U.S. and Allies Strike Libya

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gosh, not only did Obama kill Bin Laden (Bush couldn't) but he's ended Qaddafi (Reagan couldn't).

am glad he's in charge for that 3am phone call rather than one of those ineffectual Republicans.
 
Unlike a lot of other Arab dictatorships, which were based primarily on tribal allegiances and other forms of bribery, Gadhafi's was largely based on eliminating any and all forms of opposition, including any kinds of governmental organizations that could challenge him. Mubarak's exit showed that he was ultimately just a ripple in the nation's power base. Libya is a lot more worrisome in that respect, as the rebels will basically have to start from scratch in establishing a government there; Gadhafi ensured that he was Libya and that Libya was entirely dependent on him.

:| The point is that his regime had stakeholders in it, people who benefited from his rule and are therefore not necessarily predisposed to join hands sing kumbaya and enter a coalition government with the rebels. Whether they can be integrated is an awfully serious question for post-war Libya. You just blithely dismissed that with a "Gadhafi's ugly and stupid and smelly and no one likes him anyway". It's certainly easy to reach that conclusion living in the comforts of an advanced Western democracy, but as anitram pointed out, we have an awful record of recognizing local dynamics.
 
:| The point is that his regime had stakeholders in it, people who benefited from his rule and are therefore not necessarily predisposed to join hands sing kumbaya and enter a coalition government with the rebels. Whether they can be integrated is an awfully serious question for post-war Libya. You just blithely dismissed that with a "Gadhafi's ugly and stupid and smelly and no one likes him anyway". It's certainly easy to reach that conclusion living in the comforts of an advanced Western democracy, but as anitram pointed out, we have an awful record of recognizing local dynamics.

You needn't take my word for it, I guess. Here's a more detailed description of Gadhafi's power structure:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/08/22/libya.future.challenges/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

In 42 years as Libyan leader, Moammar Gadhafi purged Libyan society of any alternative voice or real discourse.

His Revolutionary Committees were ubiquitous, silencing dissent and enforcing the eccentric orthodoxy of the "Brother Leader's" teachings.

In such a warped society, there has been little space for the emergence of a professional, qualified middle-class, and none for trade unions, opposition groups or other symbols of civil society.

The only organized group not tied to the regime was the Muslim Brotherhood, driven underground by Gadhafi.

As in Iraq in 2003 or Syria now, there is no recognized opposition figure or group that transcends tribal, regional and sectarian rifts.

Gadhafi survived as long as he did, according to Libyan scholar Mansour O. El-Kikhia, by breaking up the power bases of Libya's largest and most influential tribes.

Lands and influence were redistributed to more "dependable" tribes such as the Warfalla, Qadhadfa and Megarha.
 
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When I read these kinds of arguments, I generally see the spectre of Iraq, yes?

No, actually.

There is a long and illustrious history of interventions, overt and covert, in the Middle East which have propped up petty dictatorships, or have been counter-constructive generally. Iran is a good example. Israel/Palestinian territories is another example of failed Western foreign policies, by more than one country, and in more than one way.

I am not any sort of an expert on the area and I readily admit that I don't understand the cultural implications, the tribal relationships, the deep historical animosities, the religious struggles and so on. Maybe you feel differently, but I have very little confidence that we have any idea what's going on there at all.
 
Right, so the next big question is, how do the Warfalla, Qadhafa and Megarha tribes feel about the National Transitional Council? It sounds like if benefits are distributed on a population basis they've got a lot to lose to those tribes Gadhafi tried to reduce the power of. And the opposite question of course: how do other tribes feel about the Warfalla, Gadhafa, and Megarha?

My biggest worry is if we've avoided a big cable-news-network moment like an attack on Benghazi while just setting up longer, low level conflict the West goes on to ignore.
 
There is a long and illustrious history of interventions, overt and covert, in the Middle East which have propped up petty dictatorships, or have been counter-constructive generally. Iran is a good example. Israel/Palestinian territories is another example of failed Western foreign policies, by more than one country, and in more than one way.

I generally see a difference between the Cold War-era "anti-communist" interventions, which Iran is a good example of, where we overthrew an elected government in favour of an autocrat. Even then, admittedly, situations like Iran or many of the nations of Latin America, for instance, are fraught with complicating circumstances--Mosaddegh, for instance, could easily have become like Chavez in Venezuela, so it's sheerly up to speculation as to whether Iran would have been a democratic paradise today or not had he remained in power. But, leaving aside such speculations entirely, we're dealing with local resistance movements that have needed a push in the right direction; that's a far cry from the Cold War by any respect, as I see it.

I am not any sort of an expert on the area and I readily admit that I don't understand the cultural implications, the tribal relationships, the deep historical animosities, the religious struggles and so on. Maybe you feel differently, but I have very little confidence that we have any idea what's going on there at all.

I see it as a once-in-a-generation moment that needs to be seized upon properly. Gadhafi isn't immortal, and if he'd stayed in power, he could easily have died suddenly and then we're either dealing with a new and unpredictable despot or having to deal with a new civil war then that has all the same questions and complications as now. The tribal struggles and animosities will have to be dealt with, sure, but that was a certainty regardless unless we're willing to accept from a moral standpoint a population being under the strong arm of a dictatorship forever. Presently, we have a population that is willing and ready for change, so why not deal with it now? I guess I hope for the best.
 
:up: Nato, and EU stepping up. US couldn't afford a third war.

Just as long as some good leader, and not another West approved dictator is in power next.
 
Careful, careful. No champagne popping or victory laps. Certainly not from the US.



you did see the release from aging lesbian power couple John McCain and Lindsey Graham?


“The end of the Qadaffi regime in Libya is a victory for the Libyan people and for the broader cause of freedom in the Middle East and throughout the world. This achievement was made possible first and foremost by the struggle and sacrifice of countless Libyans, whose courage and perseverance we applaud. We also commend our British, French, and other allies, as well as our Arab partners, especially Qatar and the UAE, for their leadership in this conflict. Americans can be proud of the role our country has played in helping to defeat Qaddafi, but we regret that this success was so long in coming due to the failure of the United States to employ the full weight of our airpower.


as ever, Obama did nothing. they even congratulated France, and not the president.
 
“The end of the Qadaffi regime in Libya is a victory for the Libyan people and for the broader cause of freedom in the Middle East and throughout the world.

Yes.

This achievement was made possible first and foremost by the struggle and sacrifice of countless Libyans, whose courage and perseverance we applaud.

Yes.

We also commend our British, French, and other allies, as well as our Arab partners, especially Qatar and the UAE, for their leadership in this conflict.

Oui.

Americans can be proud of the role our country has played in helping to defeat Qaddafi,

Yes.

but we regret that this success was so long in coming due to the failure of the United States to employ the full weight of our airpower

Dumbarse. Thank God you're not the US President.

They don't mention Obama, but it's not like they did mention Cameron or Sarkozy. The last sentence is loaded though. Obama was pretty much dragged into it, and the US did play a lesser role - or more to the point, played the part of playing a lesser role (if that makes sense). But the point would be that this was a good thing. Whether Obama played it that way or not (more likely he didn't want to get dragged too far in only because of domestic concerns) the fact that the US was seen to need to be 'forced' into it, and then while necessary and important and no doubt the major player behind the scenes, were publicly very much not-seen and not-heard, that was important. In general, NATO have played it out fairly well. It will be great if the back slapping is very restrained and only brief, and they shuffle off quietly, and continuing from now, the support for whatever comes next is very strong, but equally subtle.
 
I think she's amazing

s-SARA-SIDNER-large300.jpg


Sara Sidner's brave reporting from Muammar Gaddafi's compound in Libya is turning heads.

Sidner reported live from the compound while rebels shot rounds of celebratory fire behind her. The gunfire was so loud at some points that it interrupted the segment. At one point she reported getting hit by some of the shells.

But Sidner was intent on bringing viewers the story. She and her crew had to retreat to a wall for safety, but she continued reporting even after losing audio.

It's not the first time the CNN correspondent has won plaudits for her gutsy reporting. In 2008, she was reporting on the Mumbai terrorist attacks from the Taj Hotel when she was accosted by a group of angry locals. She could be heard yelling "Stop it!" in the dark before the network cut to previously recorded material. Larry King later said that "her reporting put her right in the line of fire."

Sidner has over been in television journalism for over fifteen years. She first joined CNN as the New Delhi correspondent in late 2007, according to TVNewser. Prior to that, she was a weekend anchor and reporter for KTVU-TV in Oakland, California. She got her start in reporting as a student at the University of Florida in Gainesville, where she got a degree in telecommunications.
 
The National (Abu Dhabi), Sep. 1
AN NAWFALIYAH, LIBYA -- At the centre of a circle of cheering rebel soldiers near Colonel Muammar Qaddafi’s hometown this week stood an improbable figure who gives new meaning to the term “road trip”. Chris Jeon, a 21-year-old university student from Los Angeles, California,shrugging cooly, declared: “It is the end of my summer vacation, so I thought it would be cool to join the rebels. This is one of the only real revolutions” in the world.

In a daring, one might even say foolhardy, decision two weeks ago, Mr Jeon flew on a one-way ticket from Los Angeles to Cairo. He then travelled by train to Alexandria and by a series of buses to the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi. From there, he hitched a ride with rebels heading west towards the Libyan capital of Tripoli. After a 400km (248-mile) trek across the desolate North African landscape, he was now in the town of An Nawfaliyah, the toast of his comrades and a newly anointed road warrior.

“How do you fire this thing?” he asked on Wednesday as a bearded rebel handed him an AK-47. Locating the trigger of the assault rifle and switching off the safety, Mr Jeon fired it in the air in two short bursts. “I want to fight in Sirte!” he proclaimed, using hand gestures and pointing west towards Sirte. Whether the rebels understood him was far from clear. “It’s hard to communicate. I don’t really speak any Arabic,” he said. Nevertheless, the rebels have clearly taken to the mathematics student with no obvious political leanings who decided to slum it as an Arab Spring revolutionary before going back to his calculator for fall semester.

At first glance, Mr Jeon looked like someone who took a wrong turn on their way to the beach or the Santa Monica Pier. He wore a blue basketball jersey emblazoned with a script “Los Angeles” and the number 44. The rest of his outfit, including army camouflage trousers, a grey-and-black kaffiyeh on his head, clear safety glasses and a bullet hanging on a necklace, came courtesy of the rebels, he said. He had been sleeping in the homes of local families or in the open air with the insurgents.

...Although Mr Jeon did not arrive in Libya in time to catch the liberation of Tripoli, he has seen history unfold. He was aboard one of the first cars to roar into An Nawfiliyah last weekend, armed with his shotgun and a camera that no longer works because the battery is dead. “I have great footage,” he said. As with most students, money is a concern. He did not buy a round-trip airplane ticket, he explained: “If I get captured or something, I don’t want to waste another US$800 [Dh2,900].”

...Only a few friends back in Los Angeles knew his true plans, he admitted. His family? Well, they thought he was going on a different trip.

As he recalled that deliberately vague version of his itinerary, it dawned on Mr Jeon that he might be blowing his cover by speaking with a reporter on a far-flung stretch of desert more than 11,200 kms (7,000 miles) from home. “Whatever you do, don’t tell my parents,” he pleaded. “They don’t know I’m here.”
An Al-Jazeera reporter tweeted today that the rebels have apparently tired of Jeon (that didn't take long!) and sent him back to Benghazi. Just as well for him, as taking part in any attack on Sirte would've greatly increased his chances of doing something that could land him in serious legal trouble upon returning to the US.
 
THE ROVING EYE
Why Gaddafi got a red card
By Pepe Escobar

Surveying the Libyan wasteland out of a cozy room crammed with wafer-thin LCDs in a Pyongyang palace, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea's Dear Leader, Kim Jong-il, must have been stunned as he contemplated Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's predicament.

"What a fool," the Dear Leader predictably murmurs. No wonder. He knows how The Big G virtually signed his death sentence that day in 2003 when he accepted the suggestion of his irrepressibly nasty offspring - all infatuated with Europe - to dump his weapons of mass destruction program and place the future of the regime in the hands of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO).

Granted, Saif al-Islam, Mutassim, Khamis and the rest of the


Gaddafi clan still couldn't tell the difference between partying hard in St Tropez and getting bombed by Mirages and Rafales. But Big G, wherever he is, in Sirte, in the central desert or in a silent caravan to Algeria, must be cursing them to eternity.

He thought he was a NATO partner. Now NATO wants to blow his head off. What kind of partnership is this?

The Sunni monarchical dictator in Bahrain stays; no "humanitarian" bombs over Manama, no price on his head. The House of Saud club of dictators stays; no "humanitarian" bombs over Riyadh, Dubai or Doha - no price on their Western-loving gilded heads. Even the Syrian dictator is getting a break - so far.

So the question, asked by many an Asia Times Online reader, is inevitable: what was the crucial red line crossed by Gaddafi that got him a red card?

'Revolution' made in France
There are enough red lines crossed by The Big G - and enough red cards - to turn this whole computer screen blood red.

Let's start with the basics. The Frogs did it. It's always worth repeating; this is a French war. The Americans don't even call it a war; it's a "kinetic action" or something. The "rebel" Transitional National Council" (TNC) is a French invention.

And yes - this is above all neo-Napoleonic President Nicolas Sarkozy's war. He's the George Clooney character in the movie (poor Clooney). Everybody else, from David of Arabia Cameron to Nobel Peace Prize winner and multiple war developer Barack Obama, are supporting actors.

As already reported by Asia Times Online, this war started in October 2010 when Gaddafi's chief of protocol, Nuri Mesmari, defected to Paris, was approached by French intelligence and for all practical purposes a military coup d'etat was concocted, involving defectors in Cyrenaica.

Sarko had a bag full of motives to exact revenge on The Big G.

French banks had told him that Gaddafi was about to transfer his billions of euros to Chinese banks. Thus Gaddafi could not by any means become an example to other Arab nations or sovereign funds.

French corporations told Sarko that Gaddafi had decided not to buy Rafale fighters anymore, and not to hire the French to build a nuclear plant; he was more concerned in investing in social services.

Energy giant Total wanted a much bigger piece of the Libyan energy cake - which was being largely eaten, on the European side, by Italy's ENI, especially because Premier Silvio "bunga bunga" Berlusconi, a certified Big G fan, had clinched a complex deal with Gaddafi.

Thus the military coup was perfected in Paris until December; the first popular demonstrations in Cyrenaica in February - largely instigated by the plotters - were hijacked. The self-promoting philosopher Bernard Henri-Levy flew his white shirt over an open torso to Benghazi to meet the "rebels" and phone Sarkozy, virtually ordering him to recognize them in early March as legitimate (not that Sarko needed any encouragement).

The TNC was invented in Paris, but the United Nations also duly gobbled it up as the "legitimate" government of Libya - just as NATO did not have a UN mandate to go from a no-fly zone to indiscriminate "humanitarian" bombing, culminating with the current siege of Sirte.

The French and the British redacted what would become UN Resolution 1973. Washington merrily joined the party. The US State Department brokered a deal with the House of Saud through which the Saudis would guarantee an Arab League vote as a prelude for the UN resolution, and in exchange would be left alone to repress any pro-democracy protests in the Persian Gulf, as they did, savagely, in Bahrain.

The Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC - then transmuted into Gulf Counter-Revolution Club) also had tons of reasons to get rid of Gaddafi. The Saudis would love to accommodate a friendly emirate in northern Africa, especially by getting rid of the ultra-bad blood between Gaddafi and King Abdullah. The Emirates wanted a new place to invest and "develop". Qatar, very cozy with Sarko, wanted to make money - as in handling the new oil sales of the "legitimate" rebels.

United States Secretary of State Hillary Clinton may be very cozy with the House of Saud or the murderous al-Khalifas in Bahrain. But the State Department heavily blasted Gaddafi for his "increasingly nationalistic policies in the energy sector"; and also for "Libyanizing" the economy.

The Big G, a wily player, should have seen the writing on the wall. Since prime minister Mohammad Mossadegh was deposed essentially by the Central Intelligence Agency in Iran in 1953, the rule is that you don't antagonize globalized Big Oil. Not to mention the international financial/banking system - promoting subversive ideas such as turning your economy to the benefit of your local population.

If you're pro-your country you are automatically against those who rule - Western banks, mega-corporations, shady "investors" out to profit from whatever your country produces.

Gaddafi not only crossed all these red lines but he also tried to sneak out of the petrodollar; he tried to sell to Africa the idea of a unified currency, the gold dinar (most African countries supported it); he invested in a multibillion dollar project - the Great Man-Made River, a network of pipelines pumping fresh water from the desert to the Mediterranean coast - without genuflecting at the alter of the World Bank; he invested in social programs in poor, sub-Saharan countries; he financed the African Bank, thus allowing scores of nations to bypass, once again, the World Bank and especially the International Monetary Fund; he financed an African-wide telecom system that bypassed Western networks; he raised living standards in Libya. The list is endless.

Asia Times Online :: THE ROVING EYE: Why Gaddafi got a red card
 
In some way people will credit Bush since he started the other two wars and Obama piggybacked on him....

but it is a bit odd that a community organizer with no leadership experience can accomplish what he has (on the war on terror and other foreign affairs).
 
Yes, I'm sure many people will say that Bush was the starting pitcher who pitched 8 2/ 3 innings and gave up 2 hits. Obama was the reliever for one out, and he probably drank beer and ate fried chicken in the bullpen.

It's not going to amount to a hill of beans because the economy is in the dumper.

Good riddance Gadhafi
 
yet another foreign policy achievement for Obama.

my god, how inept and stupid does Bush look now?

Let's be honest now. The Arab Spring was not likely to happen without U.S. intervention in the middle east and that intervention got Gaddafi to give up weapons of mass destruction so it's not just solely an "Obama victory".

And this too:
It's not going to amount to a hill of beans because the economy is in the dumper.
 
It's also only a few weeks earlier than the timeframe it took to get Saddam in 2003. The real test is what happens afterwards and how that reflects on the president.

But good for him and his legacy. I don't think it has much impact on the election, though.
 
Let's be honest now. The Arab Spring was not likely to happen without U.S. intervention in the middle east

Much more likely that it was related to increase in food prices and levels of youth unemployment rather than America spreading freedom to Tunisia....
 
It's also only a few weeks earlier than the timeframe it took to get Saddam in 2003. The real test is what happens afterwards and how that reflects on the president.



this didn't require an American occupation and hasn't cost a single American life, was multilateral, and everyone is happy about it.

but agreed that what happens next is important.
 
Much more likely that it was related to increase in food prices and levels of youth unemployment rather than America spreading freedom to Tunisia....

that and the fact that there's a much different person occupying the White House.

the Cairo Address was no small thing.
 
the Cairo Address was no small thing.


But he used a teleprompter!!!!!!


I agree, I think it's a lot of things. Our leader isn't as hated around the world (just more divided at home for some reason) and we're scaling back our operations.

I wasn't quite sure what to think of Libya at first only because I figured we would have large ground troops moving in eventually. But I will say in regards to overthrowing a corrupt leader, this was about as efficient as I've seen (I'm 32 so maybe there others before my time).

Now we'll see what happens next. I am of the belief we should back off and let the people figure it out for themselves. If they put someone worse in place, so be it.
 
yet another foreign policy achievement for Obama.

my god, how inept and stupid does Bush look now?

This was no US solo action, so he can't take credit. And let's wait and see if Libya gets an improvement in leadership.

It would be a great victory if Obama could step up to the Cairo talk about Palestinian state though.
 
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