Jesus, Jew, Mohammed, it's true...

[financeguy]

Double post

 

[starsgoblue]

16This is why the fulfillment of God's promise depends entirely on trusting God and his way, and then simply embracing him and what he does. God's promise arrives as pure gift. That's the only way everyone can be sure to get in on it, those who keep the religious traditions and those who have never heard of them. For Abraham is father of us all. He is not our racial father--that's reading the story backwards. He is our faith father.

I'm thinking more and more that this hits the nail on the head of what Bono's trying to say. Because he what he entirely says is: "Jesus...Jew...Mohammed...It's true. All children of Abraham. If only we could coexist"



I want to thank everyone who has respectfully and thoughtfully discussed this. I wasn't too sure what I thought earlier...it's taken some reflection. Even if I didn't agree with everything said in here, it's still given me pause to think about why I didn't agree and then dig further. So thanks.

 

[Bad Templar]

Why?

Perhaps I'm tired of this discussion.

I've just realised how absurd all this arguing really is.

Bono's views on Christianity, like U2's music is beginning to decline in relevance and resonance with me quicker than I expected.

The U2 and Bono of 1987 when I discovered them as a teenager are not the same as they are today....nor am I.

I thought I had more of a connection with the spirituality of Bono and U2 fans... I probably needed it once, but no more. Nor do I seem to be needed anymore.

Take care believers and non-believers and God bless.

 

[BVS]

The U2 and Bono of 1987 when I discovered them as a teenager are not the same as they are today....nor am I.

I thought I had more of a connection with the spirituality of Bono and U2 fans... I probably needed it once, but no more. Nor do I seem to be needed anymore.

Take care believers and non-believers and God bless.

I find it to be ashame that you've lost belief in U2 and its fans.

I think the Bono of now and the Bono of 87 is actually more vocal about his beliefs in God. The proof is in All Because of You, Yaweh, When I Look at the World, Grace, etc. Also quoting Bible verses during the Elevation tour.

But if you choose to reject that it's your choice. Not that I'm saying that you are, but if you were, it would be a shame. I hope that you realize the balance of spiritualaity and the quest for peace!

 

[briarrose]

I find it to be ashame that you've lost belief in U2 and its fans.

I think the Bono of now and the Bono of 87 is actually more vocal about his beliefs in God. The proof is in All Because of You, Yaweh, When I Look at the World, Grace, etc. Also quoting Bible verses during the Elevation tour.

I just found this thread yesterday and was thrilled to see people talking about this. I was so upset after hearing Bono say those words, but after reading this thread, it's given me a new perspective. I watched the Slane Castle DVD the other day and he seemed much more spiritual during the Elevation tour than now. I have no idea where his heart is, I just hope and pray that he hasn't given up his faith.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Ok, but what do we make of Romans 4 in light of this discussion then? (Message version translation, items in bold are my emphasis)

Romans 4
Trusting God
1So how do we fit what we know of Abraham, our first father in the faith, into this new way of looking at things? 2If Abraham, by what he did for God, got God to approve him, he could certainly have taken credit for it. But the story we're given is a God-story, not an Abraham-story. 3What we read in Scripture is, "Abraham entered into what God was doing for him, and that was the turning point. He trusted God to set him right instead of trying to be right on his own."
4If you're a hard worker and do a good job, you deserve your pay; we don't call your wages a gift. 5But if you see that the job is too big for you, that it's something only God can do, and you trust him to do it--you could never do it for yourself no matter how hard and long you worked--well, that trusting-him--to-do-it is what gets you set right with God, by God. Sheer gift.

6David confirms this way of looking at it, saying that the one who trusts God to do the putting-everything-right without insisting on having a say in it is one fortunate man:

7Fortunate those whose crimes are carted off,
whose sins are wiped clean from the slate.
8Fortunate the person against
whom the Lord does not keep score.


9Do you think for a minute that this blessing is only pronounced over those of us who keep our religious ways and are circumcised? Or do you think it possible that the blessing could be given to those who never even heard of our ways, who were never brought up in the disciplines of God? We all agree, don't we, that it was by embracing what God did for him that Abraham was declared fit before God?

10Now think: Was that declaration made before or after he was marked by the covenant rite of circumcision? That's right, before he was marked. 11That means that he underwent circumcision as evidence and confirmation of what God had done long before to bring him into this acceptable standing with himself, an act of God he had embraced with his whole life.

12And it means further that Abraham is father of all people who embrace what God does for them while they are still on the "outs" with God, as yet unidentified as God's, in an "uncircumcised" condition. It is precisely these people in this condition who are called "set right by God and with God"! Abraham is also, of course, father of those who have undergone the religious rite of circumcision not just because of the ritual but because they were willing to live in the risky faith-embrace of God's action for them, the way Abraham lived long before he was marked by circumcision.

13That famous promise God gave Abraham--that he and his children would possess the earth--was not given because of something Abraham did or would do. It was based on God's decision to put everything together for him, which Abraham then entered when he believed. 14If those who get what God gives them only get it by doing everything they are told to do and filling out all the right forms properly signed, that eliminates personal trust completely and turns the promise into an ironclad contract! That's not a holy promise; that's a business deal. 15A contract drawn up by a hard-nosed lawyer and with plenty of fine print only makes sure that you will never be able to collect. But if there is no contract in the first place, simply a promise--and God's promise at that--you can't break it.

16This is why the fulfillment of God's promise depends entirely on trusting God and his way, and then simply embracing him and what he does. God's promise arrives as pure gift. That's the only way everyone can be sure to get in on it, those who keep the religious traditions and those who have never heard of them. For Abraham is father of us all. He is not our racial father--that's reading the story backwards. He is our faith father.

stars, the letter of Romans was written specifically to the Christian church in Rome. When Paul uses the words "us" and "seed", he is referring to Christians. He is only talking about believers in the passage you have quoted. When Paul talks about the believers who have been "circumcised", he is talking about the Jews who became Christians. The other kind of Christians he is talking about here are the rest of the Christians, the gentile Christians. A big thing that was going on at this time in history was that many Jews who had become Christians were saying that in order to be saved, people had to go back and keep all the Jewish traditions. Paul is saying that Jewsih Christians and Gentile Christians are all the same and equal. Paul is not saying that nonChristians are children of the promise.

 

[Shaliz]

I just found this thread yesterday and was thrilled to see people talking about this. I was so upset after hearing Bono say those words, but after reading this thread, it's given me a new perspective. I watched the Slane Castle DVD the other day and he seemed much more spiritual during the Elevation tour than now. I have no idea where his heart is, I just hope and pray that he hasn't given up his faith.

I've been following this thread with interest because I've been seriously thinking about some of these same issues recently. At the moment I don't have anything really new to add to what's already been said, but I just wanted to respond to briarrose's concern about where Bono's faith is at these days. If you haven't had a chance to read Bono in Conversation with Michka Assayas, I would strongly recommend it. Bono is very open about his faith and makes his stand pretty clear.

 

[briarrose]

I've been following this thread with interest because I've been seriously thinking about some of these same issues recently. At the moment I don't have anything really new to add to what's already been said, but I just wanted to respond to briarrose's concern about where Bono's faith is at these days. If you haven't had a chance to read Bono in Conversation with Michka Assayas, I would strongly recommend it. Bono is very open about his faith and makes his stand pretty clear.

I will pick up that book soon. Thanks!

 

[starsgoblue]

stars, the letter of Romans was written specifically to the Christian church in Rome. When Paul uses the words "us" and "seed", he is referring to Christians. He is only talking about believers in the passage you have quoted. When Paul talks about the believers who have been "circumcised", he is talking about the Jews who became Christians. The other kind of Christians he is talking about here are the rest of the Christians, the gentile Christians. A big thing that was going on at this time in history was that many Jews who had become Christians were saying that in order to be saved, people had to go back and keep all the Jewish traditions. Paul is saying that Jewsih Christians and Gentile Christians are all the same and equal. Paul is not saying that nonChristians are children of the promise.

I'm completley disagree. The passage directly speaks of people who haven't heard of God's ways.

And in your last sentence....that negates God's promise to Abraham. For He said ALL of Abrahams children would be blessed. Besides, even you were a nonChristian at some point in your life...you have taken and recieved that promise.

God's promise arrives as pure gift. That's the only way everyone can be sure to get in on it, those who keep the religious traditions and those who have never heard of them. For Abraham is father of us all. He is not our racial father--that's reading the story backwards. He is our faith father.




I'm thinking more and more that this hits the nail on the head of what Bono's trying to say. Because he what he entirely says is: "Jesus...Jew...Mohammed...It's true. All children of Abraham. If only we could coexist"

 

[80sU2isBest]

I'm completley disagree. The passage directly speaks of people who haven't heard of God's ways.

Where in that passage does it speak of people who haven't heard of God's ways?

Let's make this clear - I am not saying that someone automatically goes to hell if they haven't heard of Christ. Buit they don't automatically go into Heaven, either.

However, this passage doesn't address that issue at all. It is strictly about Christians and Jews.

Besides, even you were a nonChristian at some point in your life...you have taken and recieved that promise.

But I wasn't a child of promise until I received it.

 

[the soul waits]

"But I wasn't a child of promise until I received it."

80s : Can you explain this further for me, please? I'd like to understand, because I can empathize with what Stars quoted there.
On a personal level, I can state that I was (and in many ways still am) far from religious or "of faith"-whichever way you wish to describe it, but that I felt God's prescence very clearly a few months ago (I wrote about that in other threads already) and was so stunned and baffled by it, actually.
And even though I'm still stepping my first steps on this new path, I can clearly feel that He is working with me. How can that be, when I was nowhere near a bible, a church, other religious people? (except for my brother, who is a Protestant, but never talked about it to me unless I specifically asked about it-we do talk about it a lot now).

 

[80sU2isBest]

"But I wasn't a child of promise until I received it."

80s : Can you explain this further for me, please? I'd like to understand, because I can empathize with what Stars quoted there.
On a personal level, I can state that I was (and in many ways still am) far from religious or "of faith"-whichever way you wish to describe it, but that I felt God's prescence very clearly a few months ago (I wrote about that in other threads already) and was so stunned and baffled by it, actually.
And even though I'm still stepping my first steps on this new path, I can clearly feel that He is working with me. How can that be, when I was nowhere near a bible, a church, other religious people? (except for my brother, who is a Protestant, but never talked about it to me unless I specifically asked about it-we do talk about it a lot now).

When I say "a child of promise", please understand that I am meaning "one who is under the covenant of grace", in other words, someone who is reborn, saved, Christian. I am not saying that nonChristian people weren't included in Christ's plan of salvation; I believe that salvation is open to anyone - anyone can become a "child of promise" (although Calvinists might disagree with me). But I am saying that until a person is reborn (accepts Christ as Savior and Lord, admits their sin and receives forgiveness from God), that person is as Paul says "dead in his sin". Paul describes what happens at conversion as passing from death (spiritually dead, under the control of sin and death) to life (spiritually alive, not under the control of sin and death, because Christ broke those powers at the cross and at resurrection).

As for your personal experience, the only way I can answer is that the Holy Spirit "wooed you", maybe not even in words, but in the language of the spirit. Maybe he convicted you that something was missing in your life, and he urged you to seek the truth. We are called to witness to people about Christ, but he certainly doesn't need us. That may be the way he reveals himself to people in parts of the world in which the Gospel is never heard. What I do know, based on what Christ said is that

(1)No one comes to the Father but through Christ
(2)No man can enter the kingdom unless he be born again

I do not know how Christ deals with people who have never heard of Christ. I do believe that his judgment of them is different than those who have heard of Christ but rejected him, or in some cases, lacked the mental capacity to understand. I don't think he automatically gives them a ticket to Heaven, but I don't think he automatically gives them a ticket to hell, either.

But when it comes down to it, I don't have to know that answer, because I trust that God always does what is right. God is righteous and just.

 

[80sU2isBest]

And in your last sentence....that negates God's promise to Abraham.

Not really...God telling Abraham that all his children will be blessed was not a promise of salvation.

 

[the soul waits]

When I say "a child of promise", please understand that I am meaning "one who is under the covenant of grace", in other words, someone who is reborn, saved, Christian. I am not saying that nonChristian people weren't included in Christ's plan of salvation; I believe that salvation is open to anyone - anyone can become a "child of promise" (although Calvinists might disagree with me). But I am saying that until a person is reborn (accepts Christ as Savior and Lord, admits their sin and receives forgiveness from God), that person is as Paul says "dead in his sin". Paul describes what happens at conversion as passing from death (spiritually dead, under the control of sin and death) to life (spiritually alive, not under the control of sin and death, because Christ broke those powers at the cross and at resurrection).

As for your personal experience, the only way I can answer is that the Holy Spirit "wooed you", maybe not even in words, but in the language of the spirit. Maybe he convicted you that something was missing in your life, and he urged you to seek the truth. We are called to witness to people about Christ, but he certainly doesn't need us. That may be the way he reveals himself to people in parts of the world in which the Gospel is never heard. What I do know, based on what Christ said is that

(1)No one comes to the Father but through Christ
(2)No man can enter the kingdom unless he be born again

I do not know how Christ deals with people who have never heard of Christ. I do believe that his judgment of them is different than those who have heard of Christ but rejected him, or in some cases, lacked the mental capacity to understand. I don't think he automatically gives them a ticket to Heaven, but I don't think he automatically gives them a ticket to hell, either.

But when it comes down to it, I don't have to know that answer, because I trust that God always does what is right. God is righteous and just.

Thanks for replying, 80s.

 

[starsgoblue]

Not really...God telling Abraham that all his children will be blessed was not a promise of salvation.

I specifically have said in my posts that I'm not talking about the nature of salvation. I think we're discussing two different things here...

 

[starsgoblue]

Where in that passage does it speak of people who haven't heard of God's ways?

Right here, several times....

9"Doyou think for a minute that this blessing is only pronounced over those of us who keep our religious ways and are circumcised? Or do you think it possible that the blessing could be given to those who never even heard of our ways, who were never brought up in the disciplines of God?"


16"This is why the fulfillment of God's promise depends entirely on trusting God and his way, and then simply embracing him and what he does. God's promise arrives as pure gift. That's the only way everyone can be sure to get in on it, those who keep the religious traditions and those who have never heard of them. For Abraham is father of us all. He is not our racial father--that's reading the story backwards. He is our faith father."

However, this passage doesn't address that issue at all. It is strictly about Christians and Jews.

I don't think so....other translations rather than The Message one I've given here speaks of circumsicion of the heart as well...not literal circumcision in itself...

 

[80sU2isBest]

Right here, several times....

9"Doyou think for a minute that this blessing is only pronounced over those of us who keep our religious ways and are circumcised? Or do you think it possible that the blessing could be given to those who never even heard of our ways, who were never brought up in the disciplines of God?"

Like I said earlier, he is speaking about Jews, Jewish christians and Gentile Christians. As you know, Paul was a Jewish religious leader before he became a Christian. When he says "keep our religious ways and are circumcised", he is talking specifically about the Jewish traditions. The people outside the Jewish religion who had not "heard of our ways" who were never "brought up in the disciplines of God" but received the blessing were indeed Gentiles, but they specifically are Gentiles who became Christians. As I said earlier, one of the biggest controversies in the early Christian church was that certain Christians were saying that in order to be saved, you had to keep all the Jewish traditions and rituals. Paul addressed this controversy more than once, and in different letters to different churches. This is one such place. Paul's stance was that it is indeed faith alone that saves, not the works of the law, but that it is specifically faith in Christ. If that is what you are saying,then we are in agreement, and i have misunderstood you.

I don't think so....other translations rather than The Message one I've given here speaks of circumsicion of the heart as well...not literal circumcision in itself...

When literal circumcision is spoken of, he is speaking of Judaism, and the Jewish leaders. When he speaks of "circumcision of the heart", he is speaking fo Christians who have been adopted into God's family. There are other places in scripture that make this very plain.

 

[starsgoblue]

I don't think we're ever going to agree on this... 'Tis ok though...

 

[80sU2isBest]

I specifically have said in my posts that I'm not talking about the nature of salvation. I think we're discussing two different things here...

We may be. If I have misunderstood you, I apologize.

 

[2Hearts]

"But I wasn't a child of promise until I received it."

80s : Can you explain this further for me, please? I'd like to understand, because I can empathize with what Stars quoted there.
On a personal level, I can state that I was (and in many ways still am) far from religious or "of faith"-whichever way you wish to describe it, but that I felt God's prescence very clearly a few months ago (I wrote about that in other threads already) and was so stunned and baffled by it, actually.
And even though I'm still stepping my first steps on this new path, I can clearly feel that He is working with me. How can that be, when I was nowhere near a bible, a church, other religious people? (except for my brother, who is a Protestant, but never talked about it to me unless I specifically asked about it-we do talk about it a lot now).

First, I like your username! To answer your question about God working in someone's life who has little or no prior knowledge of Him, let me say that you're not alone. One example is that of American Helen Keller (1880-1968), who was left deaf and blind at 19 months old by scarlet fever. With no obvious way to communicate to others, she could have been lost to her own closed-in world. However, her teacher developed a way to communicate with her by spelling words out in the palm of her hand. When her teacher tried to explain the concept of God, Helen responded, "Thank you for telling me God's name, for He has touched me many times before." Helen later graduated from college and wrote over a dozen books. I'm fascinated by her life, and want to read more about her.

When I was in graduate school, I had the pleasure of hearing the personal testimony of a Russian physicist named Alex at a Fellowship of Christian Engineers meeting. He worked in the Soviet nuclear arms program for many years. Like yourself, he had virtually no contact with anyone who believed in God. He said that one day while he was in college, he was walking through a wooded area when he became aware of God's prescence. Never before had he even considered that there may be a God. Anyway, he kept it to himself for a long time. When the Soviet Union fell, he happened to come across some American missionaries in a train station. When he heard them speak of Jesus, and was given a Bible, he immediately recalled the experience he had in the woods that day. He told us that it felt like the pieces of a puzzle had been put together for him, and today he ministers to Russian emigrants in America.

I know several people that struggle with faith in God, and they talk of how hard it is to believe sometimes. It sounds like Bono's dad was like this. I myself have a very firm belief that God exists, and Jesus was God in the flesh, but that doesn't mean that I have all the answers. I still grapple with other issues. But if you've felt God's prescence in a clear way, accept it for the gift that it is. No one can take that away from you.
-------------------------------------------------------------

I can truly say that this thread has been rescued from what it was becoming. At last there seems to be some helpful and amicable dialogue going on. I'm silently keeping up with the conversation b/w 80s and Stars. I just hope the two of you can start talking about the same thing. This thing called communication can be difficult some times.

"Bono: In Conversation" is ESSENTIAL reading if you want to know the current state of Bono's faith. I found it amusing that he was constantly directing the conversations in a spiritual direction. At some point, I was expecting Michka to tell him that this was not supposed to be a book on theological discourse.

 

[80sU2isBest]

2Hearts,
Did you get to read my response to your question about the divine intervention I have encountered in my life? If not, here it is:

The first concerns my father. Back in 1990, my father had emphysema and had pneumonia in both lungs. The meds weren't working, and the doctors even told us to call our out-of-town relatives in as soon as possible, if they wanted to see my dad before he died. The situation wasn't just dim, there was no light of hope whatsoever. My dad was going to die At least that's what everyone felt except me. I felt in my spirit that he wouldn't die, that it wasn't his time yet. It wasn't wishful thinking; it was a peace. I told my best friend and my brother about my conviction, and they both said they had the same conviction. That night, the three of us went into his room and prayed over him as he lay sleeping. The next day, the pneumonia left one lung suddenly and completely, and was leaving the other lung rapidly. The doctor said that he could not explain it, because theeds were not working, and declared it a miracle.

The other incident concerns God saving my life. I was driving my car headed north toward an intersection. Around 1/10 of a mile form the intersection, what I can only describe as a "silent voice" told me to stop at the next intersection. In my mind, I argued with the voice, saying "But my light is green". But the voice said "stop because that car is not going to stop". As I got closer, I could see that the car headed west at that intersection was making every indication of stopping; it was slowing down. So, in my mind, I kept saying "but it is going to stop, I can see it". Nevertheless, I kept getting the message that I needed to stop at the intersection because "that" car was not going to stop. Well, I got to the intersection, my light was still green, but I obeyed and stopped. I then saw that sure enough, the car stopped, also. But that turned out not the be the "that car" that the voice was talking about. Coming from the west, headed east, a Mustang travelling at a high speed ran its red light. If I had not been told to stop, and had not obeyed, I am sure I would have been hit and probably killed, but most assuredly seriously injured.

 

[starsgoblue]

I'm silently keeping up with the conversation b/w 80s and Stars. I just hope the two of you can start talking about the same thing. This thing called communication can be difficult some times.

"Bono: In Conversation" is ESSENTIAL reading if you want to know the current state of Bono's faith. I found it amusing that he was constantly directing the conversations in a spiritual direction. At some point, I was expecting Michka to tell him that this was not supposed to be a book on theological discourse.

Thanks 2Hearts. I truly hope that neither you nor 80s feels I'm being antagonistic in any way. I respect both you and 80s...so this conversation may be muddled or lost in translation via internet posting and we may not completley agree but I'm very much appreciating the level of respect/civility despite our differences. [/winded speech]

Bono In Conversation is truly a must read. It has challenged and refreshed me...I've learned alot from reading through that book several times.

 

[2Hearts]

Sorry 80s, I did read it the first time you posted it in this thread. Although I was too lazy to reply, I've kept those events in my mind for the last several days. Both accounts are very powerful and I can only imagine how blessed you feel. In the situation with your father, I noticed that there were 3 of you praying for your dad. I've often wondered if praying with others is somehow more effective. I don't really think that the "if two of you agree on anything" promise applies to every situation in life (Jesus was speaking on church discipline at the time), but still I wonder about this. I don't mind praying in public, but I've never been comfortable praying intimately with someone else. I'm really moved by the way that you, your brother, and your best friend prayed together that night.

 

[BVS]

Not really...God telling Abraham that all his children will be blessed was not a promise of salvation.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this statement. If someone says something to me, I hold them to their word, but humans fail to stick to their word all the time. Now given that it's God we're talking about, I don't give that type of leeway.

When God tells someone they are blessed what does that really mean?

"I bless you but I'm not taking you in." Doesn't really sound like anything God would say.

 

[the soul waits]

First, I like your username! To answer your question about God working in someone's life who has little or no prior knowledge of Him, let me say that you're not alone. One example is that of American Helen Keller (1880-1968), who was left deaf and blind at 19 months old by scarlet fever. With no obvious way to communicate to others, she could have been lost to her own closed-in world. However, her teacher developed a way to communicate with her by spelling words out in the palm of her hand. When her teacher tried to explain the concept of God, Helen responded, "Thank you for telling me God's name, for He has touched me many times before." Helen later graduated from college and wrote over a dozen books. I'm fascinated by her life, and want to read more about her.

When I was in graduate school, I had the pleasure of hearing the personal testimony of a Russian physicist named Alex at a Fellowship of Christian Engineers meeting. He worked in the Soviet nuclear arms program for many years. Like yourself, he had virtually no contact with anyone who believed in God. He said that one day while he was in college, he was walking through a wooded area when he became aware of God's prescence. Never before had he even considered that there may be a God. Anyway, he kept it to himself for a long time. When the Soviet Union fell, he happened to come across some American missionaries in a train station. When he heard them speak of Jesus, and was given a Bible, he immediately recalled the experience he had in the woods that day. He told us that it felt like the pieces of a puzzle had been put together for him, and today he ministers to Russian emigrants in America.

I know several people that struggle with faith in God, and they talk of how hard it is to believe sometimes. It sounds like Bono's dad was like this. I myself have a very firm belief that God exists, and Jesus was God in the flesh, but that doesn't mean that I have all the answers. I still grapple with other issues. But if you've felt God's prescence in a clear way, accept it for the gift that it is. No one can take that away from you.
-------------------------------------------------------------

I can truly say that this thread has been rescued from what it was becoming. At last there seems to be some helpful and amicable dialogue going on. I'm silently keeping up with the conversation b/w 80s and Stars. I just hope the two of you can start talking about the same thing. This thing called communication can be difficult some times.

"Bono: In Conversation" is ESSENTIAL reading if you want to know the current state of Bono's faith. I found it amusing that he was constantly directing the conversations in a spiritual direction. At some point, I was expecting Michka to tell him that this was not supposed to be a book on theological discourse.

Thank you for your heartfelt reply, 2Hearts.
It's hard to *not* sound like a lunatic or even conceited (sp?) when I speak about the way I felt God's prescence all of a sudden, yet I feel a strong need to speak about it and to learn more by asking these kinds of questions, reading books on faith and also reading these kinds of threads.
I have absolutely no way whatsoever to logically explain or prove that it was God (or Jesus, I don't know) who is working with me and I have even less a way of explaining why He did at this particular point in my life.
When I go over the events of the past 5 years, I can see an evolution and "growing towards this moment"-kind of thing if you will, without be being aware of it at the time. I don't pretend in any way to be able to "get" what His plan is or to even think that He has a plan for me specifically. That sounds and feels so cocky!
I mean, who am I to be "touched by God" all of a sudden, why not someone else. Having said that, I can't say that it has made my life any easier (on the contrary) but it does feel good to have a sense of direction and certain choices are easier to make, but at the same time, I am presented with a whole new package of questions...

I'm sorry to be rambling way off topic here, I felt like ventilating all these random thoughts.

 

[XHendrix24]

In the situation with your father, I noticed that there were 3 of you praying for your dad...

Heh. Not entirely on topic, but isn't it interesting how the number three plays into things as far as religion's concerned? Three persons in the Trinity, three religions that trace their roots back to Abraham, etc. Might just be coincidence, but I've always found that interesting.

As far as the thread goes, I too have enjoyed reading it. I think it's revealed some very interesting points of view on the subject and I think everyone involved in the discussion has contributed something good, or at least something to think about. Personally, I think I side a little bit more with starsgoblue's point of view (just heard that song recently too, good song). It was great to hear about 80's experiences too, though. Just makes me ponder the ways in which God reveals himself even more.

 

[melon]

You know, when people start ragging on religions, I end pointing to this thread of mine:

http://forum.interference.com/t83574.html

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam do have a common origin: in the non-Christian, Persian religion, Zoroastrianism. Funny enough, Jesus subverts Zoroastrian-infused Judaism (a.k.a., the Pharisees), only for Christianity to be resubverted by the Zoroastrian cult, Mithraism, via St. Paul. Baptism is a Zoroastrian rite, as is the Holy Trinity. The Zoroastrian trinity is Ahura Mazda (father), Mithras (sun god), and the Spenta Mainyu (Holy Spirit). Yes, if you ever wondered what the ambiguous "Holy Spirit" referred to, it's an archangel.

"Abrahamic Judaism" (the Sadducees in the NT) died in A.D. 70 with the destruction of the Temple by the Romans, where they subsequently slaughtered all the Jews too. "Zoroastrian Judaism" (the Pharisees in the NT) only survived, because the Romans allowed them to live, and that's the Judaism that survives today.

Believe me or don't believe me, but Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have more in common than we'd like to believe.

Melon

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Believe me or don't believe me, but Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have more in common than we'd like to believe.

I believe that for sure

and believe me or don't believe me -I was actually taught that in a Catholic college

 

[melon]

and believe me or don't believe me -I was actually taught that in a Catholic college

I believe you. I was taught about our origins with Zoroastrianism in high school religion class--just with no real in-depth detail like I know now.

Speaking of the Zoroastrian-Catholic/Christian connection, that's ultimately where "Purgatory" came from, along with a lot of our concepts of what "Heaven" and "Hell" are. The "Arda Viraf" predates Dante's "Divine Comedy" by centuries, and was effective in scaring Zoroastrians to the point that, when it was translated in English in 1917, the researcher actually bothered to note that he translated all of it, except where the details of hell became "too bestial, too sordid for modern tastes."

But it should also be noted that "hell" is not permanent in Zoroastrianism; it's only until the world is "refreshed" after the coming of the Savior/Messiah. The Apostle's Creed reflects this theology in that Jesus is said to "descend into Hell" and bring the souls into Heaven. Catholic revisionism is quick to say that this is actually the concept of "Purgatory," except that they'd be wrong. Zoroastrian "Purgatory" (Hamistagan) was reserved solely for those "whose good works and sin were equal." These individuals were frozen in place in "Hamistigan" like statues, and, like those in hell, were released from their prison with the coming of the Messiah.

Melon

 

[danprieto]

I apologize in advance if someone already has made this point, but Bono's message seems clear to me. Immediately following the words "Jesus, Jew, Mohammed, it's true" Bono says "all sons of Abraham." Thus, it seems to me that Bono is just making the obvious point that "it's true" that Christianity, Judaism and Islam all derive their origin from Abraham, not that all three religions are true. If Bono had meant that all three religions are true, wouldn't he have used the words "they're true" instead of "it's true." The use of the phrase "it's true" seems to indicate that one must look to the next phrase to determine what is true. The next phrase is that they are "all sons of Abraham."