confused?!

Natztar · 03-27-2003, 02:07 AM

Okay, here are two things that I SO cannot figure out. i hope someone can help me out here...

Firstly. I haven't read much of the old testament but from what I've flicked through there are heaps of strange rules and things. Why is it that we follow SOME things in the old testament like the 10 commandments etc but don't follow those rules? Do we just pick out what we want or something?

Secondly. Judas Iscariot (or whatever) is the guy who betrayed Jesus. Without him Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross for us. Doesn't that mean what Judas did was good? If he didn't do it surely someone else would have, so someone would have gone to hell for Jesus???

Those are two questions that I've had in me for so long, becuase I was almost sure I couldn't find someone to answer them...

nbcrusader · 03-27-2003, 09:20 AM

I'll try to answer these briefly - then add more later.

1. The first five books of the Old Testament contain what is known as "The Law". These were given by God to the Hebrews to describe the proper way to relate to God and to each other. By observing all of the Law, you could have a right relationship with God.

The New Testament tells us that the Law was replaced by Christ's death and resurrection. We do not need to follow the Law to have a right relationship with God, only to have faith in Christ. The Law, however, still makes us aware of the sin in our lives. Example � Romans 7:7, which states What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

2. Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him and gave him opportunities not to do it. Yes, in a way the result is �good� in that we would not have salvation but for the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. However, that does not then validate or make Judas� action �good�.

These are great questions - please feel free to ask for any clarifications.

melon · 03-27-2003, 09:44 AM

Allow me to add something I consider to be highly important:

Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. (Rom. 13:8-10)

"Love" is the law, and anything else is a ritualistic accessory.

As far as Judas goes, I don't pass judgment on him, despite the fact that Dante's "Inferno" puts him in the lowest depths of hell.

Melon

BVS · 03-27-2003, 01:21 PM

I've always been fascinated with this question of Judas. Being that his betrayal was all in part of Christ's death which if he wasn't crucified, would we have Christianity? One of the reasons Until the End of the World has always been a fave of mine.

To a lesser degree I have the same question about Pilate. Being that he really didn't want to send Christ to death but did so to protect his career. Inspired by UTEOTW I wrote a song similar in idea, but from Pilate's point of view. Where Pilate as a very arrogant politician, asks Christ if he'll forgive him due to the fact that his career move "made" Christ who is.

melon · 03-27-2003, 02:17 PM

Christian tradition through the centuries has refused to pass judgment on Pilate one way or another.

Melon

BVS · 03-27-2003, 03:49 PM

What do you mean exactly? You mean no church has come out to say they believe he was wrong or they haven't come out to say if they believed he went to heaven or hell? I'm just curious.

nbcrusader · 03-27-2003, 04:35 PM

Melon may be referring to Catholic tradition - I will let him address the specifics.

I have always seen Pilate portrayed as one more concerned in his position (and "keeping the peace" while occupying Judea) than in justice. His washing his hands of the situation shows his feeble attempt to deny his own sin.

melon · 03-27-2003, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
What do you mean exactly? You mean no church has come out to say they believe he was wrong or they haven't come out to say if they believed he went to heaven or hell? I'm just curious.

I mentioned "Christian tradition," because this tradition is older than Protestantism. Of course, maybe it has mutated into Catholic tradition. No judgment is passed on Pontius Pilate, because he did not condemn Jesus. He left the choice up to the Jews to decide whether to save Him or not, and they chose to condemn him. Of course, this same tradition also tends to get quite anti-Semitic, but that's a whole other story.

Melon

BVS · 03-27-2003, 06:52 PM

I see what you're saying, but I think Protestants take a slightly different approach. In the Apostle's ***** we say "He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried."

That's why I was curious of your interpretation.

I found this as well. It's a little simplistic, but it's interesting.

http://www.credo.ndirect.co.uk/suffered.html

This one's interesting as well

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1273594.stm

Regardless I've always found him interesting. The power he held, the weakness he portrayed, representation of everything I dislike about politicians today.

Hey why does it edit out the c-r-e-e-d word?

foray · 03-28-2003, 07:50 AM

I think that is just Elvis's hatred for the so-called 'rock' band, BonoVoxSuperstar.

foray

BVS · 03-28-2003, 11:30 AM

Interesting... I just think it's funny that out of all the words here in the forum, ***** is the one that get's

Natztar · 03-29-2003, 03:34 AM

Thanks so much for the clarification guys... please still add your comment if you have something to say ... I like to hear other people's perspectives of things.

I never really thought about pilate... he makes me wonder as much as judas does. Hmmmmm...

Klaus · 04-01-2003, 07:38 AM

Natztar:
1.
Anyway, people who like to abuse christianity prefer to ignore what they don't want to read in the bible and take sentences out of context - so yes, we (humans) do just pick out what we want

2.
Why do you think that the way it hapened was the only way Jesus could save our souls?

Elvis Presley · 04-03-2003, 12:14 PM

good points Klaus,

I havent been in here in awhile,, just saying hello...

Klaus · 04-05-2003, 09:06 PM

Hello Elvis

03-27-2003, 02:07 AM	#1
Natztar Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: New Zealand Posts: 57 Local Time: 12:51 AM	confused?! Okay, here are two things that I SO cannot figure out. i hope someone can help me out here... Firstly. I haven't read much of the old testament but from what I've flicked through there are heaps of strange rules and things. Why is it that we follow SOME things in the old testament like the 10 commandments etc but don't follow those rules? Do we just pick out what we want or something? Secondly. Judas Iscariot (or whatever) is the guy who betrayed Jesus. Without him Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross for us. Doesn't that mean what Judas did was good? If he didn't do it surely someone else would have, so someone would have gone to hell for Jesus??? Those are two questions that I've had in me for so long, becuase I was almost sure I couldn't find someone to answer them... __________________

03-27-2003, 09:20 AM	#2
nbcrusader Blue Crack Addict Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 22,071 Local Time: 05:51 AM	I'll try to answer these briefly - then add more later. 1. The first five books of the Old Testament contain what is known as "The Law". These were given by God to the Hebrews to describe the proper way to relate to God and to each other. By observing all of the Law, you could have a right relationship with God. The New Testament tells us that the Law was replaced by Christ's death and resurrection. We do not need to follow the Law to have a right relationship with God, only to have faith in Christ. The Law, however, still makes us aware of the sin in our lives. Example � Romans 7:7, which states What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 2. Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him and gave him opportunities not to do it. Yes, in a way the result is �good� in that we would not have salvation but for the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. However, that does not then validate or make Judas� action �good�. These are great questions - please feel free to ask for any clarifications. __________________

04-05-2003, 09:06 PM	#15
Klaus Refugee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: on a one of these small green spots at that blue planet at the end of the milky way Posts: 2,432 Local Time: 01:51 PM	Hello Elvis __________________

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03-27-2003, 09:44 AM	#3
melon ONE love, blood, life Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Ásgarðr Posts: 11,790 Local Time: 07:51 AM	Allow me to add something I consider to be highly important: Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. (Rom. 13:8-10) "Love" is the law, and anything else is a ritualistic accessory. As far as Judas goes, I don't pass judgment on him, despite the fact that Dante's "Inferno" puts him in the lowest depths of hell. Melon

03-27-2003, 01:21 PM	#4
BVS Blue Crack Supplier Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: between my head and heart Posts: 41,232 Local Time: 07:51 AM	I've always been fascinated with this question of Judas. Being that his betrayal was all in part of Christ's death which if he wasn't crucified, would we have Christianity? One of the reasons Until the End of the World has always been a fave of mine. To a lesser degree I have the same question about Pilate. Being that he really didn't want to send Christ to death but did so to protect his career. Inspired by UTEOTW I wrote a song similar in idea, but from Pilate's point of view. Where Pilate as a very arrogant politician, asks Christ if he'll forgive him due to the fact that his career move "made" Christ who is.

03-27-2003, 02:17 PM	#5
melon ONE love, blood, life Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Ásgarðr Posts: 11,790 Local Time: 07:51 AM	Christian tradition through the centuries has refused to pass judgment on Pilate one way or another. Melon

03-27-2003, 03:49 PM	#6
BVS Blue Crack Supplier Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: between my head and heart Posts: 41,232 Local Time: 07:51 AM	What do you mean exactly? You mean no church has come out to say they believe he was wrong or they haven't come out to say if they believed he went to heaven or hell? I'm just curious.

03-27-2003, 04:35 PM	#7
nbcrusader Blue Crack Addict Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 22,071 Local Time: 05:51 AM	Melon may be referring to Catholic tradition - I will let him address the specifics. I have always seen Pilate portrayed as one more concerned in his position (and "keeping the peace" while occupying Judea) than in justice. His washing his hands of the situation shows his feeble attempt to deny his own sin.

03-27-2003, 06:52 PM	#9
BVS Blue Crack Supplier Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: between my head and heart Posts: 41,232 Local Time: 07:51 AM	I see what you're saying, but I think Protestants take a slightly different approach. In the Apostle's ***** we say "He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried." That's why I was curious of your interpretation. I found this as well. It's a little simplistic, but it's interesting. http://www.credo.ndirect.co.uk/suffered.html This one's interesting as well http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1273594.stm Regardless I've always found him interesting. The power he held, the weakness he portrayed, representation of everything I dislike about politicians today. Hey why does it edit out the c-r-e-e-d word?

03-28-2003, 07:50 AM	#10
foray Rock n' Roll Doggie Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: full of sound and fury Posts: 3,386 Local Time: 01:51 AM	I think that is just Elvis's hatred for the so-called 'rock' band, BonoVoxSuperstar. foray

03-28-2003, 11:30 AM	#11
BVS Blue Crack Supplier Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: between my head and heart Posts: 41,232 Local Time: 07:51 AM	Interesting... I just think it's funny that out of all the words here in the forum, ***** is the one that get's

03-29-2003, 03:34 AM	#12
Natztar Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: New Zealand Posts: 57 Local Time: 12:51 AM	Thanks so much for the clarification guys... please still add your comment if you have something to say ... I like to hear other people's perspectives of things. I never really thought about pilate... he makes me wonder as much as judas does. Hmmmmm...

04-01-2003, 07:38 AM	#13
Klaus Refugee Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: on a one of these small green spots at that blue planet at the end of the milky way Posts: 2,432 Local Time: 01:51 PM	Natztar: 1. Anyway, people who like to abuse christianity prefer to ignore what they don't want to read in the bible and take sentences out of context - so yes, we (humans) do just pick out what we want 2. Why do you think that the way it hapened was the only way Jesus could save our souls?

04-03-2003, 12:14 PM	#14
Elvis Presley Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: eachnotesecure.com Posts: 5,058 Local Time: 08:51 AM	good points Klaus, I havent been in here in awhile,, just saying hello...