Today in Wisconsin students rise up and protest! - Page 5 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-21-2011, 01:23 PM   #81
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 27,430
Local Time: 11:50 AM
(AP)MADISON, Wis. — Sarah Palin says union members protesting Wisconsin Republicans' plan to help balance the state's budget by cutting collective bargaining rights are taking up "the wrong fight at the wrong time."

Palin weighed in on the debate in a Friday night posting on her Facebook page but didn't indicate whether she would join weekend conservative counter-protests organized by groups including the Tea Party Patriots and Americans for Prosperity.

In the posting addressed to "union brothers and sisters," Palin says Wisconsin taxpayers shouldn't be asked to pay for benefits "that are not sustainable." She says "real solidarity means everyone being willing to sacrifice."
__________________

MrsSpringsteen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 04:47 PM   #82
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 20,569
Local Time: 10:50 AM
Quote:
after all, quite a few prominent conservatives, including Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and Rick Santorum, denounced the uprising in Egypt and insist that President Obama should have helped the Mubarak regime suppress it.
This really should be a red flag to more people than it currently is.

Quote:
(AP)MADISON, Wis. — Sarah Palin says union members protesting Wisconsin Republicans' plan to help balance the state's budget by cutting collective bargaining rights are taking up "the wrong fight at the wrong time."
Then do tell, when is the right time, the right fight?

Quote:
In the posting addressed to "union brothers and sisters," Palin says Wisconsin taxpayers shouldn't be asked to pay for benefits "that are not sustainable." She says "real solidarity means everyone being willing to sacrifice."
Indeed, we all do need to work together. So when are you going to start sacrificing, Sarah?

And "union brothers and sisters". Uh-huh.

Angela
__________________

Moonlit_Angel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 04:51 PM   #83
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,698
Local Time: 05:50 PM
Quote:
after all, quite a few prominent conservatives, including Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and Rick Santorum, denounced the uprising in Egypt and insist that President Obama should have helped the Mubarak regime suppress it.
"Because he was still our bastard!"
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 05:15 PM   #84
Refugee
 
AliEnvy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 2,320
Local Time: 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen View Post
In the posting addressed to "union brothers and sisters," Palin says Wisconsin taxpayers shouldn't be asked to pay for benefits "that are not sustainable." She says "real solidarity means everyone being willing to sacrifice."
That's right, just keep reminding the little people that this a fight between tax payers and public workers.

As long as middle and working class people are fighting amongst themselves, the rich win.

Tragically, it will probably work. In which case I will root for a general strike.
AliEnvy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 05:23 PM   #85
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
2861U2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: watching the Cubs
Posts: 4,257
Local Time: 11:50 AM
So what is it, Democrats? Is WI having budget problems or not? Paul Krugman says yes, Rachel Maddow and Ed Schultz say no. Half the protesters say yes, half say no. Can you all at least get your story straight so you have some credibility?
2861U2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 05:27 PM   #86
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,600
Local Time: 08:50 AM
If the people of Wis. could vote on this issue at least 60% would side with the GOP.
deep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 06:04 PM   #87
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,892
Local Time: 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2861U2 View Post
So what is it, Democrats? Is WI having budget problems or not? Paul Krugman says yes, Rachel Maddow and Ed Schultz say no. Half the protesters say yes, half say no. Can you all at least get your story straight so you have some credibility?
He's right. Guys this needs to be at the top of our agenda at tonight's meeting of All the Nations Democrats and Left Leaners.

Edit: FYI, I won't be there tonight as it conflicts with my meeting with The Black Community.
maycocksean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 06:06 PM   #88
Blue Crack Distributor
 
corianderstem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 64,498
Local Time: 09:50 AM
So the protesters have no credibility because it might just be about more than one thing?

Come on.
corianderstem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 06:20 PM   #89
Blue Crack Addict
 
onebloodonelife's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 15,106
Local Time: 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2861U2 View Post
So what is it, Democrats? Is WI having budget problems or not? Paul Krugman says yes, Rachel Maddow and Ed Schultz say no. Half the protesters say yes, half say no. Can you all at least get your story straight so you have some credibility?
Yes, so shocking that there'd be misinformation floating around, considering the despicable current state of our mainstream media.

The state is having budget issues...now. Prior to Walker taking office? Not so much. So, the issue becomes why exactly did he want there to be a budget shortfall? Oh, perhaps it's to pick a fight with workers over something that has nothing to do with the budget. Collective bargaining is not a budget issue, period.

The state's fiscal bureau themselves attributed over half of the current shortfall directly to implementations Walker put into place after taking office.

Quote:
Our analysis indicates that for the three-year period, aggregate, general fund tax collections will be $202.8 million lower than those reflected in the November/December reports. More than half of the lower estimate ($117.2 million) is due to the impact of Special Session Senate Bill 2 (health savings accounts), Assembly Bill 3 (tax deductions/credits for relocated businesses), and Assembly Bill 7 (tax exclusion for new employees).
onebloodonelife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 06:28 PM   #90
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Jeannieco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: If the moonlight caught you crying on Killiney Bay oh sing your song let your song be sung
Posts: 4,992
Local Time: 09:50 AM
Also, I just heard on Ed Schultz's radio show and interview with Mary Bell, leader of the Wisconsin Education Council. She said that they have told Gov.Walker that they would gladly concede all monetary issues and would willingly sacrifice that, however he must take collective bargaining off the table. Did he? No.

That pretty much sums up the motives here. IMO. They want to bust the union permanently and take away the rights of workers forever. This has nothing to do with money. They want you to think that it does.
Jeannieco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 06:30 PM   #91
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 20,569
Local Time: 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AliEnvy View Post
That's right, just keep reminding the little people that this a fight between tax payers and public workers.

As long as middle and working class people are fighting amongst themselves, the rich win.

Tragically, it will probably work. In which case I will root for a general strike.
You know another thing that gets me about that message? When the Tea Party had their rallies and protests, it was just "good ol' Americans standing up for their rights".

But this, no, this is "not the right time", and we must all band together, and stuff.

Angela
Moonlit_Angel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 06:34 PM   #92
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,228
Local Time: 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2861U2 View Post
So what is it, Democrats? Is WI having budget problems or not? Paul Krugman says yes, Rachel Maddow and Ed Schultz say no. Half the protesters say yes, half say no. Can you all at least get your story straight so you have some credibility?
They weren't until your guy stepped in.
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 07:01 PM   #93
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Philadelphia
Posts: 19,218
Local Time: 12:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2861U2 View Post
So what is it, Democrats? Is WI having budget problems or not? Paul Krugman says yes, Rachel Maddow and Ed Schultz say no. Half the protesters say yes, half say no. Can you all at least get your story straight so you have some credibility?
Hey, look, it's a political party without uniform groupthink on every issue!
PhilsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 07:50 PM   #94
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,621
Local Time: 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2861U2 View Post
So what is it, Democrats? Is WI having budget problems or not? Paul Krugman says yes, Rachel Maddow and Ed Schultz say no. Half the protesters say yes, half say no. Can you all at least get your story straight so you have some credibility?
Last I checked the main point of contention among the demonstrators was the union busting/removal of bargaining rights.
Diemen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2011, 12:20 AM   #95
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,063
Local Time: 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2861U2 View Post
So what is it, Democrats? Is WI having budget problems or not? Paul Krugman says yes, Rachel Maddow and Ed Schultz say no. Half the protesters say yes, half say no. Can you all at least get your story straight so you have some credibility?


what do YOU think?
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2011, 12:23 AM   #96
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,063
Local Time: 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeannieco View Post

That pretty much sums up the motives here. IMO. They want to bust the union permanently and take away the rights of workers forever.


it's even more political than that. the unions are the *only* effective Democratic GOTV machine they have -- if you bust the unions, the political windfall for the GOP will be enormous.

that's what this is about at it's core.
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2011, 01:08 AM   #97
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 05:50 PM
New York Times, Feb. 21
Quote:
Among the thousands of demonstrators who jammed the Wisconsin State Capitol grounds this weekend was a well-financed advocate from Washington who was there to voice praise for cutting state spending by slashing union benefits and bargaining rights. The visitor, Tim Phillips, the president of Americans for Prosperity, told a large group of counterprotesters who had gathered Saturday at one edge of what otherwise was a mostly union crowd that the cuts were not only necessary, but they also represented the start of a much-needed nationwide move to slash public-sector union benefits. “We are going to bring fiscal sanity back to this great nation,” he said.

What Mr. Phillips did not mention was that his Virginia-based nonprofit group, whose budget surged to $40 million in 2010 from $7 million three years ago, was created and financed in part by the secretive billionaire brothers Charles G. and David H. Koch. State records also show that Koch Industries, their energy and consumer products conglomerate based in Wichita, Kan., was one of the biggest contributors to the election campaign of Gov. Scott Walker of Wisconsin, a Republican who has championed the proposed cuts. Even before the new governor was sworn in last month, executives from the Koch-backed group had worked behind the scenes to try to encourage a union showdown, Mr. Phillips said in an interview on Monday. State governments have gone into the red, he said, in part because of the excessively generous pay and benefits that unions have been able to negotiate for teachers, police, firefighters and other state and local employees. “We thought it was important to do,” Mr. Phillips said, adding that his group is already working with activists and state officials in Indiana, Ohio and Pennsylvania to urge them to take similar steps to curtail union benefits or give public employees the power to opt out of unions entirely.

To union leaders and liberal activists in Washington, this intervention in Wisconsin is proof of the expanding role played by nonprofit groups with murky ties to wealthy corporate executives as they push a decidedly conservative agenda. “The Koch brothers are the poster children of the effort by multinational corporate America to try to redefine the rights and values of American citizens,” said Representative Gwen Moore, Democrat of Wisconsin, who joined with others in the union protests.

...But the push to curtail union benefits in Wisconsin has been backed by many conservative groups that have no Koch connection, Mr. Phillips noted. Americans for Prosperity came to Wisconsin more than five years ago and has thousands of members, he said. The state chapter organized buses on Saturday for hundreds of Wisconsin residents to go to the Capitol to support the governor’s proposals.
For anyone interested in reading some Wisconsin-specific reports on public/private sector disparities in pensions and other compensation, there are two reports out there which keep being cited in news features and op-eds on the protests. The first comes from a conservative perspective and addresses pensions only; the second comes from a progressive perspective and looks at total compensation, along with some commentary on the various ways these comparisons are usually calculated and the pros and cons of various ways of adjusting the data.

WI Policy Research Institute, Feb. 2010 - Public/Private Pension Imbalance

Economic Policy Institute, Feb. 2011 - Are WI Public Employees Over-Compensated
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2011, 05:35 AM   #98
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: in a series of dreams
Posts: 580
Local Time: 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2861U2 View Post
So what is it, Democrats? Is WI having budget problems or not? Paul Krugman says yes, Rachel Maddow and Ed Schultz say no. Half the protesters say yes, half say no. Can you all at least get your story straight so you have some credibility?
What are you talking about? ... Have you read Krugman's 3rd paragraph in that article?

Quote:
In any case, however, Mr. Ryan was more right than he knew. For what’s happening in Wisconsin isn’t about the state budget, despite Mr. Walker’s pretense that he’s just trying to be fiscally responsible. It is, instead, about power. What Mr. Walker and his backers are trying to do is to make Wisconsin — and eventually, America — less of a functioning democracy and more of a third-world-style oligarchy. And that’s why anyone who believes that we need some counterweight to the political power of big money should be on the demonstrators’ side.
solemole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2011, 09:21 AM   #99
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
2861U2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: watching the Cubs
Posts: 4,257
Local Time: 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
what do YOU think?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solemole View Post
What are you talking about? ... Have you read Krugman's 3rd paragraph in that article?
He refers multiple times to the "financial crisis." He sure doesn't sound like he's rejecting the idea that there's a crisis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
They weren't until your guy stepped in.
PolitiFact Wisconsin | Gov. Jim Doyle says Wisconsin's projected budget shortfall is $1.5 billion, much lower than previously projected

It’s a familiar scenario when it comes to the politics around government budgets.

New to office? Puff up the size of the deficit you inherited, so you look like a hero tackling the problem.

Running for re-election or riding off into retirement? Push those numbers as low as you can, so the citizenry doesn’t hold you responsible for it -- and let the next guy deal with all the fallout.

Eight years ago, it was incoming Gov. Jim Doyle, a Democrat, complaining that outgoing Republican Scott McCallum had made the state budget picture a little too rosy. Now Doyle, who did not to seek a third term, has issued his administration’s official budget statement.

It showed a deficit as low as $1.5 billion.

That’s a far, far cry from the $2.7 billion or so deficit bandied about during the November election, won by Republican Scott Walker. And Doyle is facing a hailstorm of criticism from Republicans for playing the how-low-can-you-go game.

"Even on his way out, Jim Doyle continues to use Madison math to manipulate budget numbers," soon-to-be Assembly Speaker Jeff Fitzgerald said after the Nov. 19, 2010 announcement.

Of course, Doyle’s top administrators are fighting back. They say Walker and his fellow Republicans are hypocritically inflating the deficit number to more than $3.3 billion.

Let’s dig into the numbers, with a focus on those issued by Doyle’s administration because they are the official ones.

Having a realistic number is important. The deficit -- and what Walker and the new Republican-controlled Legislature do about it -- could affect everything from school spending levels to government jobs, tax rates and the state’s safety net for the poor.

At the center of the issue is the statutorily required biennial report by the state Department of Administration. That report, dated Nov. 19, projected the two-year budget shortfall at $1.5 billion by June 2013, with the caveat it could be $2.2 billion if two key assumptions went awry.

That number was much lower than the $2.7 billion estimate in July by the state’s Legislative Fiscal Bureau. But lay that aside. While useful for an overall feel of fiscal condition, the Fiscal Bureau report measures an entirely different number than the new document.

So let’s look at how Doyle’s accounting squares with reality.

First of all, the deficit projection is just that -- a best guess based mainly on predicted tax collections vs. the amount state agencies say they need to operate.

State law says the deficit report should not include the recommendations by the governor, in this case the incoming Walker. Those recommendations are supposed to come later, during budget time. As such, the report is meant to strictly be a measure of the best estimate today of where things stand for the next two budget years.

But Doyle’s administrators put his stamp squarely on it, "reducing" the deficit by $800 million -- even before the $700 million in iffy assumptions are factored in.

Doyle did so by assuming Walker would continue several cost-saving measures Doyle used to balance the last two-year budget. Those measures included furloughs, a roll-back of a 2 percent pay raise and across-the-board spending cuts.

Asked about this approach, Department of Administration spokeswoman Emily Winecke told PolitiFact Wisconsin: "Because Governor-elect Walker has repeatedly supported these measures, we did not feel they needed to be added as a likely additional cost."

To be sure, a governor has authority on his own to enact many of the personnel and spending cuts. And Walker, as county executive, used furloughs and similar moves to balance the Milwaukee County budget.

But Doyle will be gone long before the budget is introduced.

An independent researcher who has studied the deficit, University of Wisconsin-Madison economist Andrew Reschovsky, said the DOA report obscured the real size of the problem by incorporating solutions into the mix -- solutions that Walker may or may not pursue.

"You have to go back to the status quo -- before furloughs -- to see what the magnitude of the problem is," Reschovsky said.

Reschovsky issued his own estimate in September pegging the deficit at $3.1 billion, though he says it would be under $3 billion if he did it today.

Todd Berry, president of the Wisconsin Taxpayers Alliance, said it was unusual for an administration to carry over previous cost savings when calculating a future deficit.

Indeed, if one were to assume enough cost savings, a deficit could become a surplus.

There are other problems built into Doyle’s report:

* It counts on $528 million in additional federal Medicaid payments. But that assumes Congress and the president will extend help they first granted in the 2009 stimulus action. That’s iffy, as the report itself notes.

* Another $200 million hanging over the state’s head was not accounted for at all -- the likely repayment of a transfer from the state’s patient compensation fund that was invalidated by the courts.

* Still another $300 million in "savings" came from unspecified cuts in the Department of Health Services. DOA argues the agency found efficiencies in the last budget equalling hundreds of millions of dollars in a budget of over $5 billion.

What’s the bottom line?

Even Department of Administration Secretary Daniel Schooff, who signed the deficit report, says $2.2 billion -- not $1.5 billion -- is the best starting point because the Medicaid and patient fund monies likely will fall to the state to cover.

Doyle’s side argues the deficit reports always have reflected some decision-making by the incumbent governor, even when he’s leaving office.

State agencies, for instance, often are instructed to come in with zero percent increases in state general funds. Doyle did that this time around. Doyle’s camp argues that his incorporation of various yet-to-be-approved cuts -- not just freezes -- is an extension of that approach.

"The real ‘Madison math’ is the assumption that state agency budgets can only go up and not down," Schooff said in a statement to PolitiFact Wisconsin.

In fact, Berry of Wisconsin Taxpayers Alliance was faulting Doyle just two years ago for using inflated agency requests to pump up the size of a predicted deficit. Now Doyle is under attack in part because his agency requests are too slim.

But the scenario here is different: It is one thing to assume changes when you wrote the current budget and will be creating the new one. It’s another to presume your successor and others -- in this case, Congress -- will do certain things.

Where does that leave us?

With less than two months left in the term, Gov. Jim Doyle’s administration department released a report showing a $1.5 billion deficit for the next two-year budget cycle. Although that number is official, the agency’s chief -- noting caveats included in the report -- almost immediately began portraying the actual deficit as closer to $2.2 billion.

In constructing the official number, the report makes an $800 million assumption -- it counts as continued savings cuts that are really decisions for the new governor. It also counts on an iffy $500 million in federal cash and skates over $200 million the courts say the state owes to one of its funds.

Here’s our official rating: False.
2861U2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2011, 09:56 AM   #100
has a
 
kramwest1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Not a toliet wall
Posts: 6,939
Local Time: 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
it's even more political than that. the unions are the *only* effective Democratic GOTV machine they have -- if you bust the unions, the political windfall for the GOP will be enormous.

that's what this is about at it's core.
It was stunning to listen to the radio (NPR) yesterday and hear local politicians in WI and OH whine about the political monetary power of unions.

Rich companies' and business associations' monetary power anyone???

If money in politics is the issue, let's DO something about it.
Rights are for citizens, not corporations and associations.
__________________

__________________
Bread & Circuses
kramwest1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×