US Politics XXXIV: Biden Against the Manchine (Live at the Sinema)

[Irvine511]

In fairness, they believe in tax cuts for the wealthy and making it hard for black peoples to vote in swing states.

The other problem with Not Trump politicians is they know they have to sound like Trump and when they try to sound like Trump they sound like Ted Cruz.

And no one likes Ted Cruz.

[BEAL]

https://twitter.com/4lisaguerrero/st...735009792?s=21

Or this guy

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Originally Posted by BEAL

Trump is actually a moderate when the topic is vaccines. He created the monster and now even he can’t tame it.

NYTimes article saying the RNC is suggesting no Presidential Debates. I’m actually ok with it because they’re not worth it anymore. Especially with Trump.

But there’s nothing to debate when your party doesn’t have a platform

Trump is a "out saw on Facebook that they might cause autism" on vaccines.

The only reason why he's making this push now is because he's pissed he didn't get credit for the best thing he actually accomplished.

It has nothing to do with saving lives. It's 100% ego.

[BEAL]

Correct. The man has no empathy. He will do and say whatever to promote or help himself.

Has anyone ever seen him laugh ?

Listening to some of the rally sound bites he’s even more incoherent than ever which is saying something. Probably a big reason why RNC wants zero debates

[Headache in a Suitcase]

let's just stop talking about trump other than his ongoing criminal liability.

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase

let's just stop talking about trump other than his ongoing criminal liability.

❤️

[2861U2]

I'm seeing a lot of "the GOP has no platform" and "the GOP is a bunch of crazies" from this increasingly small echo chamber.
So, can I ask what the Democrats' platform is? Because I see it as the following five items:

1) If you disagree with any of my views, you are a white supremacist. Even if you are voting for a black female Republican to be Lieutenant Governor. Hell, even if you're black yourself. Vote Democrat, or else you hate black people.
2) What happened on January 6th was worse than 9/11, Pearl Harbor, and the Civil War combined.
3) We believe in science and the importance of wearing masks and social distancing. Unless we're going to a Nancy Pelosi fundraiser- then we don't need science. Or when we're attending the Met Gala. Or a BLM rally. The virus knows to stay away from those places, because they're important events. But your six-year-old needs to wear a mask all day at school and show vaccine proof to buy a Happy Meal.
4) Anything that cancel culture or the woke mob wants- you've got it. We're scared of you and will let you dictate all norms, actions and laws going forward.
#5) Republicans don't trust or accept election results, unlike us Democrats (Al Gore notwithstanding. Or Hillary Clinton. Or Stacey Abrams....)

And that's not me saying that. That's not Fox News saying that. That is the Democratic Party saying that. Look at the talking points, the ads, the content of the speeches- this is coming from leadership. So if the platform is more than those five things, I don't see it. It's not coming through in the messaging or from the messengers. Not that I have a problem with that. Seriously- please, please, please keep running on January 6th and nonexistent racism and "science" that you don't follow yourself but force others to. Please. And then wonder why you'll get profoundly rejected this November.

And yet, Joe Biden is the best you can do. Tell me that you at least have the awareness that if the 2024 nominee is Biden or Harris, you lose. At least be that intellectually honest. Or, too, if it's Hillary, for that matter (sad and scary that her name is starting to be thrown around, isn't it?). Certainly add Bernie and Warren to that list, and, of course, AOC. Honestly- who is your bench? Michelle Obama?

I live in Arizona. One of my Senators is Kyrsten Sinema. While I did not originally vote for her, I've been fairly impressed by her. She's one of the only Democrats (along with Tulsi Gabbard) who I would ever for a millisecond actually consider voting for. Prior to a couple months ago, I would have thought she'd be an attractive and formidable VP or POTUS nominee in the near future, and checks several boxes- only 45, from a swing state, LGBT+ member, etc. And yet, your side has completely destroyed her. And for what? There's no room in this extremist party for her anymore. Same with Gabbard. The GOP is constantly attacked for saying the radicals own the party. Look in the fucking mirror.

Do you ever seriously examine why the Democratic Party is so terrible right now? Look at the abysmal numbers. Biden's approval. Lord knows Harris's (sorry- that's just racism, right?). The number of people fleeing the party and fleeing blue states- see Gallup's recent look at this. This is historically, near unprecedentedly bad. Do you notice or care? Is there any real reflection or analysis going on?

I swear, if the party were to ask itself why it's numbers are so bad right now, and were given these two options:
A) I guess independents are turning more racist and Nazi-like
B) There might perhaps be an issue with Biden, Harris, Pelosi, and our current areas of focus on the policy front. Let's pivot and find some new voices and messages.
....they'd without question think it must be option A.

We were supposed to see some self-reflection after the beating in 2010. And 2016. And Virginia, etc a couple months ago. It's never, ever happened. The party has only doubled and tripled and quadrupled-down on crazy. And then they'll act shocked when DeSantis wins 35 states in a few years. But please- continue devoting your time to calling Trump a "slob" and trying to come up with a clever line of attack on DeSantis (or did you officially decide on DeathSantis?).

Again- what is your platform? What is a winning issue for you? Where have you pivoted? How are you attracting swing voters? What is your future?

And if you disagree with anything I just said, you are clearly a white supremacist.

[DaveC]

tl;dr: "behold my vast field of strawmen."

[Irvine511]

It’s as if a massive COVID spending bill, Build Back Better, and Voting Rights don’t exist in this world this person lives in.

Biden has a big, aggressive agenda that isn’t passing in part because of two Senators.

What does one do with someone who thinks that the Democrats have no agenda when in fact they have a massive agenda that’s been criticized for being overly ambitious and for Biden thinking he’s FDR?

It boggles the mind.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by 2861U2

I'm seeing a lot of "the GOP has no platform" and "the GOP is a bunch of crazies" from this increasingly small echo chamber.
So, can I ask what the Democrats' platform is? Because I see it as the following five items:

1) If you disagree with any of my views, you are a white supremacist. Even if you are voting for a black female Republican to be Lieutenant Governor. Hell, even if you're black yourself. Vote Democrat, or else you hate black people.
2) What happened on January 6th was worse than 9/11, Pearl Harbor, and the Civil War combined.
3) We believe in science and the importance of wearing masks and social distancing. Unless we're going to a Nancy Pelosi fundraiser- then we don't need science. Or when we're attending the Met Gala. Or a BLM rally. The virus knows to stay away from those places, because they're important events. But your six-year-old needs to wear a mask all day at school and show vaccine proof to buy a Happy Meal.
4) Anything that cancel culture or the woke mob wants- you've got it. We're scared of you and will let you dictate all norms, actions and laws going forward.
#5) Republicans don't trust or accept election results, unlike us Democrats (Al Gore notwithstanding. Or Hillary Clinton. Or Stacey Abrams....)

And that's not me saying that. That's not Fox News saying that. That is the Democratic Party saying that. Look at the talking points, the ads, the content of the speeches- this is coming from leadership. So if the platform is more than those five things, I don't see it. It's not coming through in the messaging or from the messengers. Not that I have a problem with that. Seriously- please, please, please keep running on January 6th and nonexistent racism and "science" that you don't follow yourself but force others to. Please. And then wonder why you'll get profoundly rejected this November.

And yet, Joe Biden is the best you can do. Tell me that you at least have the awareness that if the 2024 nominee is Biden or Harris, you lose. At least be that intellectually honest. Or, too, if it's Hillary, for that matter (sad and scary that her name is starting to be thrown around, isn't it?). Certainly add Bernie and Warren to that list, and, of course, AOC. Honestly- who is your bench? Michelle Obama?

I live in Arizona. One of my Senators is Kyrsten Sinema. While I did not originally vote for her, I've been fairly impressed by her. She's one of the only Democrats (along with Tulsi Gabbard) who I would ever for a millisecond actually consider voting for. Prior to a couple months ago, I would have thought she'd be an attractive and formidable VP or POTUS nominee in the near future, and checks several boxes- only 45, from a swing state, LGBT+ member, etc. And yet, your side has completely destroyed her. And for what? There's no room in this extremist party for her anymore. Same with Gabbard. The GOP is constantly attacked for saying the radicals own the party. Look in the fucking mirror.

Do you ever seriously examine why the Democratic Party is so terrible right now? Look at the abysmal numbers. Biden's approval. Lord knows Harris's (sorry- that's just racism, right?). The number of people fleeing the party and fleeing blue states- see Gallup's recent look at this. This is historically, near unprecedentedly bad. Do you notice or care? Is there any real reflection or analysis going on?

I swear, if the party were to ask itself why it's numbers are so bad right now, and were given these two options:
A) I guess independents are turning more racist and Nazi-like
B) There might perhaps be an issue with Biden, Harris, Pelosi, and our current areas of focus on the policy front. Let's pivot and find some new voices and messages.
....they'd without question think it must be option A.

We were supposed to see some self-reflection after the beating in 2010. And 2016. And Virginia, etc a couple months ago. It's never, ever happened. The party has only doubled and tripled and quadrupled-down on crazy. And then they'll act shocked when DeSantis wins 35 states in a few years. But please- continue devoting your time to calling Trump a "slob" and trying to come up with a clever line of attack on DeSantis (or did you officially decide on DeathSantis?).

Again- what is your platform? What is a winning issue for you? Where have you pivoted? How are you attracting swing voters? What is your future?

And if you disagree with anything I just said, you are clearly a white supremacist.

You aren’t a serious person who understands how government works.

[Jerry Dunk]

2816U2 is obviously criticizing this from a place of absurdity, but to say the Democrats have a platform because of the bills they didn't pass is a stretch. Especially considering how much of the bills they were willing to dump just to appear to do something.

The Democrats' only true platform is the one Paul Begala laid out: "our leaders are fine, it's the followers that are letting us down." That's the one consistent belief among the Dems, that the voters have let them down. I'm sure THIS time, condescending to voters is going to get the job done.

[Bluer White]

Originally Posted by DaveC

tl;dr: "behold my vast field of strawmen."

I'd prolly skip a long post about Canadian politics too.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Bluer White

I'd prolly skip a long post about Canadian politics too.

But would you read a disingenuous eye rolling concern troll made up of some copypasta from right wing Twitter?

To think that Sinema someone to be admired because her sole purpose is to stop the Dem agenda that supposedly doesn’t exist?

[LemonMelon]

I don't feel the need to get rustled by criticisms levied at establishment Democrats. I vote for them out of desperate necessity stemming from a broken binary electoral system that doesn't represent my needs. That is, I am more than the party I am registered under because of course I am. Is anyone completely happy with either party? Really?

So I don't give a shit what Republicans have to say about Biden or Harris because, frankly, they weren't my first choice and they couldn't pass their legislation if they wanted to. It's disappointing but it is what it is. Unless major risks were taken in stacking courts and annilating the filibuster, nothing was going to pass and Democrats would experience a short-lived "majority." We've all been saying this for months. There's no new information here.

With that being said, of course Democrats want more than what's on 42069U2's list. Of course nobody is actually saying that 1/6 was worse than the Civil War, 9/11 and Pearl Harbor combined. #3 on his list isn't really a policy per se, he's just bitching because not everyone is always wearing masks on their faces when they are requesting others do the same for valid reasons. Nobody likes a hypocrite, but that's not really a policy critique. His post has some reasonable observations but it isn't really saying anything that anyone on this board can do something about. Yeah, establishment Dems are a disappointment. Making a list of reasons why they suck doesn't make the GOP any more principled, focused and worthwhile.

[Bluer White]

2861, Jerry Dunk, and LemonMelon

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Originally Posted by 2861U2

I'm seeing a lot of "the GOP has no platform" and "the GOP is a bunch of crazies" from this increasingly small echo chamber.
So, can I ask what the Democrats' platform is? Because I see it as the following five items:

the idea that this place is an echo chamber just because the majority of us think the republican party has gone off the deep end is a crock. it's a mix of disenfranchised republicans, moderate establishment types, liberal democrats, and true leftists. we hardly ever agree on anything, actually - other than that Trumpism is a threat to democracy, and by association so then is the republican party, as they have refused to denounce Trumpism and have instead embraced it.

if anything the shrinking of the republican party has made it harder for everyone else to actually agree on anything - as the democratic party now consists of those who used to moderate republicans, who very clearly will not agree with the ideals of those to the far left of the party.

the majority of us here, and, frankly, everywhere didn't vote for Joe Biden and this administration because were just so endeared by a 75 year old piece of stale wheat bread.

1) If you disagree with any of my views, you are a white supremacist. Even if you are voting for a black female Republican to be Lieutenant Governor. Hell, even if you're black yourself. Vote Democrat, or else you hate black people.

sure, there's some of this from people left of crazy town. but aren't you sitting here lumping every person who isn't a republican into one big lump?

the former president and the person who is still the leader of the party trafficked in this shit. the most watched host on the most watched news network traffics in far right, white nationalist ideas - his lead writer was literally caught posting on white nationalist message boards and was forced to resign. the political mentor to the former president travels in circles with militias, and has used them as his own personal security team. multiple members of the house of representatives have close ties to white nationalist militias. all of these things are facts. they are not up for debate.

so i think the better question is this - why has this fringe element been given a platform in the trumpist republican party? why hasn't their been more push back? why is tucker carlson the most watched show on Fox? where's the pushback?

why won't the republican party reject this? why have they embraced the people who have embraced white nationalism?

because that's the issue. do i think every republican is a racist and white nationalist? no. but you're not rejecting it, either. that's a problem. will you at least admit that this is a major issue for your party?

2) What happened on January 6th was worse than 9/11, Pearl Harbor, and the Civil War combined.

i lived in new york during 9/11 and i lived a mile from the capitol on january 6. so first - fuck you for even making the comparison.

this is an absurd statement. the better question is why does the party that pretends to care so much about the constitution not want those responsible for january 6 to be held responsible? why don't you want those who spread clear and obvious lies in an attempt to stay in power held responsible? the president's political mentor used a group that has been recently charged with sedition as his personal security force - on january 6. why does this not bother you?

3) We believe in science and the importance of wearing masks and social distancing. Unless we're going to a Nancy Pelosi fundraiser- then we don't need science. Or when we're attending the Met Gala. Or a BLM rally. The virus knows to stay away from those places, because they're important events. But your six-year-old needs to wear a mask all day at school and show vaccine proof to buy a Happy Meal.

your examples (which, uh, yea, are fox news talking points) are, for the most part, absurd. it actually takes away from what is otherwise a valid criticism and point.

yes - covid has become overtly political. btw - it was the orange guy who made it so - alas.

we should be following the science, and should have been from day one. sometimes that means we should be overcautious until we can confirm and verify.

new york city dropped their mask mandate in favor of a vaccine mandate. that's why the met gala had no masks. but you knew this already.

but there are valid criticisms that there are those on the left who believe that we're still in spring 2020 with omicron, even though the science is telling us otherwise.

but what the science continues to tell us is that a) with the exception of those with big time preexisting medical conditions this thing doesn't impact children the same way it impacts adults even if they aren't vaccinated, and b) for adults? it's clear and obvious that you have very little to worry about with omicron if you are vaccinated and boosted. if you aren't vaccinated, you still have a lot to worry about - especially if you have preexisting conditions. the numbers spell this out and are undeniable.

4) Anything that cancel culture or the woke mob wants- you've got it. We're scared of you and will let you dictate all norms, actions and laws going forward.

an over exaggeration, but you're not completely wrong. there is a sense that anytime someone makes a mistake that their career should be over - which is wrong.

but not all mistakes are equal - and people on both sides of the spectrum like to hide behind the critique of cancel culture to cover for taking responsibility for their own actions.

#5) Republicans don't trust or accept election results, unlike us Democrats (Al Gore notwithstanding. Or Hillary Clinton. Or Stacey Abrams....)

another absurd argument. i'm not someone who thinks Bush stole the election in 2000. i think he won it fair and square. but gore obviously had a valid case, because it was taken up and actually ruled on by the courts.

the former president's court cases, on the other hand, were obvious lies, had no standing, and were laughed out of court.

to try and compare what the former president did to what any of the names you mentioned said or legal action they may have taken is a ridiculous statement. the former president's objections were not based on any solid legal argument. they were based on obvious and ridiculous lies.

And that's not me saying that. That's not Fox News saying that. That is the Democratic Party saying that.

it actually is fox news saying that.

Look at the talking points, the ads, the content of the speeches- this is coming from leadership. So if the platform is more than those five things, I don't see it. It's not coming through in the messaging or from the messengers. Not that I have a problem with that. Seriously- please, please, please keep running on January 6th and nonexistent racism and "science" that you don't follow yourself but force others to. Please. And then wonder why you'll get profoundly rejected this November.

there is actual legislation - some of it has already passed - which is more than what the previous president can say outside of tax cuts. you all couldn't even get the ACA repealed with full control of the senate and house, which was your main talking point for 8 fucking years.

you're not wrong that running on things like CRT and defunding the police do not move the needle for the general electorate -the overwhelming majority of whom are apolitical and don't really give a crap about either party.

that doesn't make racism - systemic and blatant - "non existent." it doesn't make police reform not a priority. it mostly means that the democrats are pretty bad at politics and messaging - a point which some of us in this "echo chamber" have been making for quite a while.

And yet, Joe Biden is the best you can do.

... yet he managed to beat your guy in a landslide

Tell me that you at least have the awareness that if the 2024 nominee is Biden or Harris, you lose. At least be that intellectually honest. Or, too, if it's Hillary, for that matter (sad and scary that her name is starting to be thrown around, isn't it?). Certainly add Bernie and Warren to that list, and, of course, AOC. Honestly- who is your bench? Michelle Obama?

it's an issue. there's no doubt about that.

btw nobody is throwing hillary's name around. the first mainstream pushing of her name is a potential 2024 nominee was from dick fucking morris on right wing radio, which the New York Post (owned by the Murdoch family btw) and the Wall Street Journal ran with. but remember - it's not Fox News saying it, it's the democrats!

I live in Arizona. One of my Senators is Kyrsten Sinema. While I did not originally vote for her, I've been fairly impressed by her. She's one of the only Democrats (along with Tulsi Gabbard) who I would ever for a millisecond actually consider voting for. Prior to a couple months ago, I would have thought she'd be an attractive and formidable VP or POTUS nominee in the near future, and checks several boxes- only 45, from a swing state, LGBT+ member, etc. And yet, your side has completely destroyed her. And for what? There's no room in this extremist party for her anymore. Same with Gabbard. The GOP is constantly attacked for saying the radicals own the party. Look in the fucking mirror.

i'm not even going to address tulsi as it's unnecessary. she's a hack and unserious.

regarding sinema, and by association manchin, you're not necessarily wrong. without them the democrats wouldn't control the senate and wouldn't have been able to pass anything on reconciliation, let alone any actual policy legislation.

i also agree that getting rid of the filibuster (or the other left wing pipe dream of court stacking) is something that will ultimately backfire. instead of complaining about two people who helped you own the senate, they should think more about their strategy to win more seats.

that said - it's absurd that the filibuster isn't a talking filibuster. it's absurd that the minority party - no matter which party - can not legislate without a super majority. this doesn't help anyone.

if you have a majority - even if it's a 50/50 split that you own the tie breaker on - you should be allowed to legislate - no matter the party.

manchin and sinema should at minimum support going back to the traditional filibuster rules. eliminating the filibuster altogether? i'm indifferent. i understand why, but it will backfire once the republicans inevitably take control again. same goes with court stacking.

Do you ever seriously examine why the Democratic Party is so terrible right now? Look at the abysmal numbers. Biden's approval. Lord knows Harris's (sorry- that's just racism, right?). The number of people fleeing the party and fleeing blue states- see Gallup's recent look at this. This is historically, near unprecedentedly bad. Do you notice or care? Is there any real reflection or analysis going on?

I swear, if the party were to ask itself why it's numbers are so bad right now, and were given these two options:
A) I guess independents are turning more racist and Nazi-like
B) There might perhaps be an issue with Biden, Harris, Pelosi, and our current areas of focus on the policy front. Let's pivot and find some new voices and messages.
....they'd without question think it must be option A.

the democrats have a major issue in 2022 unless they can pass some things. there is zero doubt about that. they need to figure out a way to get more things passed - whether it's by getting a talking filibuster and pushing the full bbb through or by breaking it into pieces.

but, you know, this is fairly commonplace. the former president lost the house in 2018, if you recall. and the former president's approval numbers for most of his first two year in office hovered a solid 8 points below Biden's own bad numbers. he was always in the mid 30s through his first two years in office. his high water marks were around where Biden's "abysmal" numbers are. he topped out at 45. biden's at 43. the majority of the former president's first two years he spent in the 30s.

and btw - the gallup report you mentioned? yea it doesn't really say what you think it says.

We were supposed to see some self-reflection after the beating in 2010. And 2016. And Virginia, etc a couple months ago. It's never, ever happened. The party has only doubled and tripled and quadrupled-down on crazy. And then they'll act shocked when DeSantis wins 35 states in a few years. But please- continue devoting your time to calling Trump a "slob" and trying to come up with a clever line of attack on DeSantis (or did you officially decide on DeathSantis?).

Again- what is your platform? What is a winning issue for you? Where have you pivoted? How are you attracting swing voters? What is your future?

And if you disagree with anything I just said, you are clearly a white supremacist.

i literally said that a desantis type candidate worries me more than the former president like 2 days ago.

and i will never stop calling trump an inept slovenly disgrace of a human being - because that's what he is. he's a lie. his entire being is a lie. that your party fell for the lie and embraced it will never not baffle me.

[Irvine511]

Is there anything worse than the “I was told …” style of posting about politics (“I was told Hillary would beat Trump, wah!” “I was told Biden would end the virus in 3 weeks, wah!”)?

No, you weren’t told anything an argument was presented, and you were never powerless to disagree, but you did just present it in the most convenient, disingenuous way possible.

Difficult to take anything seriously after those words.

[Headache in a Suitcase]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrNrLly1vvM

[phanan]

I'm just impressed that Headache had the patience to go through all that.

[Headache in a Suitcase]

i had a meeting canceled last minute and an hour to kill