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Wow. Um..

Anyway I think Assange might be an attention whore w/ issues who has little or no regard for the lives that he's potentially endangering. But I guess he's just saving the world from America, or something like that.
 
And again this conveniently ignores the fact that Wikileaks does indeed do a variety of things not to endanger lives by releasing such information.
 
there was a good documentary on ITV1 UK tv last night, John Pilger's "The War We Don't See"... kind of eye-opening to hear some of the facts and figures confirmed, most of which people are aware of, if they are informed... John Pilger has been very vocal and active in his support of Julian Assange and wikileaks

in this age of so-called morality, where civilian deaths have now reached 90% in Iraq, compared to 70% in Vietnam, 50% in WW2 and 10% in WW1, wikileaks has a vital role to play in telling us what the hell is going on really... most of the leaks are things people know about or have suspected underneath...

bless you Mrs Springsteen LOL
 
lol? Well check out the ABC News investigative report from last night about his big ego and questions about what he has done with donated money. He kept messaging employees asking them who was leaking information about HIM to the media that he didn't want to get out. Isn't it ironic, don't you think? Unless ABC is in on the conspiracy against him :shrug: Maybe they are, everyone else is I guess.

Maybe people should wait before turning this guy into some sort of idol
 
:up:

yeah i kind of think it's important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater at least...

but, for the record, i support Assange as well as wikileaks itself - i believe Assange is the victim of character assassination (fwiw, the allegations against him would not be classed as rape in the UK, being consensual but unprotected sex, and wouldn't even get a jail sentence in Sweden, just a fairly insignificant fine)... it makes a mockery of our justice system that he is behind bars without any charges having been made... his treatment is shocking indeed, and is clear abuse of the European Arrest Warrant - whatever happened to "innocent before being proven guilty" eh?

from yesterday's Guardian:

The case of Julian Assange has again put the European arrest warrant (EAW) in the spotlight (Report, 9 December). The EAW is a valuable and successful EU instrument, cutting the delays and red tape that in the past allowed major criminals to party beyond the reach of the law.

But the EAW is restricted to "the purposes of conducting a criminal prosecution", which must mean imminent charge followed by trial. If your reports are correct that the Swedish request for extradition of Assange under an EAW is "to face questioning" or for "interview", this would appear to conflict with the high court case of Asztaslos last February, which confirmed that it is not a legitimate purpose for an EAW to be used to conduct an investigation to see whether that person should be prosecuted.

Such issues do not come up only in high-profile EAW cases, but in its everyday implementation. That is why EU justice ministers last June called on national authorities not to misuse the EAW. Normal cross-border co-operation on collection of evidence or interrogation of suspects called "mutual legal assistance", using for example videoconferencing or a summons for temporary transfer of a suspect, should be used when more appropriate.

Some lack of care by the Swedish authorities seems to be indicated by the fact that the first EAW they issued against Assange omitted details necessary for a UK court to be able to check if the warrant fulfilled all the requirements. I urge the UK courts now to refuse to allow the Assange EAW to be a fishing expedition without a pending actual prosecution. EU rules should be respected so that the integrity of the EAW process is protected.

Sarah Ludford MEP

Liberal Democrat, London
 
lol? Well check out the ABC News investigative report from last night about his big ego and questions about what he has done with donated money. He kept messaging employees asking them who was leaking information about HIM to the media that he didn't want to get out. Isn't it ironic, don't you think? Unless ABC is in on the conspiracy against him :shrug: Maybe they are, everyone else is I guess.

Maybe people should wait before turning this guy into some sort of idol

First of all, ABC is a channel in the US. Not so easy to simply check out when you are on the other side of the pond.
Second, there was no idolisation of Assange on my part at all. Don't know where you read that. All I was saying was that Wikileaks did, contrary to what you posted, make sure not to just throw out names into the public that could have endangered lives. They worked together with press and even the US government before making the cables available, and in that case as in those before blanked many names and other information. You said he had no regard for the lives, which was simply a wrong statement. Had he not had any regard, or Wikileaks as a whole for that matter, a lot more information would be public by now, and nothing would be blanked.

I don't see Assange as being the greatest person alive, and even would agree with you on the point that Assange's ego is a bit bloated. I think he has made a number of decisions that have not been helpful for wikileaks, which also led to the departure of key figures such as Daniel Domscheit-Berg.
 
lol? Well check out the ABC News investigative report from last night about his big ego and questions about what he has done with donated money. He kept messaging employees asking them who was leaking information about HIM to the media that he didn't want to get out. Isn't it ironic, don't you think? Unless ABC is in on the conspiracy against him :shrug: Maybe they are, everyone else is I guess.

Maybe people should wait before turning this guy into some sort of idol

While there are legitimate concerns regarding the modus operandi of Assange and his organisation, TBH, the last people I'd trust to provide a balanced viewpoint are ABC, or any mainstream US television media for that matter. They are provably and demonstrably in hock to corporate interests. The question of whether the likes of ABC are 'in on the conspiracy' against Wikileaks is not as as absurd as you appear to think, IMO.
 
in this age of so-called morality, where civilian deaths have now reached 90% in Iraq, compared to 70% in Vietnam, 50% in WW2 and 10% in WW1, wikileaks has a vital role to play in telling us what the hell is going on really... most of the leaks are things people know about or have suspected underneath...

bless you Mrs Springsteen LOL

Well, to be fair, I would hardly class Mrs Springsteen as an unquestioning supporter of the Iraq war or of every single thing America has done in the foreign policy sphere.
 
It's all available on their web site

WikiLeaks Founder Julian Assange: Where's the Money? - ABC News

I think it's obvious that, in general in the world, some people are idolizing the guy.

At least one person here with strong military experience posted that it's "potentially lethal" , and I think he knows about that more than we do :shrug: Just my opinion, and since all the facts really aren't available I think I'm entitled to that.
 
Well, to be fair, I would hardly class Mrs Springsteen as an unquestioning supporter of the Iraq war or of every single thing America has done in the foreign policy sphere.

i was LOL-ing at this comment which came across as extreme to me and made me raise an eyebrow or two:

Anyway I think Assange might be an attention whore w/ issues who has little or no regard for the lives that he's potentially endangering. But I guess he's just saving the world from America, or something like that

i know nothing about MrsSpringsteen's stance on any other political issues
 
It's all available on their web site

WikiLeaks Founder Julian Assange: Where's the Money? - ABC News

I think it's obvious that, in general in the world, some people are idolizing the guy.

At least one person here with strong military experience posted that it's "potentially lethal" , and I think he knows about that more than we do :shrug: Just my opinion, and since all the facts really aren't available I think I'm entitled to that.

there's not much substance to that report really is there? not much more than the infighting we already know about...

i don't know about people idolising the guy... i think people are inspired by his bravery, and appalled by the injustice he's facing at the hands of the British/Swedish legal system right now, and are joining together and being vocal about what they think is "right"... it's disturbing to see how our civil liberties are being eroded, and wikileaks has a valid role in perhaps keeping our leaders in check somehow... who knows, maybe they'll think twice before lying to us and trying to get away with murder in the future?

or maybe Assange will turn out to be the antichrist after all! :D
 
fwiw, the allegations against him would not be classed as rape in the UK, being consensual but unprotected sex

So in the UK having sex with someone while they're sleeping is considered consensual and therefore not considered rape? I don't know what really happened but that is one of the two allegations.

If that's the classification of rape in the UK (can't imagine that it is) well that is really f'ed up. I would also say that anyone who considers sex with someone while they're sleeping to be in any way consensual sex is seriously f'ed up. Condoms have nothing to do with that. That would be extreme and I'm not lol ing.

In the other case he's alleged to have 'forcefully' held her arms and used his bodyweight to hold her down to "have sex" with her without using a condom. Don't know exactly what the UK law says about that.

You were talking about the classification of the allegations against him and that's what I'm talking about, nothing more.
 
there was a good documentary on ITV1 UK tv last night, John Pilger's "The War We Don't See"... kind of eye-opening to hear some of the facts and figures confirmed, most of which people are aware of, if they are informed... John Pilger has been very vocal and active in his support of Julian Assange and wikileaks

in this age of so-called morality, where civilian deaths have now reached 90% in Iraq, compared to 70% in Vietnam, 50% in WW2 and 10% in WW1, wikileaks has a vital role to play in telling us what the hell is going on really... most of the leaks are things people know about or have suspected underneath...

bless you Mrs Springsteen LOL

Please, don't try to convince people into thinking that the war in Iraq was in any way shape or form worse for civilians than World War II. Over 50 million civilians were killed in World War II compared with 100,000 in Iraq. Hell, Saddam's Iran/Iraq war or his murder rampage after Gulf War I against the Shia in southern Iraq killed far more peopled in the country than anything that has happened in total since 2003!

Wikilinks is nothing more than some stupid juvinile website attempting to be important by throwing shit at the United States, and the anti-American bigots are all to willing to fall in line! LOL
 
First of all, ABC is a channel in the US. Not so easy to simply check out when you are on the other side of the pond.
Second, there was no idolisation of Assange on my part at all. Don't know where you read that. All I was saying was that Wikileaks did, contrary to what you posted, make sure not to just throw out names into the public that could have endangered lives. They worked together with press and even the US government before making the cables available, and in that case as in those before blanked many names and other information. You said he had no regard for the lives, which was simply a wrong statement. Had he not had any regard, or Wikileaks as a whole for that matter, a lot more information would be public by now, and nothing would be blanked.

.

Ok, so you can CONFIRM for us that not a single person's life was endangered by the illegal leaking of classified US documents?
 
Please, don't try to convince people into thinking that the war in Iraq was in any way shape or form worse for civilians than World War II. Over 50 million civilians were killed in World War II compared with 100,000 in Iraq. Hell, Saddam's Iran/Iraq war or his murder rampage after Gulf War I against the Shia in southern Iraq killed far more peopled in the country than anything that has happened in total since 2003!

Wikilinks is nothing more than some stupid juvinile website attempting to be important by throwing shit at the United States, and the anti-American bigots are all to willing to fall in line! LOL

you do realise the US is not the only target of the leaks?
 
So in the UK having sex with someone while they're sleeping is considered consensual and therefore not considered rape? I don't know what really happened but that is one of the two allegations.

If that's the classification of rape in the UK (can't imagine that it is) well that is really f'ed up. I would also say that anyone who considers sex with someone while they're sleeping to be in any way consensual sex is seriously f'ed up. Condoms have nothing to do with that. That would be extreme and I'm not lol ing.

In the other case he's alleged to have 'forcefully' held her arms and used his bodyweight to hold her down to "have sex" with her without using a condom. Don't know exactly what the UK law says about that.

You were talking about the classification of the allegations against him and that's what I'm talking about, nothing more.

i don't know how accurate those details are, as there is a lot of misinformation being bandied around the web, but it was apparently classed as "consensual sex" on the basis of the Swedish allegations... the case was also thrown out by a Swedish prosecutor several months ago as well... it just seems weird to me that it has suddenly been conveniently reopened...

wikileaks and alleged rape are two different issues altogether - it is possible to condone one and not the other...
 
bit of a worrying article... normally the US Espionage Act could not be used against Assange as he is not a US citizen - i don't know how it could be used to target WikiLeaks as wouldn't the "offence" have had to have been committed on US soil? unless they prosecute the New York Times for publishing the information... (aside from Manning, obviously...)

surely this should be a huge concern for all US citizens whether they agree with wikileaks or not, no??


A sad day for the US if the Espionage Act is used against WikiLeaks

Resurrecting the 1917 law would be a mistake: it has a history of being used to suppress dissent

Stephen M Kohn
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 15 December 2010 17.08 GMT

Numerous US officials are calling for a resurrection of the US Espionage Act as a tool for prosecuting WikiLeaks. The dusting-off of the old law is all but certain. But the outcome of the constitutional dust-up that is sure to follow will result in triumph or tragedy for the US bill of rights.

In 1917, in the midst of a war hysteria, the United States passed the Espionage Act. The law has nothing to do with prosecuting spies. From its inception, it had everything to do with suppressing dissent. The Great War was unpopular with many Americans, very like today's engagements in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Make no mistake about it. The Espionage Act targeted political dissidents. Senator Kenneth McKellar of Tennessee offered a simple defence of the law when it was introduced to Congress: "If we cannot reason with men to be loyal, it is high time we forced them to be loyal." Others, such as Congressman William Green of Iowa, were more blunt. His statement resembled modern calls supporting the execution of the suspected WikiLeaks "whistleblower" Bradley Manning: "For the extermination of these pernicious vermin no measures can be too severe."

The Espionage Act wreaked havoc on the American political left, destroying the young American Socialist party and one of its most progressive unions, the Industrial Workers of the World. Many others, including intellectuals, journalists, film producers and pacifist religious figures were also prosecuted. Prison terms were long, and some political prisoners died in federal jails. The abuses under the law were legendary, and mark a sad day in US history.

Why is the threat to prosecute WikiLeaks under the Espionage Act so potentially destructive? The law is not restricted to properly prohibiting the release of classified information. The law is not restricted to protecting legitimate government secrets. The law broadly prohibits any publication by anyone (newspapers included) of information related to national security, which may cause an "injury to the United States".

Who determines whether national security is actually at stake? Who determines what constitutes an "injury to the United States"? In 1917 the courts bent over backwards to permit the justice department to indict and prosecute thousands of dissidents. Loyalty to America meant nothing. The first amendment's protections for freedom of speech were mocked. Opposition to US war policies dictated who was jailed.

There are responsible mechanisms policing truly abusive leaks. The Espionage Act is not such a tool.

The attorney general should stop trying to resurrect the Espionage Act, and instead dust off his copy of the US constitution. If he has any question as to the meaning of the first amendment, he should read James Madison's 1789 speech, in which he introduced the bill of rights in the first Congress of the United States: "Freedom of the press, as one of the great bulwarks of liberty, shall be inviolable."
 
espionage? oh jesus christ.

"If we cannot reason with men to be loyal, it is high time we forced them to be loyal."
i know this isn't something someone said now, but as the article points out this is certainly the gist of what people are saying. i have to be honest, shit like this scares the crap out of me way more than anything another country could throw at us.

The attorney general should stop trying to resurrect the Espionage Act, and instead dust off his copy of the US constitution. If he has any question as to the meaning of the first amendment, he should read James Madison's 1789 speech, in which he introduced the bill of rights in the first Congress of the United States: "Freedom of the press, as one of the great bulwarks of liberty, shall be inviolable."
exactly.
 
something a little bit more light-hearted to keep some perspective... :hug:

8.56am: So far UN general secretary Ban Ki-moon hasn't said much about the diplomatic cables, even though they revealed that US diplomats were ordered to spy on him.

Cables showed that diplomats were asked to gather biometric details on key UN officials.

Last night Ban made light of the issue by mildly teasing the US at the annual UN Correspondents' Association dinner.

AFP reports:

Ban started his speech, to an audience that included US ambassador Susan Rice, by flashing details such as "credit card number" "shoe size" and "ring finger 7.5" onto the screen.
 
Ok, so you can CONFIRM for us that not a single person's life was endangered by the illegal leaking of classified US documents?

That is irrelevant and I have to confirm nothing. The only point is, Wikileaks is not senselessly, without any regard whatsoever, endangering lives for the sake of publishing.
 
I would also say that anyone who considers sex with someone while they're sleeping to be in any way consensual sex is seriously f'ed up.

Not really familiar with his charges or the facts of the case - so this has nothing to do with him - but I don't necessarily think this to be 100% true. Only because I can see the situation where an established couple who, say, lives together or is married, could be in a situation where one person wakes up earlier and starts to have sex with the other. I think it's a grey area (can you have prior consent? ongoing consent?), but I don't necessarily think that in that situation either party would consider it to be rape.

:shrug:
 
you do realise the US is not the only target of the leaks?

Of course. You do realise the United States is providing more than 90% of the forces and money in two major wars effect the security of the entire planet and the leaks involve classified information regarding these two wars. Can you name a country that had private or classified material leaked regarding a MORE SENSITIVE MATTER?
 
That is irrelevant and I have to confirm nothing. The only point is, Wikileaks is not senselessly, without any regard whatsoever, endangering lives for the sake of publishing.

So the fact that someone's life was endangered by the leaks of this material is "irrelevant"?

Wikileaks is taking private or classified information about wars and publishing it. That in of itself is senseless and wrong.

I seriously doubt that the majority of the military and civilian members of the coalition in Afghanistan are pleased that Wikileaks is making classified information available to Al Quada and the Taliban. The leaks certainly don't benefit the coalition and provide Al Quada and the Taliban information that they may not of found elsewhere.
 
espionage? oh jesus christ.


i know this isn't something someone said now, but as the article points out this is certainly the gist of what people are saying. i have to be honest, shit like this scares the crap out of me way more than anything another country could throw at us.


exactly.

Do you consider stealing someone's private information "freedom of the press"?
 
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