Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi #7

[Kieran McConville]

Oh my fucking god the Greens just lost another deputy leader, Larissa Waters.

She's a dual citizen. She was born in Canada to Australian parents and the law about dual citizenship there changed a week after she was born. She believed she was not a citizen and had to actively seek it by age 21, which was true when she was born. But I'm guessing, without having read the text of the law that came into force later in February 1977, that those born under the old law who were yet to reach the age of 21 were covered by the new law.

Fuck me.

Also, meant to respond to what Kieran posted but honestly not much more I can add than agreement. Though I wonder where to now for the Greens after Ludlam and Waters! Not only have they lost two senior figures, but, well, for this to happen once is an accident; twice looks like ineptitude.

Alas, I fear it's just terrible bad luck. Like you said in the other post, dollars to donuts there are sitting parliamentarians in this country for Labor or Coalition who are also vulnerable, if it came to it.

I mean, it is ineptness of a sort, but in Waters' case (and maybe kind of in Ludlum's too), it's not like these people would expect or assume that they are dual citizens. I suppose it would fall into the 'shit, I guess I should have asked about that one time' category.

 

[Axver]

There are some really shit takes and a whole lot of factually inaccurate reporting about the citizenship thing out there. I posted a couple of short Twitter threads about this.

One on Waters and opting in to Canadian citizenship: https://twitter.com/DrDreHistorian/status/887258281999089665

Another on the wider issue that the constitution never intended to disbar those born in the British Empire/Commonwealth from holding office in Australia: https://twitter.com/DrDreHistorian/status/887269674441822209

The courts are pretty much bound by the wording of the constitution, but the framers never envisaged people like Ludlam and Waters could be ruled ineligible. That said, I think Waters might have won a court challenge. Ludlam couldn't - he made no attempt to check. But the courts have ruled that dual citizens can hold office if they have made reasonable attempts to renounce their other citizenship, or in good faith believed they held only one citizenship. Waters' understanding of Canadian citizenship law was correct for her date of birth, and she deliberately did not seek Canadian citizenship before her 21st birthday. She demonstrated clear intent to only hold Australian citizenship, which by my understanding of past judgements would satisfy legal precedent to hold onto her seat.

 

[Kieran McConville]

And indeed, there's every chance Waters will be back one way or another. Ludlum, I'm not sure. Possibly not. Not sure if he even wants it that much, or enough to go through a struggle over it. His press comments were along the lines of wanting to go off and do something else, like play more Dungeons & Dragons possibly. Or design stuff.

This is one of those awkward situations where our constitution is in many respects a relic of the British Empire, but... it is our constitution. It's incredibly unlikely to change anytime soon in substance. The interpretation of it by the courts, you'd think, is a slightly fuzzier area. It's funny how the high court in this country never attracts the feverish attention that America's supreme court does. Less overtly politicised? That's a rhetorical question, obviously it is. The degree to which Supreme court appointments by the US president are understood to be nothing more than rubberstamp ciphers for one or another ideological position is astounding in many ways (not that it always works out in practice).

 

[cobl04]

Remind me to RT those tomorrow Ax!

 

[Kieran McConville]

Regrettably I am only on twitter as the fictional, and highly alcoholic, mother of an equally fictional former presidential candidate (ie. my facebook account). It's fucked up.

 

[Axver]

Remind me to RT those tomorrow Ax!

This is your reminder.

And indeed, there's every chance Waters will be back one way or another. Ludlum, I'm not sure. Possibly not. Not sure if he even wants it that much, or enough to go through a struggle over it. His press comments were along the lines of wanting to go off and do something else, like play more Dungeons & Dragons possibly. Or design stuff.

Yeah, Ludlam sounds like he might be done, which is a right shame. Waters will be back by 2019 at the latest.

Weird that Waters' resignation opens the door for Andrew Bartlett, ex-Democrats, to return to the senate.

This is one of those awkward situations where our constitution is in many respects a relic of the British Empire, but... it is our constitution. It's incredibly unlikely to change anytime soon in substance. The interpretation of it by the courts, you'd think, is a slightly fuzzier area. It's funny how the high court in this country never attracts the feverish attention that America's supreme court does. Less overtly politicised? That's a rhetorical question, obviously it is. The degree to which Supreme court appointments by the US president are understood to be nothing more than rubberstamp ciphers for one or another ideological position is astounding in many ways (not that it always works out in practice).

Yeah, indeed. Though in this case the court's hands are bound quite tightly by the constitution's wording. s44 doesn't give them much room to move. I honestly wonder if the reforms to citizenship were made with any consideration to parliamentary eligibility. I do suppose that there could be a legislative route to fix this - a modification of the citizenship law to add a clause that the laws should not be read to disbar from office somebody who would have been eligible at the enactment of the constitution. But that would be cumbersome and, perhaps, invalid anyway.

It's a shame we're stuck like this. "Let foreigners sit in parliament" will never succeed as a referendum. We're already known as a country that passes very few referenda!

 

[Kieran McConville]

I'm pretty sure every country (except perhaps the French who are now on what, their sixth republic) is known as a country that passes very few referenda. It's just a big fucking deal. All the more reason to get it right (for whatever value of that phrase) the first time. Trouble is, nobody can anticipate the future. In 1891-1900, Britain and its satellites were the premier world power. Now, not so much. Take note, Yanks.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Why would Waters' departure have anything to do with Bartlett... oh wait, I guess he is with the Greens now. Seemed like an ok guy in a lot of ways, going by his (possibly defunct) blog, and notwithstanding a long ago personal meltdown.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Apropos of nothing, as y'all know I'm not big on making any effort to attend concerts, so it's good that this great audio from Midnight Oil's current tour (Seattle) made it to Youbutt:



There's a real dearth of good shit online, mostly it's just a song, two songs, whatever, give me a break. Or terrible audio. But this one hits all the marks and proves to me that the guys are in fine fettle after all. Seriously, do the Oils ever have an off night? They're incredibly tight.

The days I've wasted drinking at the first and last hotel...

You know, it's a funny thing, but at some point it struck me that... I forget the guy's name... the other band member who tends to do backing vocal duty on a lot of their songs puts me in mind a little of the Stipe/Mills dynamic in REM. Just a similarity of vocal tone.

 

[intedomine]

Rob Hirst? Got a great voice. Sounded good in the handful of Ghostwriters songs that I've heard.

Was very tempted to go to the Music Bowl gig on Nov 6, but was a bit dissuaded by the venue. I adore the Oils. 10 to 1 and 20,000 Watt are on regular rotation from time to time. Maybe I will get a ticket..

 

[cobl04]

I really need to listen to their music.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Rob Hirst? Got a great voice. Sounded good in the handful of Ghostwriters songs that I've heard.

Was very tempted to go to the Music Bowl gig on Nov 6, but was a bit dissuaded by the venue. I adore the Oils. 10 to 1 and 20,000 Watt are on regular rotation from time to time. Maybe I will get a ticket..

Yeah, that's him, Rob Hirst.

I thought they'd done all their Australian shows now and were off in America and Europe and stuff, but what would I know. Maybe they're doing more here later in the year.

 

[Kieran McConville]

I really need to listen to their music.

I'd start with Place Without A Postcard and go through without a break to Earth And Sun And Moon. Although I don't think any of their albums are horrible, they go off the boil a bit after that. (well, sort of, I have to give Redneck Wonderland more credit)

 

[kabigon]

Rob Hirst? Got a great voice. Sounded good in the handful of Ghostwriters songs that I've heard.

Was very tempted to go to the Music Bowl gig on Nov 6, but was a bit dissuaded by the venue. I adore the Oils. 10 to 1 and 20,000 Watt are on regular rotation from time to time. Maybe I will get a ticket..

If you find a lawn ticket, I'd advise arriving early and aiming for a rail spot due to the distance and slope (a bit awkward on your feet after a while if you don't have something to lean against).

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Walked past Caleb Bond yesterday evening and then this morning. Bloody hell.

 

[AndrewCowley]

I'd start with Place Without A Postcard and go through without a break to Earth And Sun And Moon. Although I don't think any of their albums are horrible, they go off the boil a bit after that. (well, sort of, I have to give Redneck Wonderland more credit)

I don't think they went off the boil. Capricornia is fantastic. Breathe is pretty good too.

A bit like REM, they were an activist band where the world stopped listening in spite of the music still being darn good.

 

[Axver]

I'm pretty sure every country (except perhaps the French who are now on what, their sixth republic) is known as a country that passes very few referenda. It's just a big fucking deal. All the more reason to get it right (for whatever value of that phrase) the first time. Trouble is, nobody can anticipate the future. In 1891-1900, Britain and its satellites were the premier world power. Now, not so much. Take note, Yanks.

Australia's especially tough though, with the need for a majority of states as well as a majority of voters. If Brexit, for example, had had to meet an equivalent threshold it would have never passed. There are a number of referenda here that would've succeeded if you only needed 3/6 states rather than 4/6.

America will go down in history as a very short-lived world power. 1945 to 2016? Who fucking cares? My grandmothers, who are both still very much alive, were born when Britain was the eminent power ahead of the US or the Soviets! That USA/USSR duel for global supremacy, and the bullshit "Pax Americana" of the nineties, look quite peculiar in hindsight.

Britain, funnily enough, probably could have reasserted itself as the global power if it hadn't fallen down that shithole of Tory austerity and Brexit. The Brits might not have the dominant military, but by god their institutional memory of how to run shit and play people off against each other runs deeper than anybody else's. Now it's Germany* or China, really.

*The EU, if the Germans feel inclusive and the kids play well together. But let's be honest about who's got their hand on the tiller here.

But this one hits all the marks and proves to me that the guys are in fine fettle after all. Seriously, do the Oils ever have an off night? They're incredibly tight.

I saw them in Copenhagen a few weeks ago while I was in Europe. I got really lucky - a theatre that holds 1,000 people (not going to see them in front of such a small crowd here!), and the longest set of the tour so far, barring small fanclub warmup shows. I couldn't believe how tight they were, it was incredible. They're playing ridiculous setlists, varying it up a lot, trying to play every song from their discography at least once across the course of the tour - when I checked a few days ago, they'd played 91 songs across 42 shows so far. And yet the rarely-played tracks I got, you'd never know; they were sharp like they'd been played every night.

And to answer one of your other posts, they did just a handful of secret/limited sale warmup club gigs in Sydney in April before heading off overseas. The main Aussie tour later this year is massive. I'm actually kind of surprised they're not playing Toowoomba.

Was very tempted to go to the Music Bowl gig on Nov 6, but was a bit dissuaded by the venue. I adore the Oils. 10 to 1 and 20,000 Watt are on regular rotation from time to time. Maybe I will get a ticket..

I'm doing the gig on 8 November. I'm no Oils fanboy, but after how fucking great the Copenhagen show was, and how much they're varying their setlists, I figured I'd add to my Wollongong gig with one of the Melbourne ones. I was probably coming down for the Mono show two nights later anyway.

I really need to listen to their music.

WHAT.

HOW HAVE YOU REACHED ADULTHOOD WITHOUT DOING SO.

ARE YOU EVEN AUSTRALIAN.

Walked past Caleb Bond yesterday evening and then this morning. Bloody hell.

WHAT.

HOW HAVE YOU REACHED MAKING THIS POST WITHOUT PUSHING HIM INTO TRAFFIC.

ARE YOU EVEN ON THE LEFT.

 

[Kieran McConville]

I don't think they went off the boil. Capricornia is fantastic. Breathe is pretty good too.

A bit like REM, they were an activist band where the world stopped listening in spite of the music still being darn good.

The second part I entirely agree with. Activist political rock and roll bands were not fashionable in the nineties, after the so-called 'end of history'. Didn't alter the value of what they were about.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Australia's especially tough though, with the need for a majority of states as well as a majority of voters. If Brexit, for example, had had to meet an equivalent threshold it would have never passed. There are a number of referenda here that would've succeeded if you only needed 3/6 states rather than 4/6.

True enough, that 4/6 states rule makes for a very different picture.

America will go down in history as a very short-lived world power. 1945 to 2016? Who fucking cares? My grandmothers, who are both still very much alive, were born when Britain was the eminent power ahead of the US or the Soviets! That USA/USSR duel for global supremacy, and the bullshit "Pax Americana" of the nineties, look quite peculiar in hindsight.

Ditto my parents (both born around 1930). Now in hindsight, Britain was probably well holed below the waterline after the first world war, but on paper it still looked impressive. What is more impressive is that it maintained that status for so long without, so far as I can tell, ever having a terribly impressive military. It certainly never had anything like the modern American military machine.

Britain, funnily enough, probably could have reasserted itself as the global power if it hadn't fallen down that shithole of Tory austerity and Brexit. The Brits might not have the dominant military, but by god their institutional memory of how to run shit and play people off against each other runs deeper than anybody else's. Now it's Germany* or China, really.

*The EU, if the Germans feel inclusive and the kids play well together. But let's be honest about who's got their hand on the tiller here.

Eh, I dunno, it may have institutional memory, but it doesn't really have it where it counts (ie. recent prime ministers and cabinets strike me as pretty lightweight).

I saw them in Copenhagen a few weeks ago while I was in Europe. I got really lucky - a theatre that holds 1,000 people (not going to see them in front of such a small crowd here!), and the longest set of the tour so far, barring small fanclub warmup shows. I couldn't believe how tight they were, it was incredible. They're playing ridiculous setlists, varying it up a lot, trying to play every song from their discography at least once across the course of the tour - when I checked a few days ago, they'd played 91 songs across 42 shows so far. And yet the rarely-played tracks I got, you'd never know; they were sharp like they'd been played every night.

Yeah, wow, they're really showcasing the whole career it sounds like. One of the (poorer quality) South American shows I checked out had them playing nearly all of Earth and Sun and Moon before they got into other stuff, as far as I could tell.

And to answer one of your other posts, they did just a handful of secret/limited sale warmup club gigs in Sydney in April before heading off overseas. The main Aussie tour later this year is massive. I'm actually kind of surprised they're not playing Toowoomba.

Ah right, that makes sense. And, if they genuinely aren't playing Toowoomba, that is surprising. By way of comparison, artists like Paul Kelly (and I'm not sure the Oils would be drawing bigger crowds these days) do and have stopped in this city. Odd.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Walked past Caleb Bond yesterday evening and then this morning. Bloody hell.

I'm not entirely sure who Caleb Bond is. Wait, he's that kid, right? That kid that does that stuff.

 

[intedomine]

If you find a lawn ticket, I'd advise arriving early and aiming for a rail spot due to the distance and slope (a bit awkward on your feet after a while if you don't have something to lean against).

[emoji106] good tip. Definitely would wanna get there earlier.

I love the front section of the Music Bowl. Was there for National and Tame Impala and it was just a perfect place to be. I'd imagine I'd feel deflated if I was too far back for a really impressive on-stage band

 

[Vlad n U 2]

WHAT.

HOW HAVE YOU REACHED MAKING THIS POST WITHOUT PUSHING HIM INTO TRAFFIC.

ARE YOU EVEN ON THE LEFT.

Well, the traffic was still on both occasions. I had the misfortune of witnessing someone approach him and praise him though, I was close enough to hear him say 'oh thank you!' in that dweeby voice of his.

I'm not entirely sure who Caleb Bond is. Wait, he's that kid, right? That kid that does that stuff.

Unfortunately.

 

[Kieran McConville]

What kind of name is Caleb, anyway.

 

[Axver]

Ditto my parents (both born around 1930). Now in hindsight, Britain was probably well holed below the waterline after the first world war, but on paper it still looked impressive. What is more impressive is that it maintained that status for so long without, so far as I can tell, ever having a terribly impressive military. It certainly never had anything like the modern American military machine.

You don't really need the most impressive military when you control the seas. If you have the main form of international travel locked down, you've got the game sorted.

To an extent Britain lost its Empire because it increasingly declined to hold it by force - it would not commit a large enough number of troops to hold onto its possessions. The grants of responsible government to the settler colonies in the mid-nineteenth century really just delayed the inevitable. If Lord Durham, et al. had not come up with that creative solution, the Canadian and Australasian colonies would have followed the US example much quicker and not remained within the Empire/Commonwealth. And once demands for decolonisation swept the resource colonies, it was either let them go or a protracted bloodbath. Of course, there were enough bloodbaths as it was, so I hate to think what it would've been like if Britain had been determined to retain its possessions at any cost.

Eh, I dunno, it may have institutional memory, but it doesn't really have it where it counts (ie. recent prime ministers and cabinets strike me as pretty lightweight).

The lightweight qualities of their recent cabinets only seem to mirror a global trend. Where, exactly, can be said to have a heavyweight government in the past decade? Not here that's for sure. Gillard, for sheer ability to pass legislation, was at least midweight, but a heavyweight cabinet is both highly able and successfully projects that ability.

Ah right, that makes sense. And, if they genuinely aren't playing Toowoomba, that is surprising. By way of comparison, artists like Paul Kelly (and I'm not sure the Oils would be drawing bigger crowds these days) do and have stopped in this city. Odd.

They're playing places like Alice Springs, Rockhampton, Wodonga, and Coffs Harbour, so that makes the omissions all the more surprising. And the venues in the capital cities are pretty damn big. I don't think Paul Kelly could sell out the Sidney Myer Music Bowl or the Sydney Domain in a heartbeat!

 

[Kieran McConville]

You don't really need the most impressive military when you control the seas. If you have the main form of international travel locked down, you've got the game sorted.

To an extent Britain lost its Empire because it increasingly declined to hold it by force - it would not commit a large enough number of troops to hold onto its possessions. The grants of responsible government to the settler colonies in the mid-nineteenth century really just delayed the inevitable. If Lord Durham, et al. had not come up with that creative solution, the Canadian and Australasian colonies would have followed the US example much quicker and not remained within the Empire/Commonwealth. And once demands for decolonisation swept the resource colonies, it was either let them go or a protracted bloodbath. Of course, there were enough bloodbaths as it was, so I hate to think what it would've been like if Britain had been determined to retain its possessions at any cost.

Oh absolutely. And for a look at what holding on at any cost, through sheer bloody repression looks like, see Algeria under the French. Vietnam. There have been worse empires than Britain's to be sure. And brutal repression is the only way they could have hung on to India after world war II. Doable? Maybe, technically, maybe not. By then, the US had a lot of financial sway over what Britain decided.

I'm constantly struck by how much of this vast globe spanning empire was acquired by accident, on the cheap, usually as a result of the government moving in to formalise messes created by various merchants and men-of-fortune who happened to be British nationals. Up into the early nineteenth century they were actually reluctant to deal with the bother of places like southern African, but that was before the diamonds and the scramble for Africa.

The lightweight qualities of their recent cabinets only seem to mirror a global trend. Where, exactly, can be said to have a heavyweight government in the past decade? Not here that's for sure. Gillard, for sheer ability to pass legislation, was at least midweight, but a heavyweight cabinet is both highly able and successfully projects that ability.

Too true. And along with that trend you could probably pack the tendency for elected governments to be comprised of youngish PR/spiv types 'serving' the public en route to a nice corporate lifestyle somewhere. Time was, you stayed in parliament till you were incontinent.

They're playing places like Alice Springs, Rockhampton, Wodonga, and Coffs Harbour, so that makes the omissions all the more surprising. And the venues in the capital cities are pretty damn big. I don't think Paul Kelly could sell out the Sidney Myer Music Bowl or the Sydney Domain in a heartbeat!

No well, fair enough, I hadn't looked into where they were playing in the capital cities, but a lot of these overseas shows (yeah I get it, it's overseas, not their home turf) seem to be in mid-sized theatre type settings, which is very much what we have here with our Empire Theatre. The Empire Theatre would be perfect for them if they were coming, but they ain't, so, whatevs.

 

[Axver]

Oh absolutely. And for a look at what holding on at any cost, through sheer bloody repression looks like, see Algeria under the French. Vietnam. There have been worse empires than Britain's to be sure. And brutal repression is the only way they could have hung on to India after world war II. Doable? Maybe, technically, maybe not. By then, the US had a lot of financial sway over what Britain decided.

I'm constantly struck by how much of this vast globe spanning empire was acquired by accident, on the cheap, usually as a result of the government moving in to formalise messes created by various merchants and men-of-fortune who happened to be British nationals. Up into the early nineteenth century they were actually reluctant to deal with the bother of places like southern African, but that was before the diamonds and the scramble for Africa.

Hah, yeah I was going to mention French Indochina as an example of how retaining a bloodyminded grasp on your colonies can create even greater calamities than those that occurred in the decolonisation period throughout the British Empire. It's interesting, the whole better/worse empires thing. I find there's a very simple narrative binary - either empire is an old glory to look back upon or an unmitigated evil and anybody who sees any virtue in it is a racist or a shill for racists. Empires were complex. They were indeed guilty of heinous sins, whether it be the British, French, Spanish, Russians, whoever. But most empires also stimulated great developments. It's a whole lot more nuanced than any attempt at simple characterisation. And I'd suggest those who hold up the British Empire as the paragon of all imperial evil are Anglocentric themselves and should check out a few other empires first, though I would also question the value of ranking empires.

And if we want to talk about British reluctance to gain colonies, look no further than New Zealand! If Britain had wanted it, it could've moved in during the 1790s, and definitely by the 1810s. Instead it increasingly disavowed any claim, especially in the early/mid 1830s. This delay was probably for the best too - I'm not convinced a treaty would've been signed earlier.

No well, fair enough, I hadn't looked into where they were playing in the capital cities, but a lot of these overseas shows (yeah I get it, it's overseas, not their home turf) seem to be in mid-sized theatre type settings, which is very much what we have here with our Empire Theatre. The Empire Theatre would be perfect for them if they were coming, but they ain't, so, whatevs.

Yeah, no doubt their popularity in Australia and New Zealand is far ahead of anywhere else in the world. That's why I squeezed in a gig on their European leg - not a hope in hell of seeing them in such a small venue here unless you luck upon one of their secret warmup gigs.

 

[Kieran McConville]

You know one funny thing about that Seattle show I posted the video of? I can't prove it, but I'm fairly certain that an audience member yells towards the end 'I love you bono!' A confused punter, possibly.

 

[Kieran McConville]

And I'd suggest those who hold up the British Empire as the paragon of all imperial evil are Anglocentric themselves and should check out a few other empires first, though I would also question the value of ranking empires.

Yes, history is complex. I gather it was to the Ottomans that some Jews found a haven in the wake of mass expulsions by the triumphant reconquista in Spain toward the end of the 15th century. Muslims welcoming Jews, who'da thunk it. I'm being wry, obviously.

Nevermind that we have plenty of empires today, one way or the other, and not just the US. What is China if not a Han empire dominating a landlocked area including plenty of people of other ethnicities.

And if we want to talk about British reluctance to gain colonies, look no further than New Zealand! If Britain had wanted it, it could've moved in during the 1790s, and definitely by the 1810s. Instead it increasingly disavowed any claim, especially in the early/mid 1830s. This delay was probably for the best too - I'm not convinced a treaty would've been signed earlier.

Yeah, indeed. I think, probably it's the mid and late ninteenth century when you get the real hard-edged 'white man's burden' imperialism, the duty to civilise the world and all that. I used to read up a lot on India years ago, and was struck by how the early generations of East India Company men so often went native, converted to Islam and took multiple wives and so forth. All terribly scandalous to the pitiless protestant empire men who moved in after 1857. They remind me a little of modern Americans.

 

[cobl04]

Went to the first live taping of Sideliners tonight - new ABC panel sports chat show. It's in a fucking horrible time slot (6pm Fridays, jesus christ) but it's really, really good. Informed chat, some fantastic new talent, heavy on females which is extremely refreshing (4-1 ratio tonight) and genuinely funny sketches. Here's one: https://www.facebook.com/sideliners/videos/1434217966645300/

 

[Axver]

Yes, history is complex. I gather it was to the Ottomans that some Jews found a haven in the wake of mass expulsions by the triumphant reconquista in Spain toward the end of the 15th century. Muslims welcoming Jews, who'da thunk it. I'm being wry, obviously.

Nevermind that we have plenty of empires today, one way or the other, and not just the US. What is China if not a Han empire dominating a landlocked area including plenty of people of other ethnicities.

Yep, the Ottoman Empire was certainly much better than Western Europe if you happened to be Jewish. Sure you were still at a legal disadvantage but there was a legitimate social space marked out for you, rather than murderous persecution.

China and Russia are both most certainly modern imperial powers. I don't know how people overlook Russia as an empire. They seem to take the two revolutions of 1917 as ending Russia's imperial age, which is just silly when it retained possession of its imperial lands to the south and east!