True situation within Greece

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wow... if the euro was devalued throughout Europe it would be a total nightmare dealing with non-euro countries as we do (with the UK for instance - the exchange rate has been pretty awful as it is and it is getting very expensive to buy from/pay debts in the UK now on a euro wage - many people live between the UK and euro-zones and rely on wages paid in euros - devaluation would be disasterous for them)... maybe a two-tiered euro could be a solution - i think this has already been discussed by the powers that be? or ditch the euro completely and let individual countries devalue their currencies as necessary

ps- the factories certainly aren't coming to France - France is losing its production capacity as well - factories are closing down all over - massive French firms, Citroen, Renault, etc. - it's unprecedented actually
 
the thing i don't understand - here in France, everyone is morose, saying how difficult everything is, yet, half-term holidays have just started and nearly everyone i know here, and practically all of my kids' schoolfriends have pissed off somewhere for a two-week holiday! this happens every holiday, people go off for a whole month in the summer, and during EVERY school holiday throughout the year - and these are just regular French families who claim that they scrape by and aren't even eligible to pay income tax - i honestly don't know how they can afford it - we rarely can afford holidays even though i regularly work 50+ hour weeks and have a relatively good job...

what i mean is, i think France is still in cloud cuckoo land... you have villages here where the mayors still think they can spend silly amounts of money on flowers and frivolous things while more serious issues are swept under the carpet... i can't see how it can continue, but people still seem to be living in a bubble (for now)

I payed some attention to the yet recent french presidential election and its campaign and I was negatively amazed because, for example, in the debates, almost no one talked about Europe. Europe took just a few minutes of a long debate. I was like "WTF?!"...
Now Hollande has been saying some things. Last week he clearly said Portugal and Spain shouldn't be paying this and like this. But I think that's also fear of the contagion... Which I think it has already happened.
You probably noticed that 2013's French budget is also heavier than ever. I personally think that Hollande is well intentioned, and I even think, in economical terms, he did well in raising the salaries (instead of decreasing like the rest of Europe), for example, so money still circulates in french economy. But I think austerity will arrive to France next year because Hollande is hands tied and he cannot much to avoid it.
What I like to see is that Hollande and Mario Monti (together with Mariano Rajoy) have already stopped a few of Merkel's ideas. Which means that Merkel is losing strenght, but it's not because of Hollande alone, I feel it's mostly because of Draghi.

Do you want to know what our PM, Passos Coelho, thinks about this? He's against Hollande, Mario Monti... And even against Rajoy who comes from his political family and has his social points of view.
Passos Coelho wants to blindly follow Merkel, he nods yes to every single thing that Merkel/Schauble says and if they say the opposite next week, he'll nod yes as well.
For example, he affirmed (with no shame at all) that in last week's european summit, he entered, participated and left without saying a word about our country in that meeting. Which is anothet proof that he wants all this.

Some people say that this Government is as fanatic as (ideologically different) diehard communists. And I think that's true. I start to believe that they want the so-called Regenerating Destruction, which is destroying, razing the country, the economy and the social tissue, to "rebuild" it again with their ideological model. And today's situation if their opportunity.
 
Do you want to know what our PM, Passos Coelho, thinks about this? He's against Hollande, Mario Monti... And even against Rajoy who comes from his political family and has his social points of view.
Passos Coelho wants to blindly follow Merkel, he nods yes to every single thing that Merkel/Schauble says and if they say the opposite next week, he'll nod yes as well.
For example, he affirmed (with no shame at all) that in last week's european summit, he entered, participated and left without saying a word about our country in that meeting. Which is anothet proof that he wants all this.

Some people say that this Government is as fanatic as (ideologically different) diehard communists. And I think that's true. I start to believe that they want the so-called Regenerating Destruction, which is destroying, razing the country, the economy and the social tissue, to "rebuild" it again with their ideological model. And today's situation if their opportunity.

it's petrifying, Aygo - i swear they are trying to "Shock Doctrine" us all (as per Naomi Klein) - i.e. bring us to our knees and "rebuild" on their terms according to their ideology... terrifying times really...
 
wow... if the euro was devalued throughout Europe it would be a total nightmare dealing with non-euro countries as we do (with the UK for instance - the exchange rate has been pretty awful as it is and it is getting very expensive to buy from/pay debts in the UK now on a euro wage - many people live between the UK and euro-zones and rely on wages paid in euros - devaluation would be disasterous for them)... maybe a two-tiered euro could be a solution - i think this has already been discussed by the powers that be? or ditch the euro completely and let individual countries devalue their currencies as necessary

ps- the factories certainly aren't coming to France - France is losing its production capacity as well - factories are closing down all over - massive French firms, Citroen, Renault, etc. - it's unprecedented actually

I think that making two different Euro's would accentuate the difference and the racism North vs South and it separates it in "different kinds of europeans", like 1st class Europeans and 2nd class Europeans. I'm against it because of the political and social impact.

I heard that PSA/Peugeot-Citroën and Renault are shutting down their factories in France. But didn't that happen too in the 1970's/1980's? Isn't Renault partially nationalized and controled by the Government? What can Hollande do about that?
 
Isn't Renault partially nationalized and controled by the Government? What can Hollande do about that?

i'm not sure off the top of my head - would have to check...

Hollande seems to be at a loss right now - there is no money - the budget deficit is enormous... there's been a bit of a scandal here recently - a report was leaked a few days ago, on an investigation Hollande had commissioned into solving the deficit, and the "Socialist" economist who did the report recommended the same solutions (i.e. VAT rise to 21.60%) as Sarkozy had planned for this October but which Hollande reversed when he came to power - so it's pretty embarrassing really...

i read the analogy the other day, that France is like a ship which is rapidly taking on water, and everyone is just standing there looking helplessly at the captain hoping he will do something... pretty accurate i reckon! (though extremely worrying!)

i like Hollande, i think it's great he's standing up to Merkel, and he has a more human side to him - such a relief after the personality disaster that was Sarkozy! but i worry about whether he is up to the task ahead... guess we just have to fasten our seatbelts and prepare for the rocky ride ahead!
 
i'm not sure off the top of my head - would have to check...

Hollande seems to be at a loss right now - there is no money - the budget deficit is enormous... there's been a bit of a scandal here recently - a report was leaked a few days ago, on an investigation Hollande had commissioned into solving the deficit, and the "Socialist" economist who did the report recommended the same solutions (i.e. VAT rise to 21.60%) as Sarkozy had planned for this October but which Hollande reversed when he came to power - so it's pretty embarrassing really...

i read the analogy the other day, that France is like a ship which is rapidly taking on water, and everyone is just standing there looking helplessly at the captain hoping he will do something... pretty accurate i reckon! (though extremely worrying!)

i like Hollande, i think it's great he's standing up to Merkel, and he has a more human side to him - such a relief after the personality disaster that was Sarkozy! but i worry about whether he is up to the task ahead... guess we just have to fasten our seatbelts and prepare for the rocky ride ahead!

That's the impression I have about Hollande. I think he's well intentioned. But he's got his hands tied and there's not much he can do.

I wish portuguese PS leader, Seguro, was like that. Seguro is so plastic, so unconvincing, so weak, such a scary doggie, such a follower, his speeches and so dead and cliché. That's why, although PPD/PSD dropped from 38% in the elections to 24% in pollings, PS only went from 28% to 31%.

Do you think Strauss-Khan would've been a good (better) president or he would do the same thing?

I have family living in France (yes, some of those portuguese than ran away from the dictatorship and poverty to France in the 1960/70's) and their children, now grown up, came to visit us this summer. I asked about the european issues, if they were aware about what's happening here, and they were pretty much unaware of it all. They told me that in France these issues don't have much discussion or attention. I was surprised about it...
 
Today was the vote of the General State Budget for 2013 here. There was a demonstration in front of the Parliment, at the time of the votation, 3 p.m.
The deputees of the right-wing parties (the parties that support the government) were so scared that asked for the votation to occur a few hours earlier.
At the end of the afternoon, the few deputees who dared leaving that Parliment were insulted and had to go back because some of the protesters tried to surround and block the several exits of Parliament.
I have been hearing for months, several times, that some people want to invade the Parliment, but it has never really happened... Yet. If things continue this way, I suspect that this will happen sooner or later, due to the hatred that people have of politicians, mainly from deputees and ministers these days.

Yesterday a journalist said that the most recent Nestlé report for Portugal says that despite the crisis, even though people have less money, although domestic consumption has fallen "freefall style", despite the consumption of essential goods has decreased (including food, where people now buy mostly house brands)... Surprisingly, the consumption of edible flour low cost increased. What this means is that now there are people famine, with hunger, and that, not having money, they are replacing meals with these type of products which are substantially cheaper.

The biggest difference I see between Portugal and (for instance) Spain or Greece is that, besides the fact that we've been a little more pacific (don't know until when), portuguese repeat a behaviour that's been part of our culture: people hidethe misery. There is an increse of hidden and ashamed poverty.
 
I heard about the budget being passed on NPR today... wow. This is scary, and sad, stuff.

Aygo, do you think there is any chance of revolutions in Southern Europe, given prolonged economic stagnation or further contraction?

I tend to be extremely cautious about thinking in revolutionary terms, but from all that I can tell, this is the stuff of revolutions.
 
I heard about the budget being passed on NPR today... wow. This is scary, and sad, stuff.

Aygo, do you think there is any chance of revolutions in Southern Europe, given prolonged economic stagnation or further contraction?

I tend to be extremely cautious about thinking in revolutionary terms, but from all that I can tell, this is the stuff of revolutions.

I seriously believe that something will happen soon (and "soon" can be tomorrow or within 2/3 years, but yes, I do think it will).
What's happening now in Southern Europe (and soon in France and other countries of Central Europe because everyone's contaminated) is not socially sustainable for a long time.
It is not socially sustainable throw out the window, in the blink of an eye, a construction of decades, especially with regard to the concept of welfare state and to what it means in terms of prosperity and peace. The welfare state has been for decades the "social glue" in all European countries and for Europe it self. Ending it suddenly, to require sacrifices that people know it will not have another result besides impoverish them seriously and by force, to tell people this is all them fault, to have people like Merkel (people they have not chosen or elected) to dictate it all... All this is to ask people to rebel.

Spain and Greece are with unemployment rates of 25%, and of the total unemployed population 50-55% are younger than 30 years (16% total, 37% under 30). What country and society that is able to handle this? None.

Do not forget, moreover, that the Arab Revolts / The Arab Spring began the very same reason (despite having different political regimes at the time): absence of prosperity, unemployment (especially among young people) high, the absence of a light at the end of the tunnel.
I have no doubts that portuguese, italian, spanish, greek (and even french) are mediterranean peoples and, for that reason, we're all culturally way closer to northen african countries than to central/northern european countries (even if they're mostly muslim and we're heavily catholic, there cultural similarities are huge).
It wouldn't surprise me if, within the next 5 years, something similar (or with the same importance) with the Arab Spring would happen in Southern Europe... With all the consequences to the EU project.

You have the case of Hungary. It's scary, very scary, but no one talks about Hungary. And the EU doesn't care about it.
Hungary is today a fascist regime. Orbán's party changed the Constitution [and, frighteningly, the motto of the new Constitution is exactly equal to that of the Portuguese Constitution during the Salazar regime: God, Country and Family]. Orbán's party criminalized socialist and communist parties; they arrested the leaders of the opposition parties in demonstrations; to be homeless on the streets is forbidden and they use homeless for free/forced jobs in public works; they did shut down radios and other media related with the biggest opposition party. In Hungary an opinion polling revealed that one 30% of the Hungarians eventually(!) thinks about going to vote, because they don't care about politics anymore.

P.S.: We're not having economical stagnation. We're having a prolonged recession. For you to have an idea, in 5 years Greece lost almost 25% of their GDP. Portugal almost didn't grow since 2000 and between 2010 and 2013 we're gonna lose 10% of our GDP, going back to the levels of the late 1990's. How can we pay a debt of 124% of our GDP (next year) - a debt most of it not created by us - if the economy is being killed and doesn't generate richness to pay a single coin?
 
I heard about the budget being passed on NPR today... wow. This is scary, and sad, stuff.

Aygo, do you think there is any chance of revolutions in Southern Europe, given prolonged economic stagnation or further contraction?

I tend to be extremely cautious about thinking in revolutionary terms, but from all that I can tell, this is the stuff of revolutions.

A Golden Dawn fascistic/militaristic reactionary acquiring of power seems more likely than a genuine revolution, but the workers should never be underestimated. Hoping for a worker's revolution, and Greece is one of the most likely places for it to happen.

You have the case of Hungary. It's scary, very scary, but no one talks about Hungary. And the EU doesn't care about it.
Hungary is today a fascist regime. Orbán's party changed the Constitution [and, frighteningly, the motto of the new Constitution is exactly equal to that of the Portuguese Constitution during the Salazar regime: God, Country and Family]. Orbán's party criminalized socialist and communist parties; they arrested the leaders of the opposition parties in demonstrations; to be homeless on the streets is forbidden and they use homeless for free/forced jobs in public works; they did shut down radios and other media related with the biggest opposition party. In Hungary an opinion polling revealed that one 30% of the Hungarians eventually(!) thinks about going to vote, because they don't care about politics anymore.

Hungary scares me quite a bit, read not too long ago about a law put into practice which would restrict university students from leaving the country which is the typical authoritarian practice of limiting freedom of movement. I read about paramilitary squads (including teenagers I believe) that are trained to harrass immigrants and Roma people and, unsurprisingly, the police never do anything to help them. Not to mention the party Jobbik are more or less on par with Golden Dawn in terms of influence and danger. Generally, it doesn't seem like the West care about how right wing or fascistic a state is just as long as that state supports them.

I wouldn't necessarily label Hungary as fascist, but it's drifting through the right wing authoritarianism area pretty swiftly.
 
A Golden Dawn fascistic/militaristic reactionary acquiring of power seems more likely than a genuine revolution, but the workers should never be underestimated. Hoping for a worker's revolution, and Greece is one of the most likely places for it to happen.



Hungary scares me quite a bit, read not too long ago about a law put into practice which would restrict university students from leaving the country which is the typical authoritarian practice of limiting freedom of movement. I read about paramilitary squads (including teenagers I believe) that are trained to harrass immigrants and Roma people and, unsurprisingly, the police never do anything to help them. Not to mention the party Jobbik are more or less on par with Golden Dawn in terms of influence and danger. Generally, it doesn't seem like the West care about how right wing or fascistic a state is just as long as that state supports them.

I wouldn't necessarily label Hungary as fascist, but it's drifting through the right wing authoritarianism area pretty swiftly.

I think that the most likely scenario in Greece is the repetition of the 1967's events, which is the seizure of power by the military and a new "dictatorship of colonels" for a few years. Do not forget that Greece has a conflict with the neighbour Turkey and it's convienient for both to have military strenght.

In the case of Portugal, this Government is not gonna last 9 months. It'll fall after the local power elections in September, which matches the date of the end of the troika memorandum. After that, the interests will still be criminal, economy is already in a recessive spiral, and we'll have to require financial assistance again, a second memorandum. Which means this government will have no legitimacy at all (I think it already doesn't have, but that's another story).
In the elections, PS is likely to be far from an absolute majority, the right-wing parties will be smashed, and I think the solution will be like Italy: a Prime-Minister no one elected, with a fragile government, supported by PS/PSD/CDS, the three parties who signed the first memorandum in 2011.
After that it'll be the spiral to the political caos.

I wouldn't be surprised too if Spain would enter in a similar political scenario, but ending in the usual inner-nationalist crescent tensions.

Today I have no doubt at all that something important will happen in these societies "soon", I just don't know how soon and what kind of events.

What you read about Hungary is right. Add this the persecution to gypsies (which I think it'll happen in Portugal too when the easy scapegoats have to be found soon), to homeless people, to jews, to unemployed... Not only by the government, but also by people who are looking for their social scapegoats too. In fact, Orbán claimed that the model to follow is the chinese model. I recomend the reading of the articles published in the Presseurop website. They're very good about this subject.
I put the "Fascist" label on the hungarian case because it has lots of similarities with the beggining of Salazar's rise and regime implementation... And which is happening in Portugal again too. The kind of speech of «there's one and only one way out / everyone must stick together for this national purpose / it's for our own good / those who are against it are betrayals», this is the kind of fascist used in the 1920's, more sophisticated, and applied to today's reality, but it's the same.
 
Yikes, its scary to read about Hungary's descent into madness, so to speak. This does sound like what happened to Germany in the early 20th century, minus losing their colonial possessions. Do you think other countries will spiral downwards too?
 
Not only it sounds like 1920's Germany as it is. The paralelism between the present situation and the 1920/1930's is huge.
There's no other way but down for Europe. The EU (well, people who's been on the top of the EU) as well as the weak present european leaders/PM's/presidents highly underestimated the History and the dymanics of Europe. They thought that the EU would build a new Europe from a blank sheet, forgetting the cultures, the nationalisms and regionalisms, the mutual hatreds, the inner behaviours of the different peoples. Why should we be different just because we now have goods like internet, good cars and food?
I have no doubt that there're be conflicts in a short-term period... And not only in Southern Europe.
For example, the tension between Hungary and Austria was never fully resolved.
The Balcains (the good old Balcains) will always be a barrel of powder, with all those different ethnies, beliefs, cultures and people in such a small space.
Germany, as the present proofs, will always be Germany with its innate, unconscious and proud tendency of wanting to Europe for itself and to dominate it (sorry for the germans who are reading this, but it's what I personally think).
The UK will always want to stand with one foot inside and one outside.
A portuguese and a finish will never feel they belong to the same culture. The same between a czech and a belgian, for instance. It simply doesn't.
Why should it be different now?
 
In regards to other European countries, I don't think the Baltics are travelling all that well at the moment. Not to mention countries like Ukraine and Russia are never really heading in positive directions, notably the latter and I think it's commonly known that Russia is home to a staggering amount of fascists, on the streets and in the government. But then again, you can't really think positively of a country which has a political situation which has people like Zhirinovsky still somehow relevant.
 
Not only it sounds like 1920's Germany as it is. The paralelism between the present situation and the 1920/1930's is huge.
There's no other way but down for Europe. The EU (well, people who's been on the top of the EU) as well as the weak present european leaders/PM's/presidents highly underestimated the History and the dymanics of Europe. They thought that the EU would build a new Europe from a blank sheet, forgetting the cultures, the nationalisms and regionalisms, the mutual hatreds, the inner behaviours of the different peoples. Why should we be different just because we now have goods like internet, good cars and food?
I have no doubt that there're be conflicts in a short-term period... And not only in Southern Europe.
For example, the tension between Hungary and Austria was never fully resolved.
The Balcains (the good old Balcains) will always be a barrel of powder, with all those different ethnies, beliefs, cultures and people in such a small space.
Germany, as the present proofs, will always be Germany with its innate, unconscious and proud tendency of wanting to Europe for itself and to dominate it (sorry for the germans who are reading this, but it's what I personally think).
The UK will always want to stand with one foot inside and one outside.
A portuguese and a finish will never feel they belong to the same culture. The same between a czech and a belgian, for instance. It simply doesn't.
Why should it be different now?

I agree with this. A single government-like institution can't force people to forget about their history and culture in a short time span. If it could ever happen, it would take many generations. And even then, there will still be a pocket of people who remember their background.
 
I agree with this. A single government-like institution can't force people to forget about their history and culture in a short time span. If it could ever happen, it would take many generations. And even then, there will still be a pocket of people who remember their background.

Let's imagine the EU turns into a federation like the US. Then, we all go to elections to elect a president. The president elect is, let's imagine, austrian. Can we all imagine the tensions in the southern and eastern countries against the central Europe countries, in times of unpopular policies applied by "a man who comes from the same country Hitler did"?
And this is a mere example. It could be the opposite, it could be greek president that would generate hatred from the balcains people's (Macedonia, Serbia, Albania... even if some of these countries are not in the EU... yet) and in central Europe countries.
If Spain starts a new civil war between kingdoms who want to be independent, do y'all think that finish, danish or czech armies are interested in a conflict that they don't feel it belongs to them? I mean, a New Yorker and a Californian feel American the same way. A swedish and a maltese, or a slovakian and spanish don't.
Federalism, true federalism in Europe is an utopia, it will never happen or succeed. And judging on the history of the EU, who has been built on the people's walls (there was no referendums for most steps of the construction of the EU), forced federalism will end so badly...
 
In regards to other European countries, I don't think the Baltics are travelling all that well at the moment. Not to mention countries like Ukraine and Russia are never really heading in positive directions, notably the latter and I think it's commonly known that Russia is home to a staggering amount of fascists, on the streets and in the government. But then again, you can't really think positively of a country which has a political situation which has people like Zhirinovsky still somehow relevant.

Russia in not interested in the collapse of the EU because of the economical and commercial advantages. But Russia is interested in the embrittlement of a few regions like Greece and the Balcains.
When Greece collapses and enters into a military regime... Who do you think is gonna "help" them in the "turkish question"? :D
 
I agree with this. A single government-like institution can't force people to forget about their history and culture in a short time span. If it could ever happen, it would take many generations. And even then, there will still be a pocket of people who remember their background.

absolutely - i see this here in my village, at micro-level - some older families have owned their homes here for many (4 +) generations and even French people who come from just a few miles away or another region (not to mention "Parisians") are referred to as "foreigners"!

yet the rural community, the farmers depend on the EU for their livelihood - they are desperate to stay within the EU so that they can get their subsidies - otherwise they would not be able to survive and the countryside would die...
 
Really interesting insights Aygo. Portugal has gotten very little (if any) press in North America compared to Spain/Italy/Greece and even Ireland a couple of years ago. I also think that because of the 2008 financial crisis, North America is even more insular now and concerned with its own problems which pushes the European financial crisis to the back of our minds.

Oddly enough the Balkans are actually a region that I would be least worried about. Nobody there has any interest in physical conflict anymore - these people fought and died a mere 20 years ago and I don't want to say that they got it out of their system, but in a way, yes. The appetite for conflict among nations there doesn't exist like it did in the past, but what does exist is the appetite for domestic social unrest. Very similar numbers re: unemployment, especially of young people. Whereas their tourism is concerned, a country like Croatia is very lucky that it doesn't operate on the Euro at this point. A move to the Euro would really have disastrous effects, much like Portugal, Spain, Greece are seeing in their tourist sectors.
 
absolutely - i see this here in my village, at micro-level - some older families have owned their homes here for many (4 +) generations and even French people who come from just a few miles away or another region (not to mention "Parisians") are referred to as "foreigners"!

yet the rural community, the farmers depend on the EU for their livelihood - they are desperate to stay within the EU so that they can get their subsidies - otherwise they would not be able to survive and the countryside would die...

This.
In some countries like mine that doesn't exist much (although there's some indifference of North vs South or Continental Portugal vs Islands), but that's a reality in most countries in Europe.
If this kind of tensions exist inside the countries, now imagine it between very different nations in a Europe that's small in area but huge and with great distances in cultural diversity.
 
If this kind of tensions exist inside the countries, now imagine it between very different nations in a Europe that's small in area but huge and with great distances in cultural diversity.

:up:

not to mention the different languages too!
 
Really interesting insights Aygo. Portugal has gotten very little (if any) press in North America compared to Spain/Italy/Greece and even Ireland a couple of years ago. I also think that because of the 2008 financial crisis, North America is even more insular now and concerned with its own problems which pushes the European financial crisis to the back of our minds.

Oddly enough the Balkans are actually a region that I would be least worried about. Nobody there has any interest in physical conflict anymore - these people fought and died a mere 20 years ago and I don't want to say that they got it out of their system, but in a way, yes. The appetite for conflict among nations there doesn't exist like it did in the past, but what does exist is the appetite for domestic social unrest. Very similar numbers re: unemployment, especially of young people. Whereas their tourism is concerned, a country like Croatia is very lucky that it doesn't operate on the Euro at this point. A move to the Euro would really have disastrous effects, much like Portugal, Spain, Greece are seeing in their tourist sectors.

Croatia will join the EU on January 1st 2013 and the Lisbon Treaty says that all countries that are entering or in the EU are required to join the Euro.
I wouldn't be so peaceful about the Balcains. The Kosovo question is not resolved. Serbia still doesn't recognize independence. Even inside the EU there are oposite positions. Example: Portugal recognizes Kosovo as an independent state but our neighbour Spain doesn't. There's also the Voivodina question, similar to Kosovo's. And Albania is also a case that's never close. History has shown that in the Balkans, simply throwing logs around the fire is enough for the barrel to explode again.
 
:up:

not to mention the different languages too!

Exactly. When I mentioned cultural diversity, I included the language.
Imagine me or mama_cass being governed by a President that comes from Czech Republic.

I don't want him, a man who doesn't even speaks my language and that lives thousands of miles away, to rule me and probably mama_cass agrees.

And then, me and mama_cass would disagree in another point. She lives in a country who has a presidential regime - I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I assume that she's for the presidential regime. I live in a mostly parlamentary regime, and I'd be against presidential regime. In fact, I'm against the fact that, in European Elections today, I can only vote for the deputees in my country. But I didn't choose that asshole of Durão Barroso (I didn't vote for him for Prime-Minister in 2002 and didn't vote for President of the European Comission in 2004 and 2009). I don't recognize political legitimacy on him.
 
Croatia will join the EU on January 1st 2013 and the Lisbon Treaty says that all countries that are entering or in the EU are required to join the Euro.

In theory. But in reality you need to meet all the economic convergence criteria. It is conceivable that this doesn't happen for 10+ years and who knows what the status of the Euro will be by then.
 
In theory. But in reality you need to meet all the economic convergence criteria. It is conceivable that this doesn't happen for 10+ years and who knows what the status of the Euro will be by then.

It's in the statutes of the EU, revised by the Treaty of Lisbon in 2007.
The first members of the Euro also failed to care about economic/fiscal/social/financial convergence and harmony when they founded the currency, nor the countries that followed.
Europe is not learning one single thing from the mistakes commited, including the architecture of the Euro. Why should they care about it now? :wink:
 
And then, me and mama_cass would disagree in another point. She lives in a country who has a presidential regime - I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I assume that she's for the presidential regime.

hehe i've known both systems actually - i'm English so was brought up with parliament and a queen, but have lived in France most of my adult/working life... tbh, i think i prefer parliament + the queen - i think the French president has too much power - too Napoleonic-like which would be pretty scary if someone nasty got into power, not to mention the power the local mayors have here - i see very little democracy at local level as the mayors have so much power and our mayor in particular will regularly override the local councillors on various local issues which is quite disturbing and very frustrating... i do think the French system needs a democratic overhaul especially at local level for sure - apparently the Swiss system is meant to be a good model - lots of decision-making at grass-roots level by local councils - apparently it is very effective and democratic... i think decisions should come from the people in a democracy, not be imposed from the top - i always thought that was the difference between a democracy and a dictatorship lol!!
 
It's in the statutes of the EU, revised by the Treaty of Lisbon in 2007.
The first members of the Euro also failed to care about economic/fiscal/social/financial convergence and harmony when they founded the currency, nor the countries that followed.
Europe is not learning one single thing from the mistakes commited, including the architecture of the Euro. Why should they care about it now? :wink:

There are countries that have been members of the EU for 16-18 years and have not yet managed to adopt the Euro. No way does Croatia get anywhere near the Euro for a long, long time. Much has been written on this in Bloomberg and so on. Frankly I'd say it's a better bet that the Euro won't exist by then.
 
There are countries that have been members of the EU for 16-18 years and have not yet managed to adopt the Euro. No way does Croatia get anywhere near the Euro for a long, long time. Much has been written on this in Bloomberg and so on. Frankly I'd say it's a better bet that the Euro won't exist by then.

Oh I definitely would advise countries (special small economies) not to join the Euro and to mantain their own soveraignty.
 
hehe i've known both systems actually - i'm English so was brought up with parliament and a queen, but have lived in France most of my adult/working life... tbh, i think i prefer parliament + the queen - i think the French president has too much power - too Napoleonic-like which would be pretty scary if someone nasty got into power, not to mention the power the local mayors have here - i see very little democracy at local level as the mayors have so much power and our mayor in particular will regularly override the local councillors on various local issues which is quite disturbing and very frustrating... i do think the French system needs a democratic overhaul especially at local level for sure - apparently the Swiss system is meant to be a good model - lots of decision-making at grass-roots level by local councils - apparently it is very effective and democratic... i think decisions should come from the people in a democracy, not be imposed from the top - i always thought that was the difference between a democracy and a dictatorship lol!!

I agree with most of this. Altough I don't like monarchies (to me, the idea that someone was appointed by a divine entity or whoever to rule a territory, is somewhat hallucinatory in terms of psyche - and of course this is an exaggeration on my part), I'm 100% republican (not in the "American Republicans" sense, because I'm mostly lefttist) and pro Parlamentary system. So, I think the british system (with the exception of the Queen instead of a President elected by universal suffrage like any other representant) is better in terms of distribution of the power.

But, by curiosity, hasn't the french system already suffered several changes through the last decades, or am I wrong and mixing it with something else?
 
Question for you about the sentiment in Portugal - if, suppose, Greece was able to default and go back to the drachma, what would the views be in Portugal/Spain on staying with the Euro? In theory Greece on a drachma could significantly outcompete these countries in terms of tourism (why not go to Greece for 1/4 of the cost, for example). Any other southern European country with a significant tourist component would be very negatively impacted, no?
 
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