Bono on Jesus...

[jphelmet]

Then if you believed with all your heart that you knew the truth, a truth of eternal consequence, you woudn't tell your friends?

you missed the whole point. sarcasm doesn't always go over on the internet.

my point is to say that all religions are the same, and no one can be right - so don't share your beliefs; this idea is a religion, and a very condescending, arrogant one at that.

i was just pointing out the irony of comments like that.

 

[80sU2isBest]

you can tell them, and maybe you should tell them, but you should also respect them enough to allow them to disagree with you and when they say "stop preaching at me" you should stop because all faith must be tinged with humility because you cannot ever, ever know if your faith is "correct" -- so to speak -- until you die.

I'd say that most Christians do stop "preaching" to the unsaved when they are asked to. Even Christ told his disciples that if a town doesn't receive their teaching, to shake the dirt off their shoes and move on.

and it's also offensive, downright patronizing, to believe that you're hooked into a greater truth than they are.

I believe that Christ is God incarnate, so when he said that he is the only way, I believe it. If you think that's offensive, so be it.

Are you trying to tell me that there isn't one belief that you hold that you consider a "great truth" that you consider to be a "greater" truth than those who disgaree with you? You don't think any of beliefs are greater than anyone else's?

I don't believe that.

 

[80sU2isBest]

you missed the whole point. sarcasm doesn't always go over on the internet.

my point is to say that all religions are the same, and no one can be right - so don't share your beliefs; this idea is a religion, and a very condescending, arrogant one at that.

i was just pointing out the irony of comments like that.

Oh, I understand now. Sorry I misunderstood.

 

[Irvine511]

I'd say that most Christians do stop "preaching" to the unsaved when they are asked to. Even Christ told his disciples that if a town doesn't receive their teaching, to shake the dirt off their shoes and move on.



I believe that Christ is God incarnate, so when he said that he is the only way, I believe it. If you think that's offensive, so be it.

Are you trying to tell me that there isn't one belief that you hold that you consider a "great truth" that you consider to be a "greater" truth than those who disgaree with you? You don't think any of beliefs are greater than anyone else's?

I don't believe that.

80s: i was trying very hard for you not to take my post personally. i am sorry if you did, it was not meant to be that way.

i don't find the belief that Christ is God incarnate to be offensive. i find the METHOD and MANNER in which that belief is sometimes practiced and preached to be offensive.

it's not usually the message, it's the messenger that's the problem.

i do think that some beliefs are more logically sound than others. however, when you describe a belief that is impossible to prove, or even argue logically -- as is the very nature of religion, as it's an explanation of the unexplainable -- then it is utterly pointless to argue that one religion is better or more valid or more true than another.

when i was a child, i grew up fairly sheltered, but i was certainly aware that racism existed, and it floored me when i heard about anti-Semitism (i also grew up knowing many, many jewish people and the only difference i could tease out at that point was their 7 days of a single present vs. my one day of many presents). i couldn't imagine, even at the age of 10, that people thought that others were inferior on the basis of a religious belief. racism i could understand -- you were talking about different cultures, people who looked differently. i thought it was stupid, but i could understand the thought process behind it. race was real, tangible, and people could live that experience. anti-semitism -- or whatever anti-religion belief one might hold -- just seemed so utterly silly to me. because it was about belief, not about fact.

in regards to Greater Truths, i suppose those that i hold in higher esteem than others come from my own experiences and observations, and they're all tied to very real, sometimes unpleasant, gritty human experiences. they don't extend far beyond the flesh. i remain passionately agnostic, because while i haven't experienced God or Jesus or Zeus or Allah, i know it's a very important question, and i also don't believe that anyone who claims that they have experienced God or Jesus or Zeus has had an experience that could be replicated beyond themselves. your experiences might be very real to you, but they are not necessarily real to anyone else. so that's where the respect i might extend to you when you describe your experiences should be met with humility -- as in, "this happened to me, and i felt something, but i can't prove it externally beyond the way that experience might impact how i live my life on earth."

 

[80sU2isBest]

80s: i was trying very hard for you not to take my post personally. i am sorry if you did, it was not meant to be that way.

I didn't take it personally at all. You used the phrase "the collective you", so I understood you weren't meaning it against me. But really think that most Christians do not witness in the "shove it down people's throats" way.

 

[indra]

you missed the whole point. sarcasm doesn't always go over on the internet.

my point is to say that all religions are the same, and no one can be right - so don't share your beliefs; this idea is a religion, and a very condescending, arrogant one at that.

i was just pointing out the irony of comments like that.

Oh I don't give a rat's ass if you agree with me.... Actually, the idea I put forward is not what I believe. But I do find it odd that most religions (not just christianity) seem so strongly tied to only their own belief that there is a refusal to even look at other religions as valid. I guess if one truly believes their belief is correct then there is no need or desire to look at anything else.

But I don't have a religion I think of as correct, so I look at many. And to my eyes most religions are, at their very core, incredibly similar. What many people who do believe one religion is THE correct religion see as fundemental differences in religions or belief systems, I, as someone without strong ties to any religion, see as mere trappings.

It doesn't mean that I'm right, or that you're (any you out there this might apply to) wrong (or right, for that matter), it's just me musing (and forgetting to completely flesh out my musings, complete with any and all disclaimers. ).

 

[80sU2isBest]

Oh I don't give a rat's ass if you agree with me.... Actually, the idea I put forward is not what I believe. But I do find it odd that most religions (not just christianity) seem so strongly tied to only their own belief that there is a refusal to even look at other religions as valid. I guess if one truly believes their belief is correct then there is no need or desire to look at anything else.

Why do you assume that people who hold strongly to only their own religious beliefs haven't looked at others? Who told you this?

Could it be that maybe they have, and still found that they see their religion as truth?

 

[indra]

Why do you assume that people who hold strongly to only their own religious beliefs haven't looked at others? Who told you this?

Could it be that maybe they have, and still found that they see their religion as truth?

In person, it's the completely blank look I get when I bring it up.

And often on message boards it's the manner it's almost always very rapidly shot down without so much as "yeah, I thought of that and this is why it didn't fly for me." Plus, often when eastern religions are mentioned, many people I've come in contact with say they know nothing about them.

So that's been my experience.

Just a question -- before you settled on your current (not meaning it's just a phase or anything) belief, did you look at other religions? Not just other branches of Christianity, but at other world religions? I'm just being nosy, and don't mean to imply it's good or bad.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Just a question -- before you settled on your current (not meaning it's just a phase or anything) belief, did you look at other religions? Not just other branches of Christianity, but at other world religions? I'm just being nosy, and don't mean to imply it's good or bad.

Honestly, not before I settled on it. And while I have looked at other religions and know what they believe, I have never considered leaving Christianity. So, I've never looked at other religions under the scenario of "well, let me take a look at what's out there, so I can see what works best for me." The truth is that God has pulled me through so much stuff (even saving my life at least once and pulling out a miraculous healing of my dad), I've never really had a reason to want to leave. I've had plenty of bad times, but in each instance, I knew God's presence. Even in times when I openely rebelled against him, I knew he was with me. Christ is as real to me as any person I see on a daily basis.

But it's not just a question of "having felt his presence" for me. Christianity also makes more sense, on a rational, logical level than any other belief system.

First, athiesm is right out for me. The idea that the big Bang happened, without intelligent design as the driving force, and led to the process called evolution eventually leading up to complex, rationally thinking creatures such as human beings (again, without intelligent design), makes no sense to me.

Amongst all religions, Christianity actually makes the most sense to me. In fact, it makes perfect sense to me. Other religions are concerned with what man can do to reach up to God. Christianity is the opposite; it is about what God did to reach down to man, since man cannot reach up tp God. If there is a God, it just makes sense to me that he is so holy and righteous that man couldn't measure up to his standards and please him with good works, no matter how good he tries to be. Christ is the perfect solution. He pays the penalty for man's sin, on the cross, and reaches down to man to pull man out of the mud in which he is quagmired. Christ doesn't say "do this and this and this, and I will be pleased". He says "You can't be good in your own power. Come to me, ye who are heavy laden and burdened, and I will give you rest." That's what grace is all about. It makes perfect rational sense to me.

So, while I never gave serious thought to joining other religions, I have given serious thought to Christianity.

And yet there have been many people who started out with other religious beliefs or no belief that have become Christian. C.S. Lewis was an athiest who became a Christian as an adult. Another prime example is Madelyn Murray O`Hare's son, who became a Christian pastor; no one can say he became a Christian because of the environment in which he was raised.

 

[elevation2u]

believing in God i dont think other religions are wrong, i feel they're all the same in the core sense with cultural differences.
being a reader of the bible, i try to be a better person, have more patience, help out those around me as jesus did. it's definitely not easy but it's a challenge i won't give up. i don't think less of those who don't believe in god or are of different relgions. i grew up in a diverse place and have always found it important to respect others.
i don't understand why though people always speak to me so condescending when they learn i believe in god, i get questions like "oh, so what im going to hell, huh?" "christianity is bullshit, they cause all wars"
i guess these people dont really understand that all that greed stuff isnt supported in the bible just by some loonie followers and no i dont think everyone is going to hell.

so i guess my 'complaint' is, if im tolerable & respectful to those of other opinions why cant they be a little more respectful to my believes?

if they dont believe in god why do they care if i do, obviously my beliefs dont affect them since theyre not true to nonbelievers.

 

[indra]

so i guess my 'complaint' is, if im tolerable & respectful to those of other opinions why cant they be a little more respectful to my believes?

if they dont believe in god why do they care if i do, obviously my beliefs dont affect them since theyre not true to nonbelievers.

I think intolerance and disrespect comes in all forms and from all sides. My opinions and beliefs have been derided by some of those who do believe; your's have been derided by some of those who don't.

I guess jerks come in all forms, don't they?

 

[indra]

Thanks for your response 80sU2isBest. I appreciate you taking the time to explain your thoughts.

I also have trouble wrapping my head around the Big Bang -- there was nothing and then it exploded and voila! Here it is! (yes I know the scientists amongst us are cringing mightily now ) But I also can't quite get past the question: If God made us, who made God? Because if God could just appear, then why couldn't the rest of the universe just appear?

But since both scenarios give me a headache when I think too much about them, I've just decided not to really worry about it. The world is (at least I think it is ) and that's good enough for me.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I also have trouble wrapping my head around the Big Bang -- there was nothing and then it exploded and voila! Here it is! (yes I know the scientists amongst us are cringing mightily now ) But I also can't quite get past the question: If God made us, who made God? Because if God could just appear, then why couldn't the rest of the universe just appear?

The way I look at that is this:

To believe that one God has always existed, and he created the universe and all that is in it, takes faith.

To believe that the universe and everything in it happened by total chance takes a boatload, no - a cruise liner of faith.

 

[VertigoGal]

Amongst all religions, Christianity actually makes the most sense to me. In fact, it makes perfect sense to me. Other religions are concerned with what man can do to reach up to God. Christianity is the opposite; it is about what God did to reach down to man, since man cannot reach up tp God. If there is a God, it just makes sense to me that he is so holy and righteous that man couldn't measure up to his standards and please him with good works, no matter how good he tries to be. Christ is the perfect solution. He pays the penalty for man's sin, on the cross, and reaches down to man to pull man out of the mud in which he is quagmired. Christ doesn't say "do this and this and this, and I will be pleased". He says "You can't be good in your own power. Come to me, ye who are heavy laden and burdened, and I will give you rest." That's what grace is all about. It makes perfect rational sense to me.

It really makes perfect sense to you that a kind and loving God whose son was a symbol of tolerance would be so insecure that he would need everyone to worship him through the same medium (Christianity), otherwise he would put them through eternal suffering? That he would put a good person who left their world a little better than how they found it through eternal suffering because they practiced a different religion?

The Big Bang idea baffles me too, and honestly I feel like indra (the whole thing gives me a headache, so I try my best not to think about it)...

elevation2u...sorry you've had to deal with that. Intolerance is wrong coming from either side. Even though I can't convince myself of either the existance or nonexistance of a god, if there is a god I think I generally agree with you...most religions are essentially similar. I wouldn't put it past a "god" to be intelligent enough to realise that different ways of interpreting god work for different people.

 

[jphelmet]

It really makes perfect sense to you that a kind and loving God whose son was a symbol of tolerance would be so insecure that he would need everyone to worship him through the same medium (Christianity), otherwise he would put them through eternal suffering? That he would put a good person who left their world a little better than how they found it through eternal suffering because they practiced a different religion?

I am not attacking you, really just trying to clarify the position of Christianity.

Your assumption is that you can do enough to please God.
Christianity is very simply God requires perfection, and no man can do enough by their works.

Christians are clinging to idea that Jesus did it- lived perfectly, and God has provided Him as a way for us - because we cannot do it.

So your thought to just leave it alone, they are all the same is at odds with the very fundamental idea of Christianity.

This argument that all religions are valid or the same, is to say that your way is right. You are saying that God is like this, that all ways (religions) are acceptable to Him, and no one should say anything about being right except you. You are making very specific and bold claims about who God is. Your argument is the exact same as the very thing you are arguing against.

 

[VertigoGal]

This argument that all religions are valid or the same, is to say that your way is right. You are saying that God is like this, that all ways (religions) are acceptable to Him, and no one should say anything about being right except you. You are making very specific and bold claims about who God is. Your argument is the exact same as the very thing you are arguing against.

That's a good point.

I'm not making specific and bold claims about who god is though, it was more of a hypothetical statement. I don't know who or what god is, or if one exists...I simply said it would make sense to me if a god would reveal himself in different ways to different people. I don't know if this is true.

 

[Irvine511]

I'm not making specific and bold claims about who god is though, it was more of a hypothetical statement. I don't know who or what god is, or if one exists...I simply said it would make sense to me if a god would reveal himself in different ways to different people. I don't know if this is true.

your claims were tinged with humility; the interpretation of Christianity being offered (and, remember, it is an *interpretation*) had no humility.

or at least no nuance.

like you, i can't believe a God would fault people for using the brains he gave them and thinking very critically about religion as well as extending respect and tolerance and humility to those who believe differently.

or those who, through a logical thought process, cannot sincerely believe one thing or the next, so they choose agnosticism.

often, the God presented in some aspects of Christianity is rather petty.

jealous, too.

 

[80sU2isBest]

It really makes perfect sense to you that a kind and loving God whose son was a symbol of tolerance would be so insecure that he would need everyone to worship him through the same medium (Christianity), otherwise he would put them through eternal suffering? That he would put a good person who left their world a little better than how they found it through eternal suffering because they practiced a different religion?

It's not a question of God sending a person to hell because he worships another "god". Truth is, man is bound for hell because he has sinned, and one sin is enough to keep man from God's presence, because God, being perfect in holiness, cannot abide in the presence of even an ounce of unholiness. Light cannot abide with darkness. A person's spirit is immortal. When your flesh dies, your spirit has to go someplace. If your spirit is imperfect, you will go to hell. But God loved you so much, and he wants you to be with him so much, that he sent his perfect son Christ to die in your place, to pay the price for your sin. God, knowing that man is headed for hell, put his rescue plan (named Jesus Christ) into effect. I've said it over and over again that Christianity has nothing to do with how good a person is. That's the entire reason for the cross - because man cannot be good enough; God requires perfection (in the spirit), and the only way that man can be perfect (in the spirit) is to have his sins washed away by the blood of Christ, who was perfect, and whose death and resurrection free us from the power and penalty of sin.

But he's not going to force the decision to follow Christ upon you; you have free will.

As for more than one religion being right, how can 2 religions that make opposite claims both be right? For example, how can Christianity and Islam both be right? Christ says he is the only way, and Islam says he's not the way at all - he's a prophet. How can they both be right, when they say opposite things about Christ?

 

[Irvine511]

As for more than one religion being right, how can 2 religions that make opposite claims both be right? For example, how can Christianity and Islam both be right? Christ says he is the only way, and Islam says he's not the way at all - he's a prophet. How can they both be right, when they say opposite things about Christ?

because what all religions do is recognize the existence of human beings beyond the flesh. that there is a spiritual component to the human experience, and they offer different avenues by which an individual might come to realize his/her connection to that ... and here's where words break down ... to that which we cannot explain or know, but believe that one day we'll be able to explain and know once we are there. it sort of doesn't matter how you arrive at the conclusion that there is a god, and that, yes, we are spiritual beings. what matters is the conclusion itself, not the journey taken.

also, i'll offer this -- the reason why good works aren't enough, and that perhaps only faith is enough, is because if you have faith that you go to heaven, then you will. if you don't, you won't.

 

[80sU2isBest]

like you, i can't believe a God would fault people for using the brains he gave them and thinking very critically about religion as well as extending respect and tolerance and humility to those who believe differently.

often, the God presented in some aspects of Christianity is rather petty.

jealous, too.

Irvine, what you're saying makes it sound so arbitrary on God's part; that he just willy nilly decides to send someone to hell who doesn't believe in Christ. But what I described isn't arbitrary; it's based on the "spiritual nature of God", that man is doomed for hell anyway, and that Christ is the rescue plan, because God cannot abide in the presence of sin, and that the only way man's spirit can be perfect is to be washed clean by the blood of his poerfect son Jesus Christ.

 

[80sU2isBest]

because what all religions do is recognize the existence of human beings beyond the flesh. that there is a spiritual component to the human experience, and they offer different avenues by which an individual might come to realize his/her connection to that ... and here's where words break down ... to that which we cannot explain or know, but believe that one day we'll be able to explain and know once we are there. it sort of doesn't matter how you arrive at the conclusion that there is a god, and that, yes, we are spiritual beings. what matters is the conclusion itself, not the journey taken.

also, i'll offer this -- the reason why good works aren't enough, and that perhaps only faith is enough, is because if you have faith that you go to heaven, then you will. if you don't, you won't.

All of what you wrote is in contradiction to what what Christ said. Christ excluded other religions. So, it cannot possibly be that all religions are correct. If all other religions are correct, Christianity is false and Christ was a liar.

 

[Irvine511]

Irvine, what you're saying makes it sound so arbitrary on God's part; that he just willy nilly decides to send someone to hell who doesn't believe in Christ. But what I described isn't arbitrary; it's based on the "spiritual nature of God", that man is doomed for hell anyway, and that Christ is the rescue plan, because God cannot abide in the presence of sin, and that the only way man's spirit can be perfect is to be washed clean by the blood of his poerfect son Jesus Christ.

firstly, if Jesus was a man, i don't for a second believe he was perfect.

but the point i was trying to get to is the idea that God created only one specific way to get to know him, and that everyone else (which is most of humanity) is doomed to burn in hell.

that strikes me as petty.

so petty, that only a human could have invented such an exclusionary, self-righteous path towards the infinite.

 

[Irvine511]

All of what you wrote is in contradiction to what what Christ said. Christ excluded other religions. So, it cannot possibly be that all religions are correct. If all other religions are correct, Christianity is false and Christ was a liar.

well, would you agree that it is a possibility? that Christ is false?

just a possibility.

also, you're taking a very, very literalist view of the Bible. that's an old debate, and i would never for a second parse such statements written over 2,000 years ago and not by the original author.

we all know how unreliable eyewitness testimonies. why would you predicate your entire belief system on something written by someone else? that's been translated? that's been used and abused? that's been manipualted for years to achieve certain political ends?

the spirit of the law, not the letter.

 

[80sU2isBest]

This should not have been moved to The Goal Is Soul. The Goal Is Soul is intended as a non-arguing forum.

 

[Irvine511]

yeah, what gives?

 

[80sU2isBest]

well, would you agree that it is a possibility? that Christ is false?

just a possibility.

also, you're taking a very, very literalist view of the Bible. that's an old debate, and i would never for a second parse such statements written over 2,000 years ago and not by the original author.

we all know how unreliable eyewitness testimonies. why would you predicate your entire belief system on something written by someone else? that's been translated? that's been used and abused? that's been manipualted for years to achieve certain political ends?

the spirit of the law, not the letter.

No, I don't really consider Christianity being a false a real possibility. As I said before, it makes sense to me, in ways that nothing else does.

The reason I believe in teh Bible after all these years is that I know that if God wanted man to know his word, he would find a way to keep it together and accurate forever, if need be.

Also, "the spirit of the law, not the letter" was used by Christ to refer specifically to the Pharisees condemning people based on their lack of adherence to every jot and tittle in the Mosaic Law"...I don't see how it has anything to do with other religions.

 

[Irvine511]

The reason I believe in teh Bible after all these years is that I know that if God wanted man to know his word, he would find a way to keep it together and accurate forever, if need be.

to me, that makes no logical sense whatsoever. sounds like a total cop-out.

total retroactive justification.

 

[VertigoGal]

so we're all doomed for Hell, then? what happened to the people who lived before Jesus's time? God so loved the world that he made them all doomed for Hell for about 3000 years (according to Biblical time anyway). then he felt sort of bad about sending everyone to Hell, so he said if you worship this one white guy with a beard, you can come to Heaven. otherwise you can just forget about it. that doesn't sound like a very loving god at all. why would i want to be with this god for all of eternity, anyway?

I agree with you Irvine, when you say that only a human could create such exclusive, self-righteous requirements for reaching heaven.

 

[MissMoo]

In my opinion if there is a God then he created everything and perhaps only those who judge and condemn others are the one's who will go to Hell. It seems if he created everything and Man is the one who misinterprets then it is possible that what is common in religions is where the truth lies and the differences are not true or are unimportant.

 

[80sU2isBest]

to me, that makes no logical sense whatsoever. sounds like a total cop-out.

total retroactive justification.

A total cop-out? Saying that the being who created the entire universe is powerful enough to keep his word together is a cop-out? If God wanted man to have his word, you don't think he'd take the steps necessary to make sure it happened?