Bono on Jesus...

[indra]

This should not have been moved to The Goal Is Soul. The Goal Is Soul is intended as a non-arguing forum.

I agree. I know the title is Bono on Jesus, but the tenor of the discussion, while not brutal, is much more suited to FYM.

I think in this current forum many people will be disturbed by the discussion, while in FYM it is rather tame and, I think, productive.

 

[80sU2isBest]

so we're all doomed for Hell, then? what happened to the people who lived before Jesus's time? God so loved the world that he made them all doomed for Hell for about 3000 years (according to Biblical time anyway). then he felt sort of bad about sending everyone to Hell, so he said if you worship this one white guy with a beard, you can come to Heaven. otherwise you can just forget about it. that doesn't sound like a very loving god at all. why would i want to be with this god for all of eternity, anyway?

God didn't make man "doomed for hell". Man did that when he sinned. If man never sinned, he would be perfect, and fit for Heaven. He made himself imperfect by sinning, and as I said, God cannot abide in the presence of sin. You and I have free will, we choose to sin - no one makes us sin.

I agree with you Irvine, when you say that only a human could create such exclusive, self-righteous requirements for reaching heaven.

Please explain to me how me saying that "man can never be good enouigh to reach Heaven by his own works, but is totally dependent on God's grace" is self-righteous. In fact, it's the total opposite. Christianity is not about self-righteousness at all; it's about God-righteousness, because man cannot be righteous by his own workss.

 

[VertigoGal]

God didn't make man "doomed for hell". Man did that when he sinned. If man never sinned, he would be perfect, and fit for Heaven. He made himself imperfect by sinning, and as I said, God cannot abide in the presence of sin. You and I have free will, we choose to sin - no one makes us sin.

So it's possible to live and not sin? I thought that we are all sinners. Or are you going to tell me that it's all Eve's fault? Did God honestly think none of us would sin? And once he saw that we all sin, why did it take him 3000 years of letting everyone go to Hell before he decided to "save" us?

And it is self-righteous to say that your way is THE way, the only way, and I'm not only talking about Christianity.

 

[80sU2isBest]

so we're all doomed for Hell, then? what happened to the people who lived before Jesus's time?

Honestly, I don't have a really strong opinion on that.

In my opinion, based on things I have read in the Bible, when Christ died, he preached to those who had died before him. It is my opinion that those who accepted his message were allowed entrance into Heaven.

But there may be another explanation. In Hebrews, it says that people like Abraham, Isaace, Rahab and others had their "faith accounted to them as righteousness". This faith was a faith in God and his promises. How taht figures into their eternal resting place, I do not know.

 

[indra]

A total cop-out? Saying that the being who created the entire universe is powerful enough to keep his word together is a cop-out? If God wanted man to have his word, you don't think he'd take the steps necessary to make sure it happened?

Well...yeah. So why hasn't it? So why hasn't a Jesus appeared to every culture? Why just to one small area? A god is powerful enough to create a whole universe, can create planets, and oceans, and mountains, and thousands of species -- all which vary, but can only create one religion or belief that is acceptable? That makes no sense to me.

And I'm not just asking this about Christianity, I wonder the same about any religion which claims to be the only way, or the one true way. It's just that I am most familiar with Christianity and most people here are also.

It's just that issue (well there are several, but that's a biggie) is a sticking point for me, and it's interesting to discuss it with people who have different viewpoints. (added so as not to freak out people who frequent The Goal is the Soul, but fear for their very lives in FYM. )

 

[80sU2isBest]

So it's possible to live and not sin? I thought that we are all sinners. Or are you going to tell me that it's all Eve's fault? Did God honestly think none of us would sin?

It was certainly possible for Adam and Eve to not sin; they didn't have a "sin nature" before they sinned. They chose, in the free will that God gave them, to sin. It wasn't just Eve's fault; it was both of their faults. And when they sinned, they started the curse that falls upon all of hecurse of death. Every human is born with all of these, but every man still has free will to choose not to sin.

And once he saw that we all sin, why did it take him 3000 years of letting everyone go to Hell before he decided to "save" us?

Christ wasn't an afterthought; the rescue plan didn't just pop into being some 3,000 years later. When Adam and Eve sinned, God told the serpent (the Devil) the very first prophecy aabout the coming Christ. He said that he would one day crush the devil beneath his feet. All throughout the Old Testament times, the prophets prophecied about the coming Christ. In fact, the entire Old Testament ties in perfectly with the New Testament. Before Christ could appear on the scene as Savior, the people had to see their need for a savior. That's why God gave Moses the Mosaic Law to gove to the Israelites. Through struggling hard to live up to every jot and tittle of God's standards as edxpressed through the Mosaic Laws, the people encountered abysmal failure, and realized they could never be "good enough", because "good enough" was perfection. It was then, after centuries of trying and failing, that they were ready to see their need for a savior, someone who would free them from the burden of the law and pay the price they couldn't pay. Paul described the purpose of the Mosaic law basically as a school teacher that exposed people's sinfulness, and thus doing, pointed to Christ as the one who would free them from that burden.

And it is self-righteous to say that your way is THE way, the only way, and I'm not only talking about Christianity.

That's not self-righteousness. That's simply belief. Self-rigteousness would be calling myself morally superior to you because you don't believe the way I do. And you know I've never done that.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Well...yeah. So why hasn't it? So why hasn't a Jesus appeared to every culture? Why just to one small area? A god is powerful enough to create a whole universe, can create planets, and oceans, and mountains, and thousands of species -- all which vary, but can only create one religion or belief that is acceptable? That makes no sense to me.

He didn't confine it to just Israel. Christ charged his followers to spread the message to the world. And they did, and still are.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Everyone, I've enjoyed this - there is nothing I like more than a good theological discussion, but I have to go now - a lot of work to do. If this is still going on Monday, I'll join back in then. Good day and good weekend to you all.

 

[jphelmet]

Genesis 15:6 makes it pretty clear for OT salvation. It says "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness."

God promises a savior in Genesis 3:15, in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve. - since by faith God credits it to man as righteousness, and man knew in the garden of Eden that God would fix the broken relationship through a savior they had to believe that God would do what He said and fix the problem. So by believing God, it is credited to them as righeousness in the OT.

That is how I see OT salvation, and no people were not condemend for the 4,000 years from Adam to Christ.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Well...yeah. So why hasn't it? So why hasn't a Jesus appeared to every culture? Why just to one small area? A god is powerful enough to create a whole universe, can create planets, and oceans, and mountains, and thousands of species -- all which vary, but can only create one religion or belief that is acceptable? That makes no sense to me.

And I'm not just asking this about Christianity, I wonder the same about any religion which claims to be the only way, or the one true way. It's just that I am most familiar with Christianity and most people here are also.

Agreed. If God's all-powerful, I would think he'd be able spread it out himself. He shouldn't need people to do that for him.

Angela

 

[XHendrix24]

Agreed. If God's all-powerful, I would think he'd be able spread it out himself. He shouldn't need people to do that for him.

So God isn't allowed to work through His creation? People are a part of His creation too, you know.

Though, I'm not convinced about the whole "doomed to hell" thing. Why would a loving God allow people free will knowing that they would use it to sin and make their own dangerous decisions, therefore damning themselves to hell?

It's questions like that which make me reconsider the usual Christian concept of hell.

 

[indra]

So God isn't allowed to work through His creation? People are a part of His creation too, you know.

I think God might need to pick some of his messengers/associates/etc., a bit more carefully then. Honestly, some of the people "spreading the message" would be far better utilized in the back room stuffing envelopes than being the face of the "corporation."

(I know, I know, some day I'm gonna get struck by lightening....)

 

[Irvine511]

A total cop-out? Saying that the being who created the entire universe is powerful enough to keep his word together is a cop-out? If God wanted man to have his word, you don't think he'd take the steps necessary to make sure it happened?

in English?

it's a book, it's words on a page, it was written by men.

the Bible is not exempt from all the literary theory i spent years studying.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I think God might need to pick some of his messengers/associates/etc., a bit more carefully then. Honestly, some of the people "spreading the message" would be far better utilized in the back room stuffing envelopes than being the face of the "corporation."

(I know, I know, some day I'm gonna get struck by lightening....)

And many of the people who spread his message to the far corners of the globe feed hungry children on a daily basis, help impoversihed people grow crops and build shelter, administer medicine to teh sick.

 

[80sU2isBest]

in English?

it's a book, it's words on a page, it was written by men.

the Bible is not exempt from all the literary theory i spent years studying.

I do find it funny that you say that my view of God is limiting, because I say there's only one true faith, but at the same time you limit God by saying that he couldn't even orchestrate it so that his word stays intact as he intended it.

 

[indra]

And many of the people who spread his message to the far corners of the globe feed hungry children on a daily basis, help impoversihed people grow crops and build shelter, administer medicine to teh sick.

I did say "some."

And yes, some are fine people and excellent ambassadors for their faith, but I think you have to admit that some of the people pushing the message aren't. As the saying goes "you never get a second chance to make a first impression" so there are people being turned off by those who aren't good ambassadors. They are being pushed away by the very people who are supposedly trying to help them.

 

[Bad Templar]

I did say "some."

And yes, some are fine people and excellent ambassadors for their faith, but I think you have to admit that some of the people pushing the message aren't. As the saying goes "you never get a second chance to make a first impression" so there are people being turned off by those who aren't good ambassadors. They are being pushed away by the very people who are supposedly trying to help them.

Provide some evidence to back up your assertion.

 

[Bad Templar]

it's a book, it's words on a page, it was written by men.

the Bible is not exempt from all the literary theory i spent years studying.

Precisely. The Bible is primarily a book of theology (about God), written by men, of which the Christian faith places credence in.

The Bible is not exempt from textural criticism and 2000 years of Christian theology has refined various methods of interpretation and contextualisation of the text.

However, I find it ironic that many who try to discredit the Bible quote it literally.

 

[Bad Templar]

Well...yeah. So why hasn't it? So why hasn't a Jesus appeared to every culture? Why just to one small area? A god is powerful enough to create a whole universe, can create planets, and oceans, and mountains, and thousands of species -- all which vary, but can only create one religion or belief that is acceptable? That makes no sense to me.

Your forgetting that Jesus lived and taught his message during an era of globalised (for want of a better word) culture.

Centuries of Hellenism meant the Greek language was commonly used across the known world.

'Pax Romana' created a network of trade and information distribution throughout the Roman Empire.

Christ's teachings and the Christian gospel were not confined to first century Palestine. The Apostle Paul preached the Christian gospel at the Areopagus in Athens by the years 50-60 AD... this was the intellectual and philosophical heart of the world at that time.

 

[Bad Templar]

So it's possible to live and not sin? I thought that we are all sinners. Or are you going to tell me that it's all Eve's fault? Did God honestly think none of us would sin? And once he saw that we all sin, why did it take him 3000 years of letting everyone go to Hell before he decided to "save" us?

I'm a theistic evolutionist. I personally view the Adam and Eve narrative as allegorical of the relationship between God and humankind. So I'm not into apportioning any blame on poor old 'Eve'.

Secondly, under the Christian faith it's possible to live...to sin...and be sorry for it before God and let the Holy Spirit work through you to deal with the sin in your life. Christianity doesn't argue anything else on this matter.

And it is self-righteous to say that your way is THE way, the only way, and I'm not only talking about Christianity.

Then I'm 'self-righteous'. So be it. I can live with it.

 

[Bad Templar]

Agreed. If God's all-powerful, I would think he'd be able spread it out himself. He shouldn't need people to do that for him.

The problem with this is that belief in God would be a science and would become involuntary.

If God came out of the clouds one day and made Himself known...you wouldn't have any choice but to submit to Him.

God wants humankind to reconcile with Him out of their own free will to do so. This is a greater love than to force His creation into loving Him.

Which would you rather?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

The problem with this is that belief in God would be a science and would become involuntary.

If God came out of the clouds one day and made Himself known...you wouldn't have any choice but to submit to Him.

God wants humankind to reconcile with Him out of their own free will to do so. This is a greater love than to force His creation into loving Him.

Which would you rather?

Originally posted by XHendrix24
So God isn't allowed to work through His creation? People are a part of His creation too, you know.

I know.

It's just that if God supposedly gets so upset with people for not believing in him, for not choosing the "right" faith, it seems weird then that he'd make it a choice for people to make, that he'd have followers try and convince people that he exists instead of just proving it by appearing to everyone himself. That's all.

And what I meant with the whole all-powerful thing, too, is that if he's supposedly as powerful as followers claim, why wouldn't he make it so that there's all kinds of ways to get to him? To narrow it down to one way and one way only seems to me to limit his power, his abilities.

Angela

 

[Bad Templar]

It's just that if God supposedly gets so upset with people for not believing in him, for not choosing the "right" faith, it seems weird then that he'd make it a choice for people to make, that he'd have followers try and convince people that he exists instead of just proving it by appearing to everyone himself. That's all.

Angela, I think it goes back to what I mentioned earlier.

If God appeared to humankind, there would be no option for humankind but to 'believe' in Him but there would be no guarantee that they would 'love' Him.

To force someone to love you is not love at all.

This is why faith through a person's free will to turn back to God is the cornerstone of Christianity... not proof or coersion.

And what I meant with the whole all-powerful thing, too, is that if he's supposedly as powerful as followers claim, why wouldn't he make it so that there's all kinds of ways to get to him? To narrow it down to one way and one way only seems to me to limit his power, his abilities.

I think many ways to God would actually dilute His power.

As it is, Christianity is the great leveller of humankind. Money can't save your soul, power can't save your soul, the works you do on Earth can't save your soul.

Say for instance, that Christ was the son of God as He claimed and that His death would be the ultimate sacrifice for humankind... why would God bother sacrificing His son if there a multiplicity of other alternatives?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Say for instance, that Christ was the son of God as He claimed and that His death would be the ultimate sacrifice for humankind... why would God bother sacrificing His son if there a multiplicity of other alternatives?

Exactly. Death on the cross was no walk in the park. If "any religion will get ya there", Christ would not have put himself through that. But he did, out of love.

 

[learn2kneel]

"And once he saw that we all sin, why did it take him 3000 years of letting everyone go to Hell before he decided to "save" us?"

Everyone didn't go to hell during this time... according to Christian theology the people that believed in a Messiah/Savior to come were saved. They worshipped and brought glory to God by a sacrificial lamb (which represented Christs future sacrifice).