Bono as an idol, CoeXisT and Bono's faith

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coemgen said:


I see where you're coming from, but if this is true, then why did he have to die on the cross? You know?
Same can be asked the other way around.


coemgen said:

This may sound harsh, but I believe the shades of gray often occur when we want the Bible to fit our own views.

I definately see it the other way around. I think the more black and white we paint God the more we force God to our views.

I mean just look at all the discussions of homosexuality. "It's wrong because the Bible says so and the Bible is God's word"...this is the end of discussion for many.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:

Same can be asked the other way around.

Actually, what do you mean by this? (I'm probably missing something.) My point was if you can be saved without Christ's work on the cross, then why did he do it? If you accept him as Lord and Savior, but deny the sacrifice he made for you, then can you really call him Lord? Can you really know him?
 
Irvine511 said:




well then i guess i'll have nothing else to say.

:angry:




;)

I knew you'd want to jump on that. :wink:
And seriously, I'm all for talking with you about it, but we've already been there done that 100 times.
:|
 
coemgen said:


But that's just it, God did make only one way. Mohammed didn't claim to be God. Neither did Buddah. Christ did though. You see? These other religions don't have a savior either. How can they all be right?

Because there is more than one way to skin a cat.

And it's very possible that your view is the wrong one. Just because you believe you are right does not make you right. (same with any and every other religion or lack of religion too) I find it incredibly arrogant when people state "God did make only one way." It's saying you know all of god's ideas and plans. It makes your god very shallow and that just doesn't make sense to me.

Christians say "but it's in the bible" and point to various verses to prove their point. Other religions have books they can point to also -- sacred books to them, just as the bible is to you. I take all of them with a grain (well, often a lot more than a grain) of salt, because every single one of them is pushing an agenda -- a human agenda -- because all of them were written by humans (no matter where you believe the inspiration came from, all were written down by human). So I see no definitive proof being able to be offered by anyone that their way is the only way.

If you believe there is a god and that god created people, it makes no sense to me that a god which created so many different races, languages, and cultures within this world, but then decided to make only one really narrow way to find god.

When bad things happen -- natural disasters, wars, illness, etc., all the preacher types tell us "we can't know what god is thinking, we just have to trust in him." (ok most of the preacher types -- a few numbskulls do claim to know what god is thinking) If we don't know what god is thinking about with these bad things, how can we claim to know what god is thinking regarding religion? (and remember, I don't buy the "because it's in the bible" -- or any other religion's book/books -- as being solid irrefutable proof)

And it's possible that everyone is wrong and god's looking at us shaking his head and saying "I knew I should have baked that one (world) a bit longer. Oh well, off to the next world. Maybe I'll have better luck there."
 
coemgen said:


Actually, what do you mean by this? (I'm probably missing something.) My point was if you can be saved without Christ's work on the cross, then why did he do it?

My point is why would he make the sacrifice for man, if all men weren't going to benefit from it?

coemgen said:

If you accept him as Lord and Savior, but deny the sacrifice he made for you, then can you really call him Lord? Can you really know him?

Here's where I have the problem.

You say you have to know him and accept him in order to benefit from his sacrifice. First of all I've never interpreted "through me" to necessarily mean that. Secondly how about all those that have never heard about the real Christ? Some parts of the world have never even heard of Christ, others have, but not the real Christ.

So what about all of them? It would be a worthless sacrifice if only a select few got saved from it.
 
I'm sure BVS meant all women too. :flirt: :p


Comgen, here's how I think of it. Let's say a Muslim in for example Malaysia is living a holy Mulim life--giving alms, loving others, seeking God's will as he or she understands it. Even abstaning from sex and alcohol. :shocked: ;) God is not unjust, I think we can agree. Has this person really had the same chance to "know Christ" (whatever we mean by that, which might be worth unpacking) as, say, myself? Who was raised Catholic in a basically Christian country culturally speaking? If you can answer "no, s/he hasn't", isn't it logical to believe that God might call this person righteous?

If I owe a debt that I cannot pay, and Someone pays it for me....let's say I log onto my bank account one day and see that my student loans are all paid....well, is it necessary for me to know how it happened or Who paid it? This analogy may or may not work. I'd be interested in ya'lls thoughts. :)
 
indra said:
I find it incredibly arrogant when people state "God did make only one way." It's saying you know all of god's ideas and plans. It makes your god very shallow and that just doesn't make sense to me.

When it comes to salvation, we DO know God's plans, actually. That's what the Gospel is. The "Good News." Let's just say it is true, he's the only way. He's the savior that was prophecised in the Old Testament. Is God shallow then? Or his he a loving God? This is a heavy question with a lot of weight.

If you believe there is a god and that god created people, it makes no sense to me that a god which created so many different races, languages, and cultures within this world, but then decided to make only one really narrow way to find god.

What's wrong with that? He's God -- he can do whatever he wants? :wink:
 
Sherry Darling said:

Comgen, here's how I think of it. Let's say a Muslim in for example Malaysia is living a holy Mulim life--giving alms, loving others, seeking God's will as he or she understands it. Even abstaning from sex and alcohol. :shocked: ;) God is not unjust, I think we can agree. Has this person really had the same chance to "know Christ" (whatever we mean by that, which might be worth unpacking) as, say, myself? Who was raised Catholic in a basically Christian country culturally speaking? If you can answer "no, s/he hasn't", isn't it logical to believe that God might call this person righteous?

That's the big question we all have to ask. We're all sinners. We've all done things that go against God's holiness out of our own greed. Christ didn't. That's why he was the one that had to die in our place for "The wages of sin is death." He's the standard. Not some girl in malaysia who's done great things with her life. The truth is, as much as I'm sure that girl is a good person, she sins too. That's why Christ died for all and when we accept the sacrifice, then we're able to seek forgiveness for our sins and his righteous is attributed to us when judgement comes.
 
Sherry Darling said:
Comgen, here's how I think of it. Let's say a Muslim in for example Malaysia is living a holy Mulim life--giving alms, loving others, seeking God's will as he or she understands it. Even abstaning from sex and alcohol. :shocked: ;) God is not unjust, I think we can agree. Has this person really had the same chance to "know Christ" (whatever we mean by that, which might be worth unpacking) as, say, myself? Who was raised Catholic in a basically Christian country culturally speaking? If you can answer "no, s/he hasn't", isn't it logical to believe that God might call this person righteous?

A lot of the problem in adressing this issue is that it all depends on our human notion of justice. I see many posts saying "if GOd is all loving, then He should...." or "if God is righteous, then He should..." We are simply inserting our own desires for what God should or should not do in place of the totality of Scripture.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
My point is why would he make the sacrifice for man, if all men weren't going to benefit from it?

The key point is that all men (and women) can benefit from His sacrifice.

Too me, it would be foolish to willingly go to the Cross with the expectation that we can approach God anyway we want to.
 
nbcrusader said:
Too me, it would be foolish to willingly go to the Cross with the expectation that we can approach God anyway we want to.



how much choice does a Hindu in Calcutta have to "go to the cross"? how much choice does a Tibetan monk have to "go to the cross"?
 
BVS :kiss: :hug:

NBC--there are numerous depersonalized social forces--poltiical, cultural, geographical, etc--that could easily do so.

Respectfully, Comegen and NBC, it seems you're skirting around the point of my question a bit. I am not setting Ms. Malaysia up as the Standard that Christ is. I am saying it's totally conceivable to me that God, who cannot be unjust, might well consider the circumstances of each person's life in all its complexity.

Where do works fit in here, by the way? Many scriptures throughout the OT and NT suggest that they are vital to a "saving faith". James and Matt 25 come to mind, as does Revelations.

Thanks for this thread. :) It just might inspire me to ask another tough question I've had in my head lately, which is if God is a god of peace, why in the world does the Bible have so much war?
 
nbcrusader said:


That doesn't deny anyone the choice.

And that is the one of the reasons people feel called to serve as missionaries.

You're contradicting yourself here, Doug. People become missionaries precisely because they recognize the barriers Irvine and I have referred to.
 
I am Catholic.....in the Good Sheperd scriptures..Jesus plainly states that >>> I have flocks that are not of this fold, and I will gather them also...... is that so very hard to interpret?? To me it fits perfectly with Bono's stance and...we are all sons of Abraham...I hate people who think they are wiser than God!!! Susan:mad:
 
Sherry Darling said:


You're contradicting yourself here, Doug. People become missionaries precisely because they recognize the barriers Irvine and I have referred to.

No, Irvine said they were denied a choice. Missionaries help to clarify the choice.



But this is really a non-issue to the basic premise (and not directed to anyone in particular): who is Jesus Christ to you?
 
Sherry Darling said:
Where do works fit in here, by the way? Many scriptures throughout the OT and NT suggest that they are vital to a "saving faith". James and Matt 25 come to mind, as does Revelations.

Obviously a massive topic in its own right. I guess the meaning of the verse must be consistent with other verses that suggest that salvation is by faith alone (suggesting that works can equal pride).

I've always felt that works are the expression of thanks for the gift of grace.
 
ArrogantU2Fan said:
I am Catholic.....in the Good Sheperd scriptures..Jesus plainly states that >>> I have flocks that are not of this fold, and I will gather them also...... is that so very hard to interpret?? To me it fits perfectly with Bono's stance and...we are all sons of Abraham...I hate people who think they are wiser than God!!! Susan:mad:

Jesus, speaking to Jews, was referring to Gentiles. The concept that salvation would be extended to Gentile believers was radical.
 
nbcrusader said:


That doesn't deny anyone the choice.

And that is the one of the reasons people feel called to serve as missionaries.



and that is why i am so, so turned off by so many of Christ's followers.

the arrogance and chauvinism combined with condescention and incidental racism really irks me.
 
coemgen said:


When it comes to salvation, we DO know God's plans, actually. That's what the Gospel is. The "Good News." Let's just say it is true, he's the only way. He's the savior that was prophecised in the Old Testament. Is God shallow then? Or his he a loving God? This is a heavy question with a lot of weight.



What's wrong with that? He's God -- he can do whatever he wants? :wink:

But the thing is you don't know that. You think you know it. You believe you know it. You believe the gospels are god's word, but you can't possibly know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they really are only gods words without any interference from humans. You believe that's what they are -- you believe your way is the only way. But that's why you are called a believer instead of a "knower" -- it's not something you can irrefutably prove.

I think the bible Christians follow was targeted at a specific group of people in a specific geographical region and with a specific culture. And the texts of other religions were targeted to other specific people, regions, and cultures. I think many of our current problems with clashing religions come from our (as humans) inability or unwillingness to see the similarities because we are too caught up in the differences.

And I do feel that if the only way to be "with god" is to be a Christian then that god is indeed a mean selfish bastard and I want no part of it. All religions (at least all of the major ones) have many really good points and all have a way of reaching/communing/whatever with their version of god. For a god to expect people to pick the one "right" choice in 75 or fewer years or fry, especially if the so called "right" choice isn't the one they grew up with (and so had to dig it out themselves) -- well, no I don't find that a loving god. Not at all.

Of course maybe god is just fucking with everyone -- telling all people their way is the only way and all others are wrong. He could be kicked back laughing his ass off over our petty squabbles and confusion.


I think it all comes down to various people's perspectives on the issue/situation. I look around and think "no matter what I believe (in regards to god etc.), I will never know beyond a shadow of a doubt, so I can't be sure everyone else is wrong."

What I get from you is that you believe you have found what is without a doubt absolutely correct, so you can feel sure other people are wrong.
 
Sherry Darling said:

I am not setting Ms. Malaysia up as the Standard that Christ is. I am saying it's totally conceivable to me that God, who cannot be unjust, might well consider the circumstances of each person's life in all its complexity.
I agree. I've already stated this in earlier posts.
:wink: However, billions of people have heard about Christ. There's a decision to be made.



Where do works fit in here, by the way? Many scriptures throughout the OT and NT suggest that they are vital to a "saving faith". James and Matt 25 come to mind, as does Revelations.
This is another good question. Many people see the verse in James as evidence that works are required to be saved. This contradicts other verses. Paul tells us it's by faith alone, yet James says a faith without works is dead. Who's right? They both are. They don't contradict. James isn't saying works will save you, he's saying a saving faith produces works. Does that make sense? The truth is, the only work that saves us is that which was done on the cross. That's the beauty of it. If it were up to our own doings, we'd be screwed. How do you overcome a debt big enough that God himself had to come down and die to pay the price?


Thanks for this thread. :) It just might inspire me to ask another tough question I've had in my head lately, which is if God is a god of peace, why in the world does the Bible have so much war?

I'm glad you like the thread. :wink: I started it because the conversation on the Relevant podcast and the article it's responding to brought up some important points. I thought'd it'd lead to good discussion. I've appreciated you and everyone else sharing their perspectives and adding to the discussion. If we are to CoExisT, discussions such as these are key. :up:

I'll try to answer your last question tomorrow. I've got to go pick up my wife from work and take the baby sitter home. Actually, NB will probably be able to bring something to your question. He's the man. :wink:

God bless, all.

coemgen
 
I could've sworn Bono actually says, "Jesus, Jew, Muhammed, it's true...all sons of Abraham." This is obviously quiet different that "all true."
Had the author of the article actually done their homework. I do find it offensive that the author's friend thought Bono looked like the anti-christ.
Furthermore, since when did coexistance mean co-believing?
 
For those interested, here's kind of a response article to the one that took a crack at Bono's CoeXisT comments. It's from the Web site of Steve Stockman, the author of "Walk On: The Spiritual Journey of U2." It's rather good.




I guess as I am recognized as a bit of a U2 nerd that I should be the first place people might turn to vent their anger and find opinion. Yet, there is something that links me more intricately to this particular piece; Relevant who sent the article is my publisher and are even giving away free copies of said book to those who sound off about the article! There are many issues raised by the article and by the fact that Relevant published it. I will deal with the Relevant side of it in communication with the company directly so let me simply deal with how it effects are understandings of U2 and Christianity.

U2? To be honest it gets tiresome, and maybe even more so when you have spent most of the past five years writing books and tracking across the world speaking about U2’s faith, when evangelical Christians still have to somehow catch Bono out. We will come to the truth of the COEXIST bandana in a moment but first let us see what Bono has said about his Christian faith this year.

In a recent Q magazine Bono gives pretty much his conversion prayer, telling God he was available for whatever God had for him. Within weeks he joined U2 and started dating Alison Stewart, his future vocation and life partner. Pretty quick and significant answers! He adds, “I couldn’t let go of my faith. But what’s more interesting is that I don’t think God will let go of me.”

The month before in Rolling Stone he spoke extensively about his spiritual life, Scriptures and how that faith is very much of a Christian variety. He points out the wonder of the incarnation, “And I believe in a poetic genius of a creator who would choose to express such unfathomable power as a child born in “straw poverty”, i.e. the story of Christ makes sense to me.”

Perhaps the most significant pontification about his faith comes in the book Bono in Conversation with Michka Assayas. Endlessly quoting Bible stories and digging deep in the Old and New Testament for nuggets of wisdom, Assayas is irritated by the endless Scripture references and not at all able to believe what Bono believes. It is in such intimate conversation that we find Bono coming closest to explaining his faith. The divinity of Christ and effects of the cross are defined with a CS Lewis-like apologetic but perhaps one of his most powerful observations is about the relationship between Karma and Grace.

He said, “I really believe we’ve moved out of the realm of Karma and into one of Grace…You see at the centre of the all religions is the idea of Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics – in physical laws – every action is met by an equal or opposite one. It’s clear to me that Karma is at the every heart of the Universe. I’m absolutely sure of it. And yet, along comes this idea called Grace to upend all that, “as you sow, so will you reap” stuff. Grace defies reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is every good news indeed, because I’ve done a lot of stupid stuff…I’d be in big trouble if Karma was finally going to be my judge. I’d be in deep smurf. It doesn’t excuse my mistakes, but I’m holding out for Grace. I’m holding out that Jesus took my sins onto the cross, because I know who I am, and I hope I don’t have to depend on my own religiosity.”

This is pretty explicit and clear and it does a variety of things in relation to Tara’s article. First, it should explain to her where Bono stands with the Christian faith. If it is Grace and not works (or Karma) then he seems to be depending on the right things; God’s unmerited favour redeeming him in the cross. Secondly it should show what Bono thinks of his Christian belief alongside other faiths. As far as I know the only one offering Grace is Christianity. Bono has never shared any clear commitment to any other belief system than Christianity. He has never espoused any new age, super-market do-it-yourself religion.

Indeed, Bono has always showed suspicion for all religions including institutionalized Christianity, though he has been reconciled somewhat with it in recent years. So that in concert Bono would be proclaiming all religions in some preaching way to a congregation would be against the grain of all that he has said for the past twenty five years and that he would somehow claim to believe them all equally would be a contradiction of most of his spiritual utterances this year.

What Tara needed to do, was to ask why? Why would Bono be wearing such a headband? What was the aim of the act? How does it relate to the belief in Christ that Bono so obviously has? A little more research would have helped enlighten her. Her article comes out after the release of the official DVD of the Vertigo Tour. I went straight to that document to allow Tara’s words to caress and collide with the actual events. I quickly discovered that Bono says, at least in Chicago, “Jesus, Jew, Mohammed…it’s true… all sons of Abraham.” And indeed that is true. Isn’t it? Of course when I watched the same scene in Vancouver, back in April, I had been researching the revised edition of my Walk On book and had documented Bono’s idea of a museum in Europe that would bring all three ancestors of Abraham together to see what they had in common at their source. It is part of Bono’s peace initiative worldwide. He wants us to see what indeed is true about all three faiths that are doing all kinds of harm to each other at this moment in history.

So once we see where Bono is coming from and get a more accurate quotation and understanding we should maybe move on further and try to learn something about Christianity and how it will relate to our times. In the postmodern world (lazy term but I hope you know what I mean) we are not going to defined, or find any power, in what we are not or what we are opposed to. Tara’s article betrays an insecurity about evangelical Christianity that needs to be discarded. In the new dispensation we need to start believing that the truth is strong enough. We don’t need to damn everything else for us to get saved. Getting saved will damn what needs damned. The saved will be saved no matter. We need to begin to portray the positive, life changing, society transforming power of Christ. If we do, we don’t need to insult or antagonize our neighbours of different faiths. It is down to belief. Either truth is strong and true or it is not. If it is weak then we maybe do have to beat to a pulp anything that threatens it.

In all aspects of his life Bono has decided to be a friend. He has relationships with atheists, hedonists, druggies, philanderers, war mongers, greedy capitalists, fascists, Marxists… you name it. It is about COEXISTence! What he has decided to do with this wide array of human beings is to recognize that they are all made in the image of God and loved by that God, so much that he would become a baby in straw and a man on a cross for them. In not distancing them by their beliefs, or by their behavioural decisions, Bono has a voice among those whom he feels Jesus would move amongst. He believes that the truth he utters amongst them about a whole plethora of issues is true enough to apply the power of change.

Of course in Jesus day there were those who questioned his liberal approach to the tax collector, prostitute and sinner; Bono has actually SINNER stenciled onto his leather jacket. He is humble in his confessions of his own failings. He is aware that it is sinner not Messiah that he is playing even though he’d like to see look at the world as Jesus does and bring Christ-like change. Jesus raised the heckles of the Pharisees by partying with these people, allowing them to pour expensive oils over his feet. They called him a glutton and drunkard as a result of his seeming ambiguity. He just loved them, condemned them not and spoke the truth of the love of God believing that that would change people and society.

Just one last thing and I promise I don’t mean it to be a cheap shot. Tara says of this rock concert moment, “It was, without question, the most disturbing experience of my life; I felt like I’d been covered in bile.” We have thousands of children dying because they don’t have the water and drugs that we take for granted. We have three people having more control over wealth than the sixty poorest nations. We have wars raging, some of us involved in the killing of thousands of civilians for the most dubious of reasons. We are raping the creation of our God and Father and it is causing catastrophic “natural” tragedies. In the season when God made himself poor, we are lavishing one another with joke presents and gratifying our sick materialism while people die of hunger. Only 13% of evangelical Christians in America are interested in helping with the HIV/AIDS pandemic in southern Africa. Anti-Christs are rampant and ravaging the world and the most disturbing thing is a mis-quote from a rock star. God forgive us. At least Bono believes He will!
 
I can agree with that!
As was said before, these are sons of Abraham...so one would think they would get along well.But, no,they have not.Now is the time for coexistence!After experiencing the November 8 concert, this was what I came away with: if we could shed our separation and act as one, what great things can we achieve together?Bono's optimism about the world's future, made manifest through his activism, has really inspired me to be more hopeful. Dare I say the concert changed my life?And I'm not even a christian.
 
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