Bono confesses

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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
BorderGirl said:


You are right 'they' found him, the early Christ-ians, as they were called. Many people recognized him in their midst and followed him.
The apostles recognized that their task was to pass on the faith given to them by Jesus. After all Apostolic tradition began before the New Testament was actually written down. People learned by word of mouth.

Right but your original statement was misleading and very elitist.

Many of Christian denominations have their ceremonial traditions based on OT. There are few such as communion based on Jesus' actions and teachings.

Many of the differences between denominations today are not so much based on Jesus' teachings than they are the ceremonial.

If we concentrated more on the teachings of Christ and worried less about you have to pray this, you have to speak to this person, you have to go through this ceremony to be saved, Christianinty would be a lot better off and much more united.
 
financeguy said:


Plus Jesus was Jewish and often quoted the prophets of the Old Testament,
Of course he was. He was raised by Mary and Joseph, his parents, who were Jewish, from the House of David. Wonderful Jewish parents and great examples of their faith, which they passed on to young Jesus.
+++++

on which has the longest provenance, which BorderGirl's post appears to suggest, I guess we should all convert to Judaism.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I am not suggesting anyone should convert.
However I would advocate studying the history of own own particular religions so we can know why we do what we do.

And certainly by studying Judaism it will enrich your particular Christian religion of choice.
Catholics are very acknowledging of their Jewish history/tradition as the relics of this religion are relevant in todays church.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:

If we concentrated more on the teachings of Christ and worried less about you have to pray this, you have to speak to this person, you have to go through this ceremony to be saved, Christianinty would be a lot better off and much more united.

Here's something I found you might appreciate:

Ecumenism

Vatican II teaches that all Catholics are called to ecumenism:
The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council … But the Lord of Ages wisely and patiently follows out the plan of grace on our behalf..., He has been rousing divided Christians to remorse over their divisions and to a longing for unity … This movement toward unity is called “ecumenical.” [45]

Ecumenism is coming together for combined strength on principles held in common by each faith. For instance, Jews and Catholics together proclaim, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.” (Dt 6:4) Jews, Catholics, Protestants, and Muslims may come together as brothers in Abrahamic faith to oppose the Mormon idea of many gods.

Jewish and Catholic teaching are both authentic revelations from God at different stages of salvation history, so they overlay one another exceptionally well. Identifying elements common to both faith traditions helps them to love one another.

From both faith and long experience, the Church knows that her Shepherd will lead His flock to safe pasture.
“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.” (Jn 15:18) He added, “In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” (Jn 16:33)

From article: From Memory to Reconciliation
 
u2bonogirl said:
so youre saying that the first followers of Christ were catholics? :scratch:

The early Christ-ians were followers of Christ. They were Jewish, Old Testament people. Christ ushered in a new era, a new covenant, written about and known as the New Testament.

The catholic church is any of several churches claiming to have maintained historical continuity with the original Christian Church.

Roman Catholic is the Christian Church based in the Vatican and presided over by a pope.
Pope - the head of the Roman Catholic Church.
Peter, a fisherman who was one of the apostles of Jesus, was commissioned by Jesus as the first Pope. “The Rock” that Jesus based his church on.

Christ gave Peter “the Keys to the Kingdom”, establishing him as His Vicar on Earth. Throughout the Old Testament Yahweh is called the 'Rock'.
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

This may be boring to read below but may help to answer your question:

Catholic is a religious term with a number of meanings:

• The term can refer to the notion that all Christians are part of one Church, regardless of denominational divisions.
This "universal" interpretation is often used to understand the phrase "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" in the Nicene Creed.

• It can be used to refer to those Christian churches who maintain a belief that their episcopate can be traced directly back to the Apostles, and that they are therefore part of a broad catholic (or universal) body of believers.
Among those members who regard themselves as Catholic but not Roman Catholic are the various Orthodox churches (Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox),Anglo-Catholics (also known as High Anglicans) and the Old Catholic churches.
The various churches that regard themselves as part of a broad Catholic Church are distinguished by their use of the Nicene Creed which prays for the "one holy catholic and apostolic Church". The Nicene Creed is also used by the Roman Catholic Church.

Not all Christian denominations view themselves as part of a broad Catholic Church. Methodism and Presbyterianism, though Christians who believe themselves as owing their origins to the Apostles and the early Church, do not claim a descent from ancient church structures such as the episcopate.

Early Christians used the term to describe the whole undivided Church, the word's literal meaning is universal or whole.
When divisions arose within the Catholic Church, the Church fathers and the historic creeds used it to distinguish the mainstream body of orthodox Christian believers from those adhering to sects or heretical groups.

A millennium before the Protestant Reformation, St. Augustine wrote:
"In the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age.
The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep (Jn 21:15-19), down to the present episcopate. (The Pope)

The Roman Catholic Church which published a "Catechism of the Catholic Church" in 1992, can be traced historically to be, basically, the continuation of the original Catholic or universal Church, from which other groups broke away at various times in history.
 
from the new RollingStone interview

III. A SPIRITUAL LIFE

What role did religion play in your childhood?

I knew that we were different on our street because my mother was Protestant. And that she'd married a Catholic. At a time of strong sectarian feeling in the country, I knew that was special. We didn't go to the neighborhood schools -- we got on a bus. I picked up the courage they had to have had to follow through on their love.

Did you feel religious when you went to church?

Even then I prayed more outside of the church than inside. It gets back to the songs I was listening to; to me, they were prayers. "How many roads must a man walk down?" That wasn't a rhetorical question to me. It was addressed to God. It's a question I wanted to know the answer to, and I'm wondering, who do I ask that to? I'm not gonna ask a schoolteacher. When John Lennon sings, "Oh, my love/For the first time in my life/My eyes are wide open" -- these songs have an intimacy for me that's not just between people, I realize now, not just sexual intimacy. A spiritual intimacy.

Who is God to you at that point in your life?

I don't know. I would rarely be asking these questions inside the church. I see lovely nice people hanging out in a church. Occasionally, when I'm singing a hymn like . . . oh, if I can think of a good one . . . oh, "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" or "Be Thou My Vision," something would stir inside of me. But, basically, religion left me cold.

Your early songs are about being confused, about trying to find spirituality at an age when most anybody else your age would be writing about girls and trouble.

Yeah. We sorta did it the other way around.

You skipped "I Want to Hold Your Hand," and you went right . . .

. . . Into the mystic. Van Morrison would be the inverse, in terms of the journey. It's this turbulent period at fifteen, sixteen, and the electrical storms that come at that age.

There was also my friend Guggi. His parents were not just Protestant, they were some obscure cult of Protestant. In America, it would be Pentecostal. His father was like a creature from the Old Testament. He spoke constantly of the Scriptures and had the sense that the end was nigh -- and to prepare for it.

You were living with his family?

Yes. I'd go to church with them too. Though myself and Guggi are laughing at the absurdity of some of this, the rhetoric is getting through to us. We don't realize it, but we're being immersed in the Holy Scriptures. That's what we took away from this: this rich language, these ancient tracts of wisdom.

So is that why you were writing such serious songs when you're nineteen?

Here's the strange bit: Most of the people that you grew up with in black music had a similar baptism of the spirit, right? The difference is that most of these performers felt they could not express their sexuality before God. They had to turn away. So rock & roll became backsliders' music. They were running away from God. But I never believed that. I never saw it as being a choice, an either/or thing.

You never saw rock & roll -- the so-called devil's music -- as incompatible with religion?

Look at the people who have formed my imagination. Bob Dylan. Nineteen seventy-six -- he's going through similar stuff. You buy Patti Smith: Horses -- "Jesus died for somebody's sins/But not mine . . ." And she turns Van Morrison's "Gloria" into liturgy. She's wrestling with these demons -- Catholicism in her case. Right the way through to Wave, where she's talking to the pope.

The music that really turns me on is either running toward God or away from God. Both recognize the pivot, that God is at the center of the jaunt. So the blues, on one hand -- running away; gospel, the Mighty Clouds of Joy -- running towards. And later you came to analyze it and figure it out.

The blues are like the Psalms of David. Here was this character, living in a cave, whose outbursts were as much criticism as praise. There's David singing, "Oh, God -- where are you when I need you?/You call yourself God?" And you go, this is the blues.

Both deal with the relationship with God. That's really it. I've since realized that anger with God is very valid. We wrote a song about that on the Pop album -- people were confused by it -- "Wake Up Dead Man": "Jesus, help me/I'm alone in this world/And a fucked-up world it is, too/Tell me, tell me the story /The one about eternity/And the way it's all gonna be/Wake up, dead man."

Soon after starting the band you joined a Bible-study group -- you and Larry and Edge -- called the Shalom. What brought that on?

We were doing street theater in Dublin, and we met some people who were madder than us. They were a kind of inner-city group living life like it was the first century A.D.

They were expectant of signs and wonders; lived a kind of early-church religion. It was a commune. People who had cash shared it. They were passionate, and they were funny, and they seemed to have no material desires. Their teaching of the Scriptures reminded me of those people whom I'd heard as a youngster with Guggi. I realize now, looking back, that it was just insatiable intellectual curiosity.

But it got a little too intense, as it always does; it became a bit of a holy huddle. And these people -- who are full of inspirational teaching and great ideas -- they pretended that our dress, the way we looked, didn't bother them. But very soon it appeared that was not the case. They started asking questions about the music we were listening to. Why are you wearing earrings? Why do you have a mohawk?

How did you end up leaving that?

I think we just went on tour.

And forgot to come back?

Well, we'd visit. If you were going to study the teaching, it demanded a rejection of the world. Even then we understood that you can't escape the world, wherever you go. Least of all in very intense religious meetings -- which can be more corrupt and more bent, in terms of the pressures they exert on people, than the outside forces.

What draws you so deeply to Martin Luther King?

So now -- cut to 1980. Irish rock group, who've been through the fire of a certain kind of revival, a Christian-type revival, go to America. Turn on the TV the night you arrive, and there's all these people talking from the Scriptures. But they're quite obviously raving lunatics.

Suddenly you go, what's this? And you change the channel. There's another one. You change the channel, and there's another secondhand-car salesman. You think, oh, my God. But their words sound so similar . . . to the words out of our mouths.

So what happens? You learn to shut up. You say, whoa, what's this going on? You go oddly still and quiet. If you talk like this around here, people will think you're one of those. And you realize that these are the traders -- as in t-r-a-d-e-r-s -- in the temple.

Until you get to the black church, and you see that they have similar ideas. But their religion seems to be involved in social justice; the fight for equality. And a Rolling Stone journalist, Jim Henke, who has believed in you more than anyone up to this point, hands you a book called Let the Trumpet Sound -- which is the biography of Dr. King. And it just changes your life.

Even though I'm a believer, I still find it really hard to be around other believers: They make me nervous, they make me twitch. I sorta watch my back. Except when I'm with the black church. I feel relaxed, feel at home; my kids -- I can take them there; there's singing, there's music.

What is your religious belief today? What is your concept of God?

If I could put it simply, I would say that I believe there's a force of love and logic in the world, a force of love and logic behind the universe. And I believe in the poetic genius of a creator who would choose to express such unfathomable power as a child born in "straw poverty"; i.e., the story of Christ makes sense to me.

How does it make sense?

As an artist, I see the poetry of it. It's so brilliant. That this scale of creation, and the unfathomable universe, should describe itself in such vulnerability, as a child. That is mind-blowing to me. I guess that would make me a Christian. Although I don't use the label, because it is so very hard to live up to. I feel like I'm the worst example of it, so I just kinda keep my mouth shut.

Do you pray or have any religious practices?

I try to take time out of every day, in prayer and meditation. I feel as at home in a Catholic cathedral as in a revival tent. I also have enormous respect for my friends who are atheists, most of whom are, and the courage it takes not to believe.

How big an influence is the Bible on your songwriting? How much do you draw on its imagery, its ideas?

It sustains me.

As a belief, or as a literary thing?

As a belief. These are hard subjects to talk about because you can sound like such a dickhead. I'm the sort of character who's got to have an anchor. I want to be around immovable objects. I want to build my house on a rock, because even if the waters are not high around the house, I'm going to bring back a storm. I have that in me. So it's sort of underpinning for me.

I don't read it as a historical book. I don't read it as, "Well, that's good advice." I let it speak to me in other ways. They call it the rhema. It's a hard word to translate from Greek, but it sort of means it changes in the moment you're in. It seems to do that for me.

You're saying it's a living thing?

It's a plumb line for me. In the Scriptures, it is self-described as a clear pool that you can see yourself in, to see where you're at, if you're still enough. I'm writing a poem at the moment called "The Pilgrim and His Lack of Progress." I'm not sure I'm the best advertisement for this stuff.

What do you think of the evangelical movement that we see in the United States now?

I'm wary of faith outside of actions. I'm wary of religiosity that ignores the wider world. In 2001, only seven percent of evangelicals polled felt it incumbent upon themselves to respond to the AIDS emergency. This appalled me. I asked for meetings with as many church leaders as would have them with me. I used my background in the Scriptures to speak to them about the so-called leprosy of our age and how I felt Christ would respond to it. And they had better get to it quickly, or they would be very much on the other side of what God was doing in the world.

Amazingly, they did respond. I couldn't believe it. It almost ruined it for me -- 'cause I love giving out about the church and Christianity. But they actually came through: Jesse Helms, you know, publicly repents for the way he thinks about AIDS.

I've started to see this community as a real resource in America. I have described them as "narrow-minded idealists." If you can widen the aperture of that idealism, these people want to change the world. They want their lives to have meaning. And it's one of the things that the Democratic Party has missed out on. You know, so much of the moral high ground in the past was Democratic: FDR, RFK, Cesar Chavez. Now I suppose it's Hillary's passion for cheaper medical care. And Teddy Kennedy, of course.
(Posted Oct 20, 2005)
 
I did find Bono's tongue in cheek comment at one of the recent Boston concerts about God being a Catholic quite interesting....:wink:

Then he went on and said that God was probably from a mixed religious marriage.

Remind you of anyone? :laugh:
 
I'm confused about the catholic talk, do people think bono is a catholic, cause he is a born again christian.

as i read earlier, i too hate catholic bashing, i used to be a catholic, but needed more i felt from god, i wanted a relationship with god , not man made rules. I was taught that if i was a good person and did no major wrong things i would go to heaven , then i read that this was a lie. That the only way to heaven was to be born again (John 3:3) this put awhole new perspective about grace, which bono loves, that no matter how many times i stumble if i am "saved " i am forgiven once for all . that it what made jesus so cool. that we are saved by grace not our works, which could never be good enough to get to heaven. that is why it essential to be born again. and i beleive god sees the heart not religion. but confession needs to be made to activate the new birth
 
BOYO3221 said:
[B
as i read earlier, i too hate catholic bashing, i used to be a catholic, but needed more i felt from god, i wanted a relationship with god , not man made rules. I was taught that if i was a good person and did no major wrong things i would go to heaven , then i read that this was a lie. That the only way to heaven was to be born again (John 3:3) ... that we are saved by grace not our works, which could never be good enough to get to heaven. that is why it essential to be born again. [/B]

With regard to what Catholics believe, it is said that if a lie is repeated often enough and loudly enough, people will come to believe it.
The same goes for exaggeration and false implications. Distort the truth and people will think it has some basis in fact.
Here's what Catholics believe despite the distorting of it:
Catholics believe that faith and good works are both necessary for salvation, because such is the teaching of Jesus Christ. What Our Lord demands is ``faith that worketh by charity .'' (Gal. 5 :6).
The first and greatest commandment, as given by Our Lord Himself, is to love the Lord God with all one's heart, mind, soul, and strength; and the second great commandment is to love one's neighbor as oneself. (Mark 12:30-31).
When the rich young man asked Our Lord what he must do to gain eternal life, Our Lord answered: `Keep the commandments.'' (Matt. 19:17). Although faith is the beginning, it is not the complete fulfillment of the will of God.
In an even larger sense, focussing on salvation misses the core of the gospel: love.
 
BorderGirl said:


Catholics believe that faith and good works are both necessary for salvation, because such is the teaching of Jesus Christ. What Our Lord demands is ``faith that worketh by charity .'' (Gal. 5 :6).

so what does Ephesians 2:8-9 mean when they say,

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."
 
great point learn to kneel!!!!!! . works are only to be done because they are a natural reaction to the love we have for God , not for salvation absolutely none. This is where catholocism unfortunately misses it. But i stress not all catholics miss this point. There are catholics who believe in salvation by faith through grace
 
learn2kneel said:


so what does Ephesians 2:8-9 mean when they say,

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

This has gone on over time after time after time......
It seems to always work out to a matter of semantics.

To the protestant mind we are saved by faith alone, but that faith is not true faith unless it is lived out. This is acceptable to all but a few protestant sects. A lived out faith is what catholics call faith + works.

It is a semantics battle and one that continues to divide us unnecessarily.
 
BOYO3221 said:
works are only to be done because they are a natural reaction to the love we have for God , not for salvation absolutely none. This is where catholocism unfortunately misses it. But i stress not all catholics miss this point. There are catholics who believe in salvation by faith through grace

You can no more separate faith from good works than you can separate heat from light in a flame. . . even Luther recognized this.

I think what some people fear is that if this is admitted, that people will think they can earn their way to heaven by doing good works . . . that is not Catholic teaching however. . . .

You are not understanding the Catholic view of faith and works and how they relate to Grace. . .

You are taking a legalistic approach to trying to understand our faith, but you are missing the mark .

You are missing that we see faith and works as the hearts response to God's Grace . . both responses are necessary for our justification . .. we don't attempt to quantify it .

Yes love causes the heart to respond with the deisre to have faith and do good works . .. this is what we believe. You are trying to turn our understanding of the need for part of the heart's response to be in Good works into legalism.

It is God's Grace that enables us to respond in both faith and Good Works . . . It is our choice to respond to God's Grace. It is our choice how we respond. How we respond in both faith and Good works justifies or fails to justify us.
.
 
Jamila said:

many people (including Bono) don't want any denomination or philosophical branch of Christianity to take him up as their own.

I think what Bono means is that publically he does not want to be used by a denomination for the purpose of their using him as propaganda.
Who would want that?
But I doubt that he would deny himself the opportunity to identify with one church or another in his personal life away from the limelight.
 
hi border girl , i understand what you are saying , but i am a former catholic who went to catholic school and know what i was taught. what i am saying is the bible says that salvation is a free gift, with no strings attached. meaning even if you did not ever do good works, as long as you were born again you will go to heaven. it is a gift we could never earn. thats why we have to be born again, cause thats what the ten commandments were for, to show us we could never be good enough and needed a savior to get us there. It is only by jesus we get to heaven no good works at all. that is why the grace message is so amazing, that even a murderer like charles manson if he repented and got born again seconds before his death would still go to heaven and get all the blessings a "good" person would get. this is why bono loves grace so much it makes no sense to our carnal mind
 
LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:


Yeah, but you were saying how he is a unique Christian for having a relationship w/ God without the Church.....check your church history and it's pretty obvious that this IS the reasoning behind the Protestant Reformation - they didn't believe a Church was necessary to be genuinely religious. For example, they didn't believe you had to confess to a priest for forgiveness, but that sins are dealt with between the sinner and God only. So, yes, you were describing Bono as textbook Protestant.

Actually, LivLuvAndBootlegMusic, from what I've studied, the Protestant "religion" was not started to be disassociated with "a church". The Protestant religion began as a reform by a man named Martin Luther (hence the name of the Lutheran Church) who was a Catholic Monk. His two main problems with the Catholic church at that time in history were that only Priests, Monks and the heirarchy of the Catholic church were ALLOWED to read the Bible. Martin Luther's second objection to the Catholic church was the fact that he believed that "the church" was believing more in icons/idols/artifacts (such as rosaries or whatever the Catholic church was "peddling" to the people at that time to generate more and more riches for the Roman Catholic church). I hope I am not offending any of you Catholics out there; I am just trying to describe through historic facts how "protestantism" found it's "beginnings".

Martin Luther's legacy is that he is the man who translated the Latin Bible into HIS German language so that the common man could read it, as the common people were NOT allowed to read The Bible (not to mention the fact many did not read Latin!)

During his time of translating the Roman Catholic Bible into his native language he had to be kept in hiding because the Catholic heirarchy wanted to kill him! Martin Luther brought the first Bible "to the people" in a language they could understand. I do believe this is how protestantism began, and then of course The Bible was then translated into other languages.

As far as Bono being quoted as "a unique Protestant", I don't believe that is true, unless he was quoted as saying that?

What many of us protestants believe is that we would like one church and one name -- just Christian (based upon the word of God). From what I've read, Bono, Edge and Larry (in their early days) belonged to what is called a non-denominational church (which is basically a church based on a mingling together of ALL protestant denominations), which is the type of Church I belong to. Perhaps this is what was meant by "a unique Christian". I do believe Bono is still non-denominational.

As far as being saved through good works only -- that is not what The Bible says. The Bible says we are saved through Jesus Christ, and good works, yes, are "the fruit".

Sorry if I sounded preachy. :madwife:
 
BOYO3221 said:
[B
i am a former catholic who went to catholic school and know what i was taught. what i am saying is the bible says that salvation is a free gift, with no strings attached. meaning even if you did not ever do good works, as long as you were born again you will go to heaven. it is a gift we could never earn. thats why we have to be born again, cause thats what the ten commandments were for, to show us we could never be good enough and needed a savior to get us there.
[/B]

I encourage you to see a deeper understanding of your former church since perhaps you've been seduced a bit by anti-Catholic tracts.
The fault isn’t yours completely since I'm sure you trust the sources you've had.

One key Scripture reference to being "born again" or "regenerated" is John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus here refers to baptism. "Born again" Christians claim the "water" is the preached word of God.

But the early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5).

No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.
 
Thank you BorderGirl for the scripture passages. I have only been studying for seven months.

I was baptised as a baby in the Catholic Church; however, I have not yet been baptised as an adult.

Might you possibly be able to explain the difference?

Thanks and hugs.
 
SummerLily said:
Thank you BorderGirl for the scripture passages. I have only been studying for seven months.

I was baptised as a baby in the Catholic Church; however, I have not yet been baptised as an adult.

Might you possibly be able to explain the difference?

Thanks and hugs.

Since you were already baptised as a baby there is no need for a second baptism.

Baptism (CCC 1213–1284)
Because of original sin, we are born without grace in our souls, so there is no way for us to have fellowship with God. Jesus became man to bring us into union with his Father. He said no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is first born of "water and the Spirit" (John 3:5)—this refers to baptism.

Through baptism we are born again, but this time on a spiritual level instead of a physical level. We are washed in the bath of rebirth (Titus 3:5). We are baptized into Christ’s death and therefore share in his Resurrection (Rom. 6:3–7).

Baptism cleanses us of sins and brings the Holy Spirit and his grace into our souls (Acts 2:38, 22:16). And the apostle Peter is perhaps the most blunt of all: "Baptism now saves you" (1 Pet. 3:21). Baptism is the gateway into the Church.

So congratulations---you've arrived.
 
SummerLily said:


the fact that he believed that "the church" was believing more in icons/idols/artifacts (such as rosaries or whatever the Catholic church was "peddling" to the people at that time to generate more and more riches for the Roman Catholic church). I hope I am not offending any of you Catholics out there; I am just trying to describe through historic facts how "protestantism" found it's "beginnings".

Tell me you don't seriously believe the Catholic church was "fundraising" by selling rosaries back in the 1500's?

:slant:
 
BorderGirl said:


Since you were already baptised as a baby there is no need for a second baptism.

Baptism (CCC 1213–1284)
Because of original sin, we are born without grace in our souls, so there is no way for us to have fellowship with God. Jesus became man to bring us into union with his Father. He said no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is first born of "water and the Spirit" (John 3:5)—this refers to baptism.

Through baptism we are born again, but this time on a spiritual level instead of a physical level. We are washed in the bath of rebirth (Titus 3:5). We are baptized into Christ’s death and therefore share in his Resurrection (Rom. 6:3–7).

Baptism cleanses us of sins and brings the Holy Spirit and his grace into our souls (Acts 2:38, 22:16). And the apostle Peter is perhaps the most blunt of all: "Baptism now saves you" (1 Pet. 3:21). Baptism is the gateway into the Church.

So congratulations---you've arrived.

Thank you for your opinion on this question, as I attended one Protestant Church which insisted I must be baptised AGAIN as an adult. However, that is not my home church. My Pastor agrees with you.
 
BorderGirl said:


Tell me you don't seriously believe the Catholic church was "fundraising" by selling rosaries back in the 1500's?

:slant:

Actually Border Girl, that is what WAS occurring in the 1500's according to the history OF Martin Luther. Martin Luther as a Catholic Munk despised the selling of the Catholic "whatnots" and do-dads" or "indulgences" as they were called during that time in history to very, very poverty striken people. (These so-called "indulgences" from the Catholic Church were not necessarily roraries, but more like "pay this much to stand where St. Peter stood and your mother/father/daughter/son/etc will not die." etc, etc. There were many "indulgences" the Catholic Church was peddling at that time, but I should correct that and say not necessarily roraries. The Rosary is a lovely symbol).

What Martin Luther basically was saying is the people do not need that token or this object (which they really could not afford anyways) to have a relationship with God, he was saying they need a personal relationship with God through the reading of the holy scriptures (which was not allowed among "the commoners").

But then again, fundraising across all denominations still occurs to this day. But I don't want to get into that issue.

-- The God I believe in isn't short of cash, Mister! -- Bono
 
hi border girl, i see what you are saying but you forgot the biggest scripture ever John 3:3 in the king james says "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"

then romans 10:9 goes on to explain this in further detail, that baptism is not being born again. also if you read the numerous scriptures paul talks about the new birth in expicit detail about salvation not being by works.
 
here is pauls describing salvation exactly in detail from the king james the amplified bible even goes into more detail

romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 
SummerLily said:


But then again, fundraising across all denominations still occurs to this day. But I don't want to get into that issue.

-- The God I believe in isn't short of cash, Mister! -- Bono

Funny how we don't have a problem paying for things we consume but when we're in a church building we resent being asked (not forced, that would be different) to pay for anything.
Practically speaking somebody has to pay that air conditioning bill. :eyebrow:
 
BOYO3221 said:
here is pauls describing salvation exactly in detail from the king james the amplified bible even goes into more detail

romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Sounds like you are describing Catholic confession above.

The Catholic position on salvation can be summed up thus: We are saved by Christ's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Grace alone -- but a grace we have to co-operate with. Thinking that all one has to do is be a "good person" to be saved is wrong.

James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The Bible and the Catholic Church don't separate the "works of faith," preceded and caused by grace, from salvation.

The Catholic Church condemns the idea that one can work his way to Heaven on his own merit or that God "owes" a person for doing the right things.

All our works get their merit only from Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf. We can do "works" 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for the rest of our lives, but without Christ's grace, they are nothing. Works have no merit in themselves -- and faith without works is not enough. We are saved by grace alone -- a grace that we accept neither "by faith alone" nor "by works alone," but "by faith that works in charity" (Galatians 5:6).
 
BOYO3221 said:

hi border girl, i see what you are saying but you forgot the biggest scripture ever John 3:3 in the king james says "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"

then romans 10:9 goes on to explain this in further detail, that baptism is not being born again. also if you read the numerous scriptures paul talks about the new birth in expicit detail about salvation not being by works.

Ok----here goes a long post so grab a coffee....

Many non-Catholics, in their zeal for Jesus, are constantly asking Catholics if we are "born again," admonishing us that unless we are "born again" we cannot be saved.

But, Catholics, like St. John the Evangelist in the third chapter of his Gospel, relate the phrase "born again" to the results of Baptism. Baptism is how we enter into the New Covenant, in the same way the Hebrews and Israelites entered the Old Covenant through circumcision (which, you'll note, was done to infants).

When many Protestants use the phrase "born again," they seem to be referring to an "emotional experience."
Traditional Catholics most certainly agree that repentance is necessary and that inner transformation (or "sanctification") is the goal, but we are very conscious of not confusing "feelings" with "faith."
These are two different things, and mere "feelings" can lie: ask anyone who's ever been "love-bombed" in a cult, experienced sheer bliss, been to a U2 concert :)woo hoo!, or is just having a really excellent day.
These sorts of experiences must be discerned.

As to "personal relationship with Jesus, " think of the great Saints -- everyone from Thérèse de Lisieux to St. Francis -- are these people not "born again" in the Protestant sense of "having a deep relationship with Christ" ?

Another question Catholics often hear is, "Have you been saved?"
Catholics, though, don't see eternal salvation as a one-time event that one can pinpoint and relate to others by saying, for example, "I was saved at 5:30 pm on 23 October 1988 when I got on my knees and accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior."

We think of salvation, ultimately, as a process that is begun with faith and Baptism (or just Baptism in the case of infants) and is then "worked out" (Phillipians 2:12) as we endeavor to "put on Christ." Additionally, we don't see salvation as something that can't be lost (2 Peter 2:20-21).

Most Catholics, of course, are able to speak of specific events such as the first time they truly "got it" that Jesus is Lord or that the Church and its Scriptures are true; many are able to tell specific stories of experiences of the Holy Spirit.
Many have wonderful stories of healings, consolation, and miracles. But to speak of "having been saved," in the past tense, is something we tend not to do unless we are speaking about our Baptism, at which time we were first justified.
We speak, instead, of "being saved," in the present tense, as we obey Him after Baptism and endeavor to keep accepting the gift of salvation which we could never earn on our own.

Many Protestants tend to see salvation in legal terms: "I believe, therefore, I am saved because that is God's promise to me. As long as I believe, I can't lose my salvation because the terms of the contract are that I simply believe and I will be saved."

Catholics see salvation more in terms of kinship, our adoption into God's very family, our becoming, literally, true children of God and inheriting Christ's sonship through Jesus' sacrifice.
We see "working out our salvation" as those things we, inspired by the Holy Spirit, are called to do as children of God, in the same way that a child honors an earthly parent -- and we see God's gift of eternal salvation to us as an inheritance from our Father rather than a "pay-off" for having fulfilled a "contract" by a simple assertion of faith.

:heart:
 
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