U.S. Ambassador Killed Over Anti-Islam Movie

[INDY500]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/21/wo...says.html?_r=0

Libya Envoy’s Killing Was a Terrorist Attack, the White House Says
By HELENE COOPER
Published: September 20, 2012

WASHINGTON — The White House is now calling the assault on the American diplomatic facility in Benghazi, Libya, a “terrorist attack.”

“It is self-evident that what happened in Benghazi was a terrorist attack,” the White House press secretary, Jay Carney, told reporters aboard Air Force One on Thursday. “Our embassy was attacked violently and the result was four deaths of American officials.”

Until now, White House officials have not used that language in describing the assault. But with the election less than two months away and President Obama’s record on national security a campaign issue, they have come under criticism from Republican lawmakers who say the administration is playing down a threat for which it was unprepared.

It was not self-evident one week ago to the White House. Everyone else yes, the White House no. So what Hillary Clinton, Jay Carney, Susan Rice and other W.H. operatives were saying last week was wrong.

So using the same standard of truth applied to GWB and Iraq we can now say about this White House:

Ambassador dies; the White House lies.

[digitize]

Originally Posted by INDY500

You have it backwards. On a macro level, poverty is the symptom of dysfunctional values. Compare Israel and Palestine. China and Singapore. Haiti and the Dominican Republic. West and East Germany during the Cold War.

Which countries protected private property rights and economic freedom and which ones viewed the state's role as insuring "economic equality"?

What is the source of "dysfunctional values"?

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by INDY500

On a macro level, poverty is the symptom of dysfunctional values.

I am curious as to how you come to such a conclusion.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by digitize

What is the source of "dysfunctional values"?

Same source as functional values.

[digitize]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Same source as functional values.

Which is?

[Irvine511]

The answer INDY is looking for is, "Jesus."

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

The answer INDY is looking for is, "Jesus."

Jesus is always the answer but civil society is what dictates which government, economic, judicial and education systems form.

[bono_212]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Religion is a symptom of being afraid to die.

could you be more dismissive of religion in this thread? I mean, really, I appreciate the fact that you feel differently than me, but you're really piling on in this thread.

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by INDY500

civil society is what dictates which government, economic, judicial and education systems form.

Agreed, but just as there are religious people who are civil and hold good values, so too are there non-religious people who also behave and believe similarly.

[LemonMelon]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Religion is a symptom of being afraid to die.

Now step over to the Abominizer and I will shout slogans at you.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by bono_212

could you be more dismissive of religion in this thread? I mean, really, I appreciate the fact that you feel differently than me, but you're really piling on in this thread.

Fear of death is the reason religion exists. It's the essence of it. There's no other way around it

[bono_212]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Fear of death is the reason religion exists. It's the essence of it. There's no other way around it

If you say so. That's not my reasoning for it, but you aren't talking about me in particular. I don't want to start a useless debate in here.

This whole story just makes me sick. I just haven't really had anything to say.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by bono_212

If you say so. That's not my reasoning for it, but you aren't talking about me in particular. I don't want to start a useless debate in here.

This whole story just makes me sick. I just haven't really had anything to say.

I'm not saying it's the reason you or anyone here is religious. I'm saying that the genesis of all religion - the reason it arose in human history - is because of a fear of no longer existing after we die. There's nothing wrong with that

[digitize]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Religion is a symptom of being afraid to die.

I'm not sure if that's exclusively why religion exists, but it's certainly a major proximate cause.

I think it may be interesting to have a thread where everyone describes their personal religious beliefs, but I'm not sure.

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

I'm saying that the genesis of all religion - the reason it arose in human history - is because of a fear of no longer existing after we die.

I don't want to seem like I'm picking on you here, but I'd have to challenge this rather strongly. For one, the concept of a well-defined afterlife is a relatively new development. The only pre-Christian society of which I can think that pays any real attention to the afterlife is the ancient Egyptians. Even Judaism, as far as I understand it, does not say much about an afterlife. The mythology about the afterlife in other early religions is vague and often paints a highly depressing picture of what awaits.

Anthropologically speaking, I think it is fairly safe to say that religion, if we define that as some form of ritualized belief in the supernatural, begins as (and largely still is) a means of expressing social value, of demonstrating the importance of certain acts or ideas.

The earliest spiritual rituals, for example, deal with the absolute essentials of life: child-bearing and food-gathering. Then, as family units start to coalesce, ancestor worship develops; next, in early urban environments, deities of farming and warfare appear, and etc.

On this basis I would argue that religion is meant to instill in people a sense of what they have to be doing in order to ensure the survival of their communities. I think that survives even to this day, as you see many religious people believing that their specific values and practices need to be carried out for the good of society at large.

[digitize]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

On this basis I would argue that religion is meant to instill in people a sense of what they have to be doing in order to ensure the survival of their communities. And I'm sure you can see how that pattern could lead to abuse as society became more complex.

Yeah, that's exactly how I feel too.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by digitize

I'm not sure if that's exclusively why religion exists, but it's certainly a major proximate cause.

I'm certainly open to hear what other people think. It could be interesting. But I think if you go back far enough, to the very beginning of any semblance of religion, the reason would be fear of death. Any way to prove that definitively? Probably not.
It doesn't take a dismissal of modern religions to concede that point though. And like I said, there's nothing wrong with a fear of death. It's perfectly natural. I know I am

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

I don't want to seem like I'm picking on you here

not at all man. I value and appreciate your knowledge. I'm just about to head out for the night, but looking forward to carrying the convo on tomorrow

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

And like I said, there's nothing wrong with a fear of death. It's perfectly natural. I know I am

The idea definitely freaks me out, too. I may not be very religious, but I do like the idea of there being something after this life is over. What exactly that would be, I couldn't begin to tell you, and of course it's not something that I could prove to be true, but the thought of people I love who've passed being comfortable in some other existence and whatnot is a comforting one for sure.

[Pearl]

Last year, I read "The Evolution of God"...I forgot the author's name. Anyway, the first quarter of the book discusses how religion came about in early societies by looking at cultures like those in Papua New Guinea, which are still very much stone age like. It gives a very good argument on how religion could not be avoided in ancient history. The author is an agnostic, so maybe some of you may want to read it.