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Old 09-23-2013, 08:57 PM   #41
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Exactly.

NBC came in here telling is that through hard work, post WW2 his parents flourished. That's the point - we are ostensibly far worse off today and we don't have the same opportunities. Hell you don't have to go that far in time - the house my parents live in was maybe $200K 20 years ago. Today it's $750-800K. In the Toronto suburbs and wages have not gone up significantly at all. If you think it is realistic for today's young people to work as hard as your parents did and enjoy the same standard of living as your parents did, you're really out to pasture.

How many people of your generation bought their first family starter home at $1M? Because that's what my generation is looking at in a number of urban areas. And no, you aren't getting a mansion for that money either, I can assure you.
Everyone's answer is put the dream on credit - which only artificially inflates price - which makes the real dream that much more unobtainable for those folks that really do play by the old fashioned rules.

If you look any historical chart, housing and education will eventually fall like a ton of bricks. They are still way above the baseline when compared to average income. The 2006-2010 housing crash was not allowed to complete the cycle - hopefully the next one will.
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Old 09-23-2013, 10:09 PM   #42
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I am still bewildered by the average Right Winger's love of Big Business/Pseudo Capitalism. How the 1 percent got average struggling Americans to fight to keep them rich is nothing short of astonishing. I am so conservative in my thoughts and actions - but I can't imagine how fighting to keep other people rich (or - making them even richer) is a "conservative" cause.
It's not a love of Big Business but a love of free enterprise. I don't defend every practice of Walmart or any large corporation but who do you trust to place a value on labor; markets or temporary politicians on a city council?

There many types of pseudo capitalism AEON. I'm not a corporatist either but I fear state-capitalism even more.
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Old 09-23-2013, 10:11 PM   #43
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The stereotypical middle class tea party type who looks down at the "freeloading" 47% simply fails to realize that to the top 5%, he ain't much better or more successful. They still wouldn't want their kids to go to schools with his. In fact, they'll likely have few opportunities in life to ever mix.
All the more reason to stop saddling future generations with mountains of debt.
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Old 09-24-2013, 01:14 AM   #44
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It's not a love of Big Business but a love of free enterprise. I don't defend every practice of Walmart or any large corporation but who do you trust to place a value on labor; markets or temporary politicians on a city council?
I guess the older I get, I see more importance in a human life and the ability to feed one's family above something as arbitrary as "markets."

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There many types of pseudo capitalism AEON. I'm not a corporatist either but I fear state-capitalism even more.
It seems they've now blended quite nicely - and the funny part is, they got the good ol fashioned hard working Americans to do the fighting for them all the way to their own economic freedom grave.

Don't get me wrong, the Liberals are just as bad...for other reasons...

It's all such a damned mess, but I remain hopeful. I hold on to the idea that technology will eventually trump the ability of certain companies and institutions to manipulate market prices (if you can "print" aluminium then it will undermine a company like Goldman Sachs that is renting trucks to haul around aluminum to keep the price artificially high).
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:57 AM   #45
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It's amazing how people take "the markets" and treat it like another invisible sky friend who does no wrong and is always right and if we'd just get out of the way it would fix everything.
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:48 AM   #46
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All the more reason to stop saddling future generations with mountains of debt.
Sure. Let's increase revenues to decrease debt.
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Old 09-24-2013, 11:20 AM   #47
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It's amazing how people take "the markets" and treat it like another invisible sky friend who does no wrong and is always right and if we'd just get out of the way it would fix everything.
Very true. As we all know - nothing can go wrong with mob rule.
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Old 09-24-2013, 05:58 PM   #48
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Sure. Let's increase revenues to decrease debt.
Yes, because we all work for the government and anything, in their benevolence, they allow us to keep we should give thanks for.

Anyway, we have a spending problem, not a revenue problem.

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Old 09-24-2013, 06:26 PM   #49
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Haven't we all learned from posters past that what matters is % of GDP?

We have a revenue problem. Let's revisit the 1990s.
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Old 09-24-2013, 08:47 PM   #50
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Haven't we all learned from posters past that what matters is % of GDP?
Isn't it about 75%? And from what I understand, that isn't exactly optimal.
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:25 PM   #51
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Isn't it about 75%? And from what I understand, that isn't exactly optimal.

No one is saying the debt isnt an issue. (The GOP certainly didn't care about debt in the 1980s or in the 2000s). I'm just saying a simplistic chart like the one above isn't terribly helpful. We should have spent more earlier. We'd be in better shape than we are now.
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:49 PM   #52
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Saying we don't have a revenue problem is laughable.
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:57 PM   #53
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I guess the older I get, I see more importance in a human life and the ability to feed one's family above something as arbitrary as "markets."
Markets aren't "arbitrary," quite the contrary. Market forces are the result of an untold number of voluntary, individual decisions. The opposite of centralized top-down decision making.
Now arbitrary is the $12.50/hr rate the D.C. City council pulled out of thin air. Why not $13.50? Hell, it's not their money, why not $18.00/hr?
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:00 PM   #54
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Haven't we all learned from posters past that what matters is % of GDP?

We have a revenue problem. Let's revisit the 1990s.
With 90's levels of spending?
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:43 PM   #55
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...an untold number of voluntary, individual decisions.
EXACTLY!

arbitrary: based on random choice or personal whim
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:45 PM   #56
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why not $18.00/hr?
Why not $40.00/hr so people can actually live? It's not your money either. It's all one big shadow play so why are you fighting over which puppets get time in front of the fire to create the illusion?
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Old 09-25-2013, 12:44 AM   #57
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Better yet - how about capping income and holdings? Or do you believe those that are super wealthy have some super human abilities that give them the "right" to manipulate our economic system to move wealth away from other hard working people into their own accounts? Are we really to believe these people are that much smarter and worked that much harder than everyone else? And unless you are one of these super mutants - why in the world are you fighting for them?
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Old 09-25-2013, 02:10 AM   #58
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It all comes down to a terrible case of cross-purposes over the nature of freedom itself, I suspect.

Dating back to the first rise of 18th century liberalism and classical economy. Maybe further.
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Old 09-25-2013, 08:09 AM   #59
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Meh, never mind.
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Old 09-25-2013, 08:09 AM   #60
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Markets aren't "arbitrary," quite the contrary. Market forces are the result of an untold number of voluntary, individual decisions.
Even supply-side economists are mumbling under their breathe, "shut up INDY, you're not helping us."
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