Was the Allied bombing of German cities a war crime?

[Aygo]

Originally Posted by u2popmofo

It blows, but it's how war was waged at the time. The idea that any side was morally superior than another during the period is beyond ridiculous.

Saying this is forgetting or not knowing the History of Europe, specially in the XIX century, specially of the pre/during/post WWI and, most of all, what led to WWII... And also the post-war Europe. It is basically not knowing Europe's contemporary History at all.

Yes, there was one side that was morally superior to the other. And present events shows that it still is.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by Aygo

Saying this is forgetting or not knowing the History of Europe, specially in the XIX century, specially of the pre/during/post WWI and, most of all, what led to WWII... And also the post-war Europe. It is basically not knowing Europe's contemporary History at all.

Yes, there was one side that was morally superior to the other. And present events shows that it still is.

Please, enlighten us with your lesson on the all encompassing history of Europe. You've made nothing but broad, unsubstantiated comments thus far

[Aygo]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Please, enlighten us with your lesson on the all encompassing history of Europe. You've made nothing but broad, unsubstantiated comments thus far

Where do you want to start?
On the fact that Germany invaded/occupied/destroyed foreign territories twice and seven decades later it acts as the biggest moral entity of Europe, forgetting what was forgiven, morally and economically?
On the fact that territories where fascist/proto-fascist regimes existed are regressing now and territories that accepted well german occupation are now seeing birth of neo-dictatorial or proto-fascist regimes?
Do you prefer to move to the Balcains or do you prefer to talk about the intentional distortion of the original purposes of the EU project that, in fact, is a mere evidence of the essence of Europe and of those who compose it?
Do you want to talk about the concept of living space in Europe and in the History of Europe?

[Jive Turkey]

I'd like you to somehow relate all that back to what we were actually talking about. Feel free to start wherever you'd like

[Kieran McConville]

It was vengeful in large part, but one has to remember the climate of the time. When Nazi Germany was finally beaten into submission, as I recall reading, there was serious talk in some quarters of deindustrialising the nation. This was no ordinary war.

The real tragedy is that one of the plots among the old imperial general staff holdovers, against Hitler, didn't succeed - maybe some kind of negotiated surrender could have forestalled some of this.

[bethere]

Originally Posted by u2popmofo

Essentially every historically or culturally significant building or location in Japan was targeted specifically for bombing during WW2. It's incredibly embarrassing as an American to visit ancient temples and historical sites and realize you're actually looking at the 1950's version, not the original.

It blows, but it's how war was waged at the time. The idea that any side was morally superior than another during the period is beyond ridiculous.

The idea that the Allies specifically targeted women, children, and civilian men is crazy. If this was some sort of goal, it would have continued as the US military entered both Germany and Japan. The fact of the matter is that targeting transportation networks and factories back then usually required nearly 1 thousand bombing sorties before the target was even hit. US firebombing in Japan eventually destroyed area's where Japan was attempting to build its own Atomic Bomb to use against US forces, or even the United States with some unusual delivery methods. Without the firebombing of Japan, you would of had US forces trying to invade the island in 1946 and possibly being exposed to the Japanese use of their own Atom Bomb or at least a dirty bomb.

Allied strategic bombing overall ended the war earlier and saved far more lives than it took. To let what happen on Okinawa happen all over the Japan would have ended Japan forever. Thats what you would have seen with an invasion of the islands. In Germany, without strategic bombing, every city in Germany would have been defended to the degree that Berlin was leading to millions more deaths and casualties.

Oh, and on the question of moral superiority, lets not forget who did what.

Germany, Japan and Italy were the aggressors. Both launched regional wars of aggression that eventually resulted in the deaths of over 60 million people. Germany targeted and exterminated over 6 million people simply because of their Religion. The Japanese military raped most of the women in China and the Pacific Islands that they occuipied, as well as engaging in extermination of any town that resisted their occupation. How about the treatment of US and allied prisoners of War by the Japanese.

Unfortunately, one of the Allies was not much better in its treatment of prisoners and innocent civilians. The Russian military raped nearly every women in Poland west of the vistula river going all the way to the Elbe River in Germany during their advance on the German capital of Berlin in 1945. Yes, several million Polish and German women were brutally gang raped by Soviet soldiers. The Soviets then occupied and installed puppet governments all through eastern Europe enslaving over 80 million people for the next half century.

The United States on the other hand liberated the countries it went through and gave them democracy as opposed to communist dictatorship. In stark contrast to the Soviet military behavior, the US hung or shot by firing squad its own soldiers who were found guilty of rape. An interesting contrast between the Soviet Atheist Regime, the most power and influence any atheist has ever had in history, and the United States which has freedom of religion.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by bethere

An interesting contrast between the Soviet Atheist Regime, the most power and influence any atheist has ever had in history, and the United States which has freedom of religion.

What does atheism have to do with anything? If you're going to condemn the Russians for acting in the name of atheism (which no one has ever done), are you going to condemn Hitler for acting in the name of Christianity?

Also, do you not find it convenient that our enemies (and our ally that would soon become our enemy) seem to be completely overrun with evil rapists and murderers while we were all squeaky clean? History is truly written by the victors. Things are never so black and white and when they are presented as such, you should start to question them

The idea that Japan was planning to use a nuclear bomb is a sketchy one at best


(and it's "hanged". I'm sorry, it's just a pet peeve of mine. Sorry to be that guy)

[bethere]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

What does atheism have to do with anything? If you're going to condemn the Russians for acting in the name of atheism (which no one has ever done), are you going to condemn Hitler for acting in the name of Christianity?

)

It was just something I noticed that I found interesting. The difference in behavior of the Russian and American military forces in their march across Europe. The difference in what they did in their occupation zones. The way they treated people.

Also, do you not find it convenient that our enemies (and our ally that would soon become our enemy) seem to be completely overrun with evil rapists and murderers while we were all squeaky clean? History is truly written by the victors. Things are never so black and white and when they are presented as such, you should start to question them

I know a hallmark of liberalism is to suggest moral equivalency everywhere, but in this case it doesn't fly, not by a mile. The above are hard facts. The United States didn't cook 6 million people to death in concentration camps. The Germans did. Just ask the Poles about what the Russians did to them in their sweep across the country towards Germany. Hell, look at what Russia did in 1939 to Poland with Germany. Look at what the Russians did to Polish prisoners of war. A recent President of Poland as well as several other top officials recently died in a plane crash on the way to visit a memorial to thousands of Polish prisoners massacred by the Russians during the War.

The above are all facts, and if it looks black and white then so be it, because that is what the facts show.

The idea that Japan was planning to use a nuclear bomb is a sketchy one at best

Japan was trying to develop an atomic bomb of its own, but were behind the United States in the development process. Their work on developing a bomb was destroyed during the fire bombing of Japanese cities.

[financeguy]

Originally Posted by bethere

The idea that the Allies specifically targeted women, children, and civilian men is crazy. If this was some sort of goal, it would have continued as the US military entered both Germany and Japan. The fact of the matter is that targeting transportation networks and factories back then usually required nearly 1 thousand bombing sorties before the target was even hit. US firebombing in Japan eventually destroyed area's where Japan was attempting to build its own Atomic Bomb to use against US forces, or even the United States with some unusual delivery methods. Without the firebombing of Japan, you would of had US forces trying to invade the island in 1946 and possibly being exposed to the Japanese use of their own Atom Bomb or at least a dirty bomb.

Allied strategic bombing overall ended the war earlier and saved far more lives than it took. To let what happen on Okinawa happen all over the Japan would have ended Japan forever. Thats what you would have seen with an invasion of the islands. In Germany, without strategic bombing, every city in Germany would have been defended to the degree that Berlin was leading to millions more deaths and casualties.

Oh, and on the question of moral superiority, lets not forget who did what.

Germany, Japan and Italy were the aggressors. Both launched regional wars of aggression that eventually resulted in the deaths of over 60 million people. Germany targeted and exterminated over 6 million people simply because of their Religion. The Japanese military raped most of the women in China and the Pacific Islands that they occuipied, as well as engaging in extermination of any town that resisted their occupation. How about the treatment of US and allied prisoners of War by the Japanese.

Unfortunately, one of the Allies was not much better in its treatment of prisoners and innocent civilians. The Russian military raped nearly every women in Poland west of the vistula river going all the way to the Elbe River in Germany during their advance on the German capital of Berlin in 1945. Yes, several million Polish and German women were brutally gang raped by Soviet soldiers. The Soviets then occupied and installed puppet governments all through eastern Europe enslaving over 80 million people for the next half century.

The United States on the other hand liberated the countries it went through and gave them democracy as opposed to communist dictatorship. In stark contrast to the Soviet military behavior, the US hung or shot by firing squad its own soldiers who were found guilty of rape. An interesting contrast between the Soviet Atheist Regime, the most power and influence any atheist has ever had in history, and the United States which has freedom of religion.

This isn't debate or argument, it's just propaganda. Even the elements of it that are true, are, I'm afraid, deployed purely for propagandising purposes, because they fit your narrative, much as there may have been factually true statements inserted within the propagandist pronouncements of the Soviets you detest - but their overall narrative could not be trusted.

I really don't want to get into addressing each of your specific points, as I know it would end up like wrestling a pig, but the US soliders unfortunately raped many women in Vietnam (according to your own filmmakers, at least), so adopting the "we're the good guys 'cos we don't commit rapes even in war, they're the bad guys 'cos they do, and what's more, they're filthy atheists and God hates them" is not a good argument for you to adopt.

STING2's latest alter, I take it?

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by bethere

It was just something I noticed that I found interesting. The difference in behavior of the Russian and American military forces in their march across Europe. The difference in what they did in their occupation zones. The way they treated people.

Fair enough then. We can blame Christianity for what Hitler did. It's just something I noticed.
(and do you really think Christianity doesn't have any blood on its hands? Its hands might be the bloodiest)

I know a hallmark of liberalism is to suggest moral equivalency everywhere, but in this case it doesn't fly, not by a mile. The above are hard facts. The United States didn't cook 6 million people to death in concentration camps. The Germans did. Just ask the Poles about what the Russians did to them in their sweep across the country towards Germany. Hell, look at what Russia did in 1939 to Poland with Germany. Look at what the Russians did to Polish prisoners of war. A recent President of Poland as well as several other top officials recently died in a plane crash on the way to visit a memorial to thousands of Polish prisoners massacred by the Russians during the War.
The above are all facts, and if it looks black and white then so be it, because that is what the facts show.

I'm not a liberal, so your blanketing opening statement isn't going to fly either. If you don't think there's an bias with the way the facts are presented, then there is no discussing it with you. You don't find it strange that the more access the media had in subsequent wars, the less innocent the actions of the troops became?

You can start with a simple wiki search and go from there
Allied war crimes during World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I know it's heart warming to think the allies were all heroic and law abiding (many were), but it's not reality

Japan was trying to develop an atomic bomb of its own, but were behind the United States in the development process. Their work on developing a bomb was destroyed during the fire bombing of Japanese cities.

Again, trying to develop an atomic bomb and being anywhere close to possessing one are completely different. The idea that the US dropped theirs just in time to save themselves from the same fate is a huge stretch and revisionist history

[Vincent Vega]

I really have no idea what's more ridiculous. The insinuation that Germans are still Nazis, or the statement that all bad comes from the Atheists.
I'm both. I'm afraid I may not sit next to anyone on a plane anymore.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by Vincent Vega

I really have no idea what's more ridiculous. The insinuation that Germans are still Nazis, or the statement that all bad comes from the Atheists.
I'm both. I'm afraid I may not sit next to anyone on a plane anymore.

I'll add to this that the idea that all German soldiers were Jew hating murderers is ridiculous too. The majority were just young men fighting for their country just like every other soldier in the war was

[financeguy]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

If you don't think there's an bias with the way the facts are presented, then there is no discussing it with you.

I know it's heart warming to think the allies were all heroic and law abiding (many were), but it's not reality
history

That, plus the kind of black and white thinking that Sting2/Bethere requires us to bring to bear against the great enemy of "moral equivalency", is, I think, incredibly dangerous, inherently. Actually, taken to extremes, it ultimately trends to the Nazism/Sovietism that Bethere/Sting2 claims to detest.

Maybe the US soldiers who raped Vietnamese women were victims of this black-and-white thinking. Or maybe they were secretly atheistic Nazis or Commies, or, almost as bad, deviant liberals and backsliding moral equivalators.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by financeguy

Maybe the US soldiers who raped Vietnamese women were victims of this black-and-white thinking. Or maybe they were secretly atheistic Nazis or Commies, or, almost as bad, deviant liberals and backsliding moral equivalators.

Or maybe they just weren't true Scotsmen American Christians

[Aygo]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

I'd like you to somehow relate all that back to what we were actually talking about. Feel free to start wherever you'd like

You were questioning the morality or absense of it from both parts. I replied saying that one part has unquestionably moral or higher moral than the other. The rethoric-questions I put are the answer and the justification.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by Aygo

You were questioning the morality or absense of it from both parts. I replied saying that one part has unquestionably moral or higher moral than the other. The rethoric-questions I put are the answer and the justification.

Your rhetorical questions made no sense in relation to what we were talking about.

[PhilsFan]

As someone who has only been reading so far, Aygo, you appeared to be trying to make points about present day Europe in a discussion about World War II, which is sort of weird.

[Aygo]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

As someone who has only been reading so far, Aygo, you appeared to be trying to make points about present day Europe in a discussion about World War II, which is sort of weird.

Do you know why?
Because today's european generations are not very different from european generations of the early XX century.
We may have internet, iPhones, education, health systems, and many other things, but... Expectations, but most of all, the national (and "intranational") identities are the exact same.
Today's events in Europe are the perfect mirror or what Europe is, of Europe's essence. If there's one thing that the present crisis is proving is that it all has emerged again, it was just hidden all this time under the surface. Nothing has really changed in fact. We've only made a break.
So, to me, talking about today's Europe is talking about Europe during the WWI or the WWII.

[Aygo]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Your rhetorical questions made no sense in relation to what we were talking about.

Ok. So, instead of answering you, I will put you another question that, for me gives the answer it self.

Why did the UK and France declare war to Germany in September 1939?

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by Aygo

Ok. So, instead of answering you, I will put you another question that, for me gives the answer it self.

Why did the UK and France declare war to Germany in September 1939?

Why did Germany invade Poland?