U.S. Ambassador Killed Over Anti-Islam Movie

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

But I disagree with him. I think such judgments about either president are trivial and cheap. I feel the same about that people that like to make much of Bush at the elementary school on 9/11. I've always thought criticizing Bush for not leaping out of his seat and DOING something was shallow with(apologies to present company; I recall one of us recently made that very criticism just a few days ago--can't remember who or what thread. I do disagree with it).

Well that's at least consistent. I'd tend to agree with you about the elementary school thing; we're talking minutes there. When days pass and no action is taken or statements made, then it becomes less forgivable

[Pearl]

Adding fuel to the fire...

"It happens that the news this week is Mohammed and this lousy film, so we are drawing cartoons about this subject," Charbonnier told CNN affiliate BFM-TV on Wednesday. "It's more turning in derision this grotesque film than to make fun of Mohammed."

He may have a point, but plenty of Muslims find any depiction of the prophet offensive. Given what is going on the world, what is he thinking?

[Jive Turkey]

Who gives a shit if plenty of muslims find any depiction of their prophet offensive? Why should I have to adhere to their ridiculous beliefs? I'm happy more people are drawing cartoons about it (The fact that is an actual sentence is insane). Fuck the idiots who feel they can strong arm people with violence at worst, or threats of violence at best. Draw away.
Just one more in a long list of examples of why religion is the bane of human existence

[Jive Turkey]

"What exactly was in the film? Who made it? What were their motives? Was Muhammad really depicted? Was that a Qur’an burning, or some other book? Questions of this kind are obscene. Here is where the line must be drawn and defended without apology: We are free to burn the Qur’an or any other book, and to criticize Muhammad or any other human being. Let no one forget it."

On the Freedom to Offend an Imaginary God : Sam Harris

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Who gives a shit if plenty of muslims find any depiction of their prophet offensive? Why should I have to adhere to their ridiculous beliefs? I'm happy more people are drawing cartoons about it (The fact that is an actual sentence is insane). Fuck the idiots who feel they can strong arm people with violence at worst, or threats of violence at best. Draw away.
Just one more in a long list of examples of why religion is the bane of human existence

No one is denying you this freedom. I support it. I like mocking all religions.

But just because people shouldn't riot doesn't mean that they won't, or that we don't know that they will riot, and that we should act surprised when they do.

[Pearl]

I do think Muslims are overreacting to this film and the cartoons. Killing someone and being violent contradicts their religion, which they claim is about peace. I also find it odd that they are against any depictions of Muhammad because they believe it will lead to idol worship. Does that mean a mere cartoon would make them bow down and worship it? To me, that's silly.

But like Irvine said, we shouldn't be surprised if they riot because it has happened too many times. If you want to criticize Islam, go ahead but be aware of the consequences.

[maycocksean]

What is the Muslim population in the countries where these people are protesting? In the millions? And what percentage of the population is out there protesting? This is not a Muslim problem, it's the small but vocal group that gets on TV.

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by Pearl

I also find it odd that they are against any depictions of Muhammad because they believe it will lead to idol worship. Does that mean a mere cartoon would make them bow down and worship it? To me, that's silly.

It's a bit more than that. My understanding is that they see god and Muhammad as beyond human comprehension; therefore, as the reasoning goes, any image of them is a misrepresentation, which I suppose is tantamount to blasphemy. I'm not defending that perspective; just trying to clarify it.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

It's a bit more than that. My understanding is that they see god and Muhammad as beyond human comprehension; therefore, as the reasoning goes, any image of them is a misrepresentation, which I suppose is tantamount to blasphemy. I'm not defending that perspective; just trying to clarify it.

I get that, but don't they also say Muhammad was human? I read somewhere that Muhammad insisted on being seen as a man and not a god-like person. I do know Muslims see Muhammad as the perfect human being though.

I can understand getting upset over a poor depiction of him, but why get upset over something meant to be humorous? I laugh at some memes of Jesus, but then again, I'm not uptight about my faith. And I'm also not a Muslim who might feel mistreated and misunderstood by the West.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

No one is denying you this freedom. I support it. I like mocking all religions.

But just because people shouldn't riot doesn't mean that they won't, or that we don't know that they will riot, and that we should act surprised when they do.

We shouldn't be surprised, but we also should allow violent and barbaric reactions to dictate our conduct.
I laughed at your third sentence

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

What is the Muslim population in the countries where these people are protesting? In the millions? And what percentage of the population is out there protesting? This is not a Muslim problem, it's the small but vocal group that gets on TV.

But when you've got high ranking officials in these countries saying "I don't support the violence, but stop drawing cartoons" it sends a mixed message. I think someone just needs to tell them to grow the fuck up and stop being such delicate flowers.
There's also a touch of the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy in that line of thinking, as I find there to be in most dismissals of religious ugliness. It's very much a Muslim protest

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by Pearl

I do think Muslims are overreacting to this film and the cartoons. Killing someone and being violent contradicts their religion, which they claim is about peace. I also find it odd that they are against any depictions of Muhammad because they believe it will lead to idol worship. Does that mean a mere cartoon would make them bow down and worship it? To me, that's silly.

But like Irvine said, we shouldn't be surprised if they riot because it has happened too many times. If you want to criticize Islam, go ahead but be aware of the consequences.

I pretty much agree with this.

And I agree with JT as well. Religion is like anything else, people are going to mock it and confront it. It may or may not be funny or true, and you certainly can disagree, but the people getting crazy over this need to seriously learn to chill out and lighten up.

[maycocksean]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

But when you've got high ranking officials in these countries saying "I don't support the violence, but stop drawing cartoons" it sends a mixed message. I think someone just needs to tell them to grow the fuck up and stop being such delicate flowers.
There's also a touch of the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy in that line of thinking, as I find there to be in most dismissals of religious ugliness. It's very much a Muslim protest

I disagree. I think most people no matter what they believe (or don't believe) want the same things. To be happy. To take care of their families. To be safe. There are 80 million people in Egypt, 72 million of which are Muslim. At the protest in Cairo where they took down the flag and burned it there were 2000 protesters. Even if the protests swelled to ten times this, it would still be something like less than 0.01% of the Muslim population in that country. The vast majority of the Muslims in Egypt are likely just like you and me, just trying to get through the day. They might all believe that making images of Mohammed is wrong, but in the same way that I believe that it's wrong to work on the Sabbath day and in the same way that you believe that all religion is crap. Yet none of us--you, me, the majority of Muslims are "enraged" about people who believe/act otherwise and ready to take to the streets in violence over it.

[Jive Turkey]

I agree, but I would argue that is because, to different degrees of course, the more reasonable people are less religious than the fundamentalists. The more you adhere to religion, the more likely your actions are unreasonable and unobjective. The violent protesters are following the word of their religion more closely than those who chose not to do anything. the further one slides to a secular lifestyle, the better

[BoMac]

I think their reaction has less to do with religion and more with their governments taking advantage of anti-American sentiment in the population.

Why aren't Muslims in the U.K., France, Canada, Australia etc. taking to the streets? The common denominator is they live in democratic countries, and those protesting live in places where there is no real concept of free speech or this idea that anybody can post a bloody video on Youtube. To them, a video like this can only be uploaded with U.S. government approval, thus demonstrating another example of American imperial behaviour in the region.

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by BoMac

I think their reaction has less to do with religion and more with their governments taking advantage of anti-American sentiment in the population.

Why aren't Muslims in the U.K., France, Canada, Australia etc. taking to the streets? The common denominator is they live in democratic countries, and those protesting live in places where there is no real concept of free speech or this idea that anybody can post a bloody video on Youtube. To them, a video like this can only be uploaded with U.S. government approval, thus demonstrating another example of American imperial behaviour in the region.

This is an important point. Religion is so thoroughly intertwined with politics and culture in the Middle East that we can't place the blame solely on Islam for reactionary, violent behavior. It may be the match that sets festering anger ablaze, but we have to take stock of other contributing factors as well. I would still argue that socio-economic issues are at the core of these protests.

[Jive Turkey]

That's a cop out for religion. There are protests in western countries. But obviously the kind of people willing to live with the white devil are also the kind that aren't going to cut our heads off at the drop of a hat.
There were no socio economic motives when theo van gogh was murdered in the streets. It's pure barbarism

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by BoMac

Why aren't Muslims in the U.K., France, Canada, Australia etc. taking to the streets?

Don't know about the other countries, but Australia had protests in Sydney, and they're still going on:

US warns citizens of more Sydney unrest as Muslim leaders back police actions | smh.com.au

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

That's a cop out for religion. There are protests in western countries. But obviously the kind of people willing to live with the white devil are also the kind that aren't going to cut our heads off at the drop of a hat.
There were no socio economic motives when theo van gogh was murdered in the streets. It's pure barbarism

But religion does not exist in a vacuum. It exists in tandem with the conditions of life and cannot, I think, be separated from them. These protests are erupting because Islam is for many of these people so deeply engrained in their identity that any slight to it is seen as an attack on their entire culture. So the issue of perceived intolerance of or disrespect to Islam becomes by association intolerance for the entire Arab way of life. This is not in any way a justification for the reactionary behavior we have seen; I'm simply saying that the culprit is never as simple as religion and religion alone.

[BVS]

I think blaming one piece of the puzzle is a little short sighted. It's the perfect storm: it's government, socio economic, and how the religion is used that is causing these issues.