the apex of Armageddon. Plus, I don't agree in setting dates, Jesus taught against that and was VERY clear that only the Father knew the moment of his return.

Which brings up another point. As Jesus ascends in2 Heaven, the angels tell the Disciples that they will see him return in the SAME MANNER that he ascended.... in the clouds. Which is how Jesus' Revelation to John on the Island of Patmos describes him.... a Conquering King (This time around, instead of the humble servant he was the first time), coming on a white horse.

As a believer, are you of the line of thinking that states that Revelation is strictly a "poem" describing the plight of the Jews in John's era, and is NOT meant as Prophecy for the future?

 

[The Disciple]

I think the Disciple was been watching the Omen and it has affected the balance of his mind.

Good movie, theologically flawed.

Honestly, if U have knowledge of Bible Prophecy and would like to post Ur interpretation of it, please do. I'm all 4 good debate. However if all U do is bash/criticize other people's interpretation without giving yours, that doesn't make sense.

As 4 your question regarding other interpretations of Bible Prophecy, I don't believe them 2 b any less "Christian" than those that believe like me. I'm not a close-minded extremist. We simply have a different interpretation.

But the major leaders of all these denominations have all gone on record and stated there are certain pillars of Christianity that one must believe if they claim to believe in Jesus as the Son of God. His promise 2 return 4 us one day is a key one.

 

[BVS]

Someone's good at avoiding the questions.

 

[The Disciple]

Somewhat contradictary don't you think. First you say he'll kill the Jews and convert the world. Next you say he'll behead all the non-believers. Kinda hard to convert when you kill them all.

I have many Muslim friends and this isn't what they're taught. Your grasp on the Muslim religion is fairly weak.

Oh and your links are laughable at best.

Find some links and post them stating differering beliefs about the Al-Mahdi, or give me an article where an Imam goes on record stating they don't believe this. Otherwise, if U want be P.C. about everything, in hopes of not "offending" any religion, go right ahead and live blindly.

 

[The Disciple]

'I personally don't believe U 2 b a Christian'

You're correct - I am not. Neither did I say I was.

Actually, people like you scare me a lot. You sound like one of these End-Times crowd.

I wasn't referring 2 U directly. I was speaking in general terms. As 4 Ur final comment, it's amazing how "tolerant" people like U are of everybody except the people that think the God they follow is the only God, and Jesus is the only way. People like U are called hypocrites.

 

[BVS]

Find some links and post them stating differering beliefs about the Al-Mahdi, or give me an article where an Imam goes on record stating they don't believe this. Otherwise, if U want be P.C. about everything, in hopes of not "offending" any religion, go right ahead and live blindly.

You're ridiculous. Why should I post anything? You made the completely false comment

The Muslims believe they and only they have a right to the Holy Land, and many preach of the eradication of the Jewish people and state.

and haven't been able to back it up. Has nothing to do with PC, it has everything to do with you not understanding and believing the crap you've been fed about the Muslim religion.

 

[melon]

As a believer, are you of the line of thinking that states that Revelation is strictly a "poem" describing the plight of the Jews in John's era, and is NOT meant as Prophecy for the future?

The Pharisees believed themselves to be strong believers, but Jesus still didn't come as they expected. They didn't realize that prophesies can be metaphorical, instead of literal.

The book is rightfully questionable. During the evolution of the New Testament canon, it was one of the last books added. For the first 300 years of Christianity or so, the book was not part of any unofficial canon, and was only widely accepted between A.D. 325 and A.D. 397, when the canon was officially finalized and closed. In fact, back in the day, it was argued that the Book of Revelation is too heavily part of the Montanist heresy, which mostly based its theology on the idea that "the end is coming soon" and the idea of personal revelations. It was the association with Montanism that made the Church fathers hesitant to include it in the canon, and perhaps they questioned whether it was genuinely inspired or written by the Montanists themselves. After all, look at the dozens of Gnostic texts that weren't included in the canon that all claim to have occurred during the time of Jesus.

Even during the Reformation, it was noted that, while Luther questioned and ultimately discarded the "Apocrypha" in the Old Testament as "inauthentic" (although the Dead Sea Scrolls were shown to contain those books), he also questioned the authenticity of the book of James and Revelation. Had his mood swayed a different direction, they may very well have been excluded from the Protestant canon. Instead, Luther made one very grievous mistake: while translating the Bible into German while he was imprisoned, he chose to illustrate one book alone, and that was the Book of Revelation and sparked a 500+ year obsession that is still very reminiscent to Montanism--but since the Catholic Church was now unable to stamp out heresy in Europe, this obsession with the end of the world has continued to this day.

With history in mind, I find obsessions with "the end of the world" to be quite histrionic. The Zoroastrian apocalypse, at least, was more compassionate. A comet would smash into the Earth. The souls in hell in the center of the Earth would be purified through fire, while the good souls on Earth would feel nothing. In the end, those in hell and those permanently frozen in stone who were equally good and bad in life ("Hamistigan"--the equivalent of Purgatory) would all enter Heaven, along with the righteous.

Melon

 

[The Disciple]

Bonovox, 4 ur info, I have not been "FED" anything, my friend... I don't believe in institution of religion, it gets in the way of God.... and what I have learned about Islam has been from the dozen or so friends I've had in my life who are MUSLIMS themselves, imbecile.

Most of them are moderate, but even those have confirmed what is taught in Islam regarding Israel. Did U also know that Islamic law teaches that any land that has been conquered by Islam, only 2 b lost (Jerusalem, for example), is the duty of all of Islam's followers 2 help reclaim?

Ever read a book called The Trouble With Islam: A Muslim's Call for Reform In Her Faith? I happened 2 have met the author and had a very good conversation with her that ended in us praying 4 each other and the extremists and evildoers who use our respective 'religions' 2 kill or judge in the name of "God." But she, a lifelong Muslim, attacks tough issues like Anti-Semitism in Islam, the absolute DEGREDATION of Women in Islam.... Issues that U, apparently, have no knowledge of, yet pretend 2 know everything that matters about it. Talk about an issue when U actually KNOW what U're talking about, or U'll just end up looking as ridiculous as U just have over the last week.

I would say Ur location.... "in a state of denial" explains Ur personality just fine.