Nice Guys

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And this will only make her like him more. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy! Nice guys CANNOT win, is that what you're saying, VP?

The high heels-wearing, facebook messaging, pizza dive girl of my imagination is very secure, and she'd shrug her shoulders and go "eh, whatev," and move on to someone without issues.

But yeah, you're probably right.
 
For the record, when people use the term "nice guy" in the context that this thread is based in, "nice guy" translates to "confidence-lacking, pathetic, geek-like guy."
 
For the record, when people use the term "nice guy" in the context that this thread is based in, "nice guy" translates to "confidence-lacking, pathetic, geek-like guy."

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^ I guess so . . . :shrug: . . . confidence and 'niceness' can exist in the same persona and is incredibly attractive . . . just sayin' :)

I know. :) Personally, I just don't like the term "nice guy" in this context, and I've never used to it to describe anyone, and I don't intend to in the future. Everyone is so unique that certain terms like these never properly fit their personality or character.
 
So just when I am ready to hit the bookstores or the gym or more concerts or maybe(if that awesome U2 tribute band Joshua Tree is playing) the bars, a girl I work with drops a bombshell on me! I like this girl, she is cute, very nice and intelligent, but she is kind of out there and she really does not do it for me. I can't explain it, but you all know what I mean. I have been friends with her sister and her brother in law(who is one of the higher managers at the security company I work at) for 5 years. We have gone out for pizza together in a group, but tonight, when I thought we were doing that again, her sister left her with me alone. And she was wearing heels to a dive pizza joint:hmm: Then she takes the check, wont let me see it, gives it to the waitress w/her card. I protest, and she says " I asked you, I'll pay." I responded "I got next time, then." She says "you have to ask then." I was shocked but said nothing. Manipulative much? I didn't even know it was our 1st date, and she has a cooked up in the middle of the night scheme to get a 2nd date??????????

Anyways, I get home and there is a big long Facebook message from her saying that it was really her way of asking for a date and she can't read me but she really likes me, blah, blah, blah. I honestly don't know what to do now, and I honestly haven't even read the whole damn thing. Just key points, and then I got physically sick. I had the sense she liked me but I was hoping it would stay in the friend zone without getting awkward. Now its super awkward, with the very forward facebook message, the fact that I know her sister and bro in law and that he is one of the managers of a company I have worked for the past 5 years. And I met U2 because of this job!!

So now I would of course, being a nice guy and all, feel like a jerk if I rejected her or gave her some run around that amounted to "lets be friends." Plus, going to work would be awkward, which I never wanted out of a part time job that lets me see shows and have funny stories of hauling drunk assholes out of concerts.

But now that I am finding out that getting numbers and putting yourself out there really isn't as hard as I cracked it up to be, I don't want to settle for something that wont satisfy me in the end. I know I can do better, I was given open invitations that I was afraid to respond to by better quite frequently in college.

Granted, there is definitely a bit of selfishness and bitterness involved here on my part. The way I look at it is(and this is unhealthy) I had numerous crushes and desires in the last 8 or so years and I just shut my mouth, so why should I just cave into the 1st person who is forward enough when its not really what I want? Why should I give what I never got myself? I never walked up to the super attractive, super nice, intelligent volleyball player that I had a crush on and said "lets have a date, I need to know right now do you like me, I really like you, etc" just because we had friendly conversations and smiled at each other.

Yeh, you're overanalysing. Even if you don't feel a 'connection' so far just go on a few dates, it could develop. She put herself out there and made the effort, whether you had numerous crushes and desires in the last 8 or years and just kept your mouth shut is irrelevant.
 
U2387, it sounds almost like you resent this girl a bit for having fortitude and courage that you didn't, in putting herself out there, and if I'm reading that right (admittedly, I might not be), that's really not fair to her. When you say this:



it sounds like you're punishing her for your lack of balls in the past, and that's...not nice.

That said, I do understand just not feeling it with someone (although I question if that's fully the case, or if it's some misguided punishment, as I said above). Coupled with this is the potential awkwardness and complications you might experience at work due to working with her (bad) and her relative being your boss (worse).

If you're *really* not feeling it with her, I think the kindest thing you could do is to spare her feelings by bowing out gracefully. If you think an "I'm just not that into you" is too harsh, tell her thanks, but you're interested in someone else at the moment.


No, you are not being harsh at all.

I need brutal honesty from people. Its not like I have a lot of experience here, and you correctly pointed out the line where I said myself that my attitude on this is unhealthy and burdened with a significant amount of regret.

I don't want to punish her for my lack of balls, and maybe if my attitude leads to that kind of feeling, it is secondary to 2 things: First, I just can't see myself with her. She is way out there in a lot of her views on things and though she is cute, I do not feel too strong of a physical attraction toward her. Second, as you mentioned, I work with her and her brother in law is one step down from the owner of the company in terms of level of authority over me.

I know I will see her again, go on a date, or a get together or what have you. I would like to do that and then just bow out gracefully. I think that may be a viable option because she is going back to school in a few weeks and I am trying to figure out what to do with the rest of my life- career wise and relationship wise. I just don't want to start anything now and wind up hurting her, as I think she is a unique, intelligent and caring person. I am 23 and she is 19, we are at different points in life and will soon be pretty far apart geographically as well.

At this point, I would like to try and see what is out there for me in terms of meeting girls and working through the interactions from the start to build up a potential relationship. I have (some, and its relative of course to others) new found confidence and I want to try and put that to work and build up slowly with these things.

Just as you suggest:


I'd tell you to call the girl you met at the concerts, and I'm sorry if this comes across as being harsh, but judging from the tone of your post and particularly the part I quoted above, I think you probably have a little work to do before you date or pursue a relationship with anyone. I think part of you probably recognizes this, hence your admission that your attitude is "unhealthy."

With her talk about not wanting to f up again and always telling me about her ex and other "creepy guys," I see this girl as ready to jump into a relationship right now, which I certainly am not.

I honestly do not want to hurt her and I certainly do not resent her for being forward. I actually quite admire that in someone, especially being a 19 yr old girl with a 23 yr old she is attracted to. I strive to someday be more like that myself.

As you correctly observe, I am not ready for a relationship now. Meeting people, flirting, getting numbers, dates, sure, but not a serious relationship.

The high heels-wearing, facebook messaging, pizza dive girl of my imagination is very secure, and she'd shrug her shoulders and go "eh, whatev," and move on to someone without issues.

But yeah, you're probably right.

That would be true if she wore them on her own. She told me in the facebook message that she wore them because an older, more traditional woman we work with suggested it and her friend raided her closet of everything else the night before.

She is not a girl who I ever expected to see in heels, and she said as much.

It was a bit strange, especially when I had flip flops on ! I thought it would be a group gathering, or a casual get together and not a date, so I just got out of the shower and put on my usual not at work summer shoes.

Its not like they are old navy plastic, they are the more substantial brown ones you see a lot of guys wearing, and I had a polo and nice shorts on not gym shorts, but still.....
 
I think when you call it "caving in" to someone who seemingly has some sort of feelings for you-well obviously you're not into it at all and it's not at all fair to her for you to pursue anything, even one date, when you have that attitude. Because even one date can create too many expectations-of course you're not responsible for all of those but once you take that step it becomes so much more complicated. Sorry, I'm not meaning to be rude but just coming from my point of view..I would never want any involvement with someone who had that kind of attitude about me. I know you're a young guy and all, but I still feel that way. Just don't lead a girl on in that sort of way, even to spare her feelings, if you are coming from that place. It will spare her feelings in the long run if you don't.

I'd much rather be hurt than a guy that I know to be a jerk than by one who I think is a nice guy (and nice guys can have plenty of confidence and be completely non geeky and non pathetic). It's far more heartbreaking to be hurt by the nice one. Of course you can think someone is nice but it can turn out otherwise. It's all part of life and learning experiences.
 
Well, thank you all so much for your advice and no, I am not offended by one bit of it!! Not at all. I would not have said how imperfect and somewhat bitter my view of all of this is if I wasn't open to some criticism and second guessing. I have been rude to others on here far more than they have been rude to me(as Mrs S certainly knows from observing but never being the subject of one of my FYM tirades). I have seen no rudeness/personally attacking of me in this thread from anyone.

I am so relieved right now to sit here and tell you that the dilemma is solved!! This girl sent me another message saying she wishes she could take the whole 1st message back, etc, and she just wants to be my "crazy friend." I told her exactly what I would have told her had she not sent this latest message- "I don't see it working and I don't want to hurt anyone, especially such a nice, intelligent, unique and caring person like you."

As for the forward part, I told her unequivocally that I actually quite admire that in a girl!

Basically, she felt awkward for doing what she did, I told her she did not have to and we can carry on being friends, which is what I always wanted!

Continue as you were with this very interesting thread before I hijacked it with my amateurish crap.......

And thank you all again!
 
I already posted this earlier, but I think it got lost in the thread, I'm confused about this issue, so I'm reposting . I hope that its okay. :)

Hi-

Can anyone please explain in more detail what "he doesn't know what he wants" means? I hear how women want a man that "knows what he wants", but I've never fully understand what that means. Does it mean that he has to be quick & decisive on every issue big and small (everything from, what he wants to do for a living, to where he wants to eat, to where he wants to live)? Does it mean he has to know with certainty career path he's going to follow? Obviously, it means, he has to know whether or not he wants a relationship with you a.k.a. no "middle ground". But I'm talking besides that.

Thanks
smily.gif
 
I already posted this earlier, but I think it got lost in the thread, I'm confused about this issue, so I'm reposting . I hope that its okay. :)

Hi-

Can anyone please explain in more detail what "he doesn't know what he wants" means? I hear how women want a man that "knows what he wants", but I've never fully understand what that means. Does it mean that he has to be quick & decisive on every issue big and small (everything from, what he wants to do for a living, to where he wants to eat, to where he wants to live)? Does it mean he has to know with certainty career path he's going to follow? Obviously, it means, he has to know whether or not he wants a relationship with you a.k.a. no "middle ground". But I'm talking besides that.

Thanks
smily.gif
Probably that women would like a man who can care for himself and knows on a general basis what he wants to do with his life. That he isn't a lifeless nerd who spends his life playing videogames in his mom's basement. Women need a certain sense of security, and a man who knows what he wants, who is determined, is very attractive for that. Same as how a rich man or a very strong man can also be attractive. It's not shallow, just instinct. Since they are good mates and can provide care for the offspring.

You don't need to reply to everything quickly. It's not about the short term, it's about the long term.
 
Probably that women would like a man who can care for himself and knows on a general basis what he wants to do with his life. That he isn't a lifeless nerd who spends his life playing videogames in his mom's basement. Women need a certain sense of security, and a man who knows what he wants, who is determined, is very attractive for that. Same as how a rich man or a very strong man can also be attractive. It's not shallow, just instinct. Since they are good mates and can provide care for the offspring.

Well said! :up:

Or in a more concise way: A woman wants a man who has his shit together.

And if you're a man you want a woman that's got her shit together.
 
I already posted this earlier, but I think it got lost in the thread, I'm confused about this issue, so I'm reposting . I hope that its okay. :)

Hi-

Can anyone please explain in more detail what "he doesn't know what he wants" means? I hear how women want a man that "knows what he wants", but I've never fully understand what that means. Does it mean that he has to be quick & decisive on every issue big and small (everything from, what he wants to do for a living, to where he wants to eat, to where he wants to live)? Does it mean he has to know with certainty career path he's going to follow? Obviously, it means, he has to know whether or not he wants a relationship with you a.k.a. no "middle ground". But I'm talking besides that.

Thanks
smily.gif

When I hear that phrase, specifically, it usually means to me that the woman wants a man who actually wants to be in a relationship, full stop, and doesn't want to deal with his ambivalence about being with her.

More generally, it can apply to his entire lifestyle, I suppose. Those who are more decisive about things like career, activities, etc, are often more settled and make better relationship partners than someone who is drifting aimlessly through life.
 
When I hear that phrase, specifically, it usually means to me that the woman wants a man who actually wants to be in a relationship, full stop, and doesn't want to deal with his ambivalence about being with her.

More generally, it can apply to his entire lifestyle, I suppose. Those who are more decisive about things like career, activities, etc, are often more settled and make better relationship partners than someone who is drifting aimlessly through life.


VP, that says perfectly my thoughts as well!:D
 
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