Today in Wisconsin students rise up and protest!

[PhilsFan]

CHlNA!

[Jeannieco]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

CHlNA!

Win! LOL!!

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by deep

I imagine that Virginia is able to get public employees by competing with private sector offerings

i can't speak too much about VA itself, like i said, much of it is foreign to me.

i will say that the federal government is able to attract competitive workers away from, say, highly regarded consulting firms like Booze through their various incentives like pensions and good retirement plans. what you sacrifice in monetary performance -- government workers are paid according to their "level," not how well they've done -- you make up for in job security. like, we could get a great mortgage right now because Memphis is a fed. his job is *that* secure. and that's how they get people away from big-deal private sector jobs. also, people think that government work will be much easier, which might have been true in the past, but not anymore.

[Moonlit_Angel]

Irvine, I've heard the stories about the social laws in Virginia and the Attorney General of that state, yeah. Freakin' nutcase, that guy.

Originally Posted by maycocksean

NPR has summed this up nicely in reports over the past few days:

"Americans want more government than they are willing to pay for."

People are eager to cut spending, as long as it somebody else whose benefits get cut.

I saw that article on the website the other day. Spot on, oh-so-true. I wish it could be sent out to every single person in the country and they could be forced to read it until the words sank in.

Originally Posted by maycocksean

When the Tea Party types start refusing their social security checks and declining Medicare or Medicaid benefits in favor of paying for their health care themselves, well, then I suppose I'll have to respect their position. In the meantime I must conclude they are full of shit hypocrites.

Originally Posted by BVS

And when they stop wanting to vote for canidates that will waste money on social and "moral" issues, remain constitutionally consistent with the wars they support, and actually understand the current systems they champion...

So in otherwords it will be a long time before they gain anyone's respect outside of their uninformed bubbles.

These are my thoughts completely . Well said, you guys.

Originally Posted by financeguy

I have made the point before, and I stand by it, that the middle and working classes class are being screwed by the welfare class below and the oligarchy scum on top. Both these classes are parasites.

I would hesitate a little to go after the welfare class. While I certainly don't deny there are people who abuse such things and must be stopped, at the same time, what with my family having been fairly close to being part of that class, and knowing people who are, I can sympathize more with them.

But the other part, yes, agreed. I mean, this...

To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January.

...is just insane. If somebody is going to do that, then I want them to shut the fuck up about wasteful spending.

Angela

[kramwest1]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

When the Tea Party types start refusing their social security checks and declining Medicare or Medicaid benefits in favor of paying for their health care themselves, well, then I suppose I'll have to respect their position. In the meantime I must conclude they are full of shit hypocrites.

Lord, do I love Anthony Weiner:

YouTube - Weiner Calls On Republicans to Defund Their Health Care Plans

Defund your own healthcare hypocrites!

[Jeannieco]

I am sure you sports fans out there know that the Green Bay Packers are the last NFL team not corporately owned.
Check this out! Love it!

WI House Dems Warn Gov. Walker Not To Cross NFL Packers | TPMMuckraker

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by kramwest1

Lord, do I love Anthony Weiner:

Defund your own healthcare hypocrites!

Anthony Weiner rules . I wish more members of Congress could be like him.

I particularly liked the part about how many uninsured are also full-time workers. I think the sooner people stopped assuming that those of us who are struggling are doing so simply out of laziness, the better. Again, yes, no question there's people who abuse the government help and aid, but NOT EVERYONE IS LIKE THAT. Hell, some of them refuse to take the aid for the longest time out of a sense of pride, and only wind up turning to it because they have absolutely no other options, and they and their families are fucked if they don't take it.

Angela

[Golightly Grrl]

Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel

Anthony Weiner rules . I wish more members of Congress could be like him.

I particularly liked the part about how many uninsured are also full-time workers. I think the sooner people stopped assuming that those of us who are struggling are doing so simply out of laziness, the better. Again, yes, no question there's people who abuse the government help and aid, but NOT EVERYONE IS LIKE THAT. Hell, some of them refuse to take the aid for the longest time out of a sense of pride, and only wind up turning to it because they have absolutely no other options, and they and their families are fucked if they don't take it.

Angela

Thank you so much, Angela. There is so much hatred out there for the poor, the struggling, the unemployed, the underemployed and just regular working folks.

I'm going through a rough time right now. I can't even get a temp job, not to mention long-term employment. It's very frustrating and it chips away at my self-esteem every single day. I am college educated, have worked since I was a teen-ager and I am a published writer. I give back to my community. I've never been in trouble with the law other than a traffic ticket. But to some of the right-wing bloggers and pundits out there, I'm a slacker, a loser. I need to pick myself up by my boot straps. I'm probably stupid and lazy. It's horrible.

Yet, these same bloggers and pundits never call out people like Bernie Madoff, CEOs who sink a company and still get huge bonuses, the outsourcing of good jobs to India and any other corporate malfeasance. But fall on hard times and need food stamps, and you get totally shit on!

Oh, and do any of you like your week-ends off? Thank Wisconsin.
Rachel Maddow Show

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by Golightly Grrl

Thank you so much, Angela. There is so much hatred out there for the poor, the struggling, the unemployed, the underemployed and just regular working folks.

Hatred, I dunno-in some cases, certainly. But I also think some of it is just a lack of true understanding. If you've never had to struggle, if you're sitting pretty, it's hard to really understand what it's like to decide between rent and food, or medical bills and rent, or whatever. I'm not saying that excuses the crap that people in these classes constantly get as a result, but I think that's a big factor.

Originally Posted by Golightly Grrl

I'm going through a rough time right now. I can't even get a temp job, not to mention long-term employment. It's very frustrating and it chips away at my self-esteem every single day. I am college educated, have worked since I was a teen-ager and I am a published writer. I give back to my community. I've never been in trouble with the law other than a traffic ticket. But to some of the right-wing bloggers and pundits out there, I'm a slacker, a loser. I need to pick myself up by my boot straps. I'm probably stupid and lazy. It's horrible.

I understand this completely. Been there, know people who've been there, all that sort of thing. I can't think of many people out there who want to live this way. It's embarrassing, it's nervewracking, it leads to sleepless nights and constant stress and worry. Who would want to experience that on a daily basis?

I am all for self-sufficiency and people just forging ahead on their own. If you can manage to do that, fantastic. We just rolled with our situation as well as we could and improvised and made do with what we had.

But it's easier said than done sometimes, this "pick yourself up" mentality, people. And besides that, I dunno, I just figure, if you can help some way, you should do so, simply because it's the decent human thing to do.

Originally Posted by Golightly Grrl

Yet, these same bloggers and pundits never call out people like Bernie Madoff, CEOs who sink a company and still get huge bonuses, the outsourcing of good jobs to India and any other corporate malfeasance. But fall on hard times and need food stamps, and you get totally shit on!

Heh, eh, well, to be fair, I think Madoff has overall gotten his pretty good kicking. Perhaps not from those people you mentioned, no, and that wouldn't be surprising, but most people agree he's right where he deserves to be.

But fully agreed otherwise, it's absolutely maddening to see incompetence and sheer greed getting rewarded. That's another thing, too, how are we supposed to believe hard work and pulling yourself up brings any good rewards when it seems the only people being rewarded are the ones who don't get their riches that way? My parents have worked their asses off their entire lives, but they're not rich, yet the CEOs of some of these big corporations that are flailing are getting bonuses. Something is severely fucked up with that picture and it needs to stop. NOW.

And it's not like I want to be a millionaire or anything, 'cause quite frankly, I don't. This past year, all I wanted was to just be able to live a life where we weren't sitting here deciding whether to pay for one basic necessity or another. I think everyone deserves at least that. I don't think that's too much to ask for, is it?

I hope things get better for you soon. I do. They've been slowly, ever so slowly starting to look up here in recent months, and I hope you get to see your fortunes change, too. They will, I believe they will .

Anywho, ending rant now, just wanted to share these couple things I found online today in relation to this:

Some interesting questions in this first link, should provoke a bit of discussion, I'd think:
Wisconsin Budget Gap: Blame Politicians or Teachers' Unions? - TIME

And guess who else decides to weigh in on the issue?:
The Page by Mark Halperin | Palin to WI Workers: Don’t “Kowtow to the Union Bosses”

Angela

[Jeannieco]

I found a great vid montage the students made to the music of the great Arcade Fire! Inspiring!
Wisconsin Budget Repair Bill Protest on Vimeo

Also saw some great tweets today on Twitter but first check out this twitpic someone posted from Egypt! Wow. Incredible huh?
http://twitpic.com/419nfm

Tweets I saw today:
"Please bring your red pens tomorrow to correct the Tea Partiers' signs"

"CONFIRMED: Further violence in WI Capitol.A woman just entered hallway, unsolicited, and gave us all homemade cookies!!"

So the teaparty is saying they had to work all week and couldn't protest unions until the weekend... will the irony never end?"

"If you are enjoying your weekend,paid vacations, breaks, thank the unions people died for... these rights."

"If Fox News were around in 1776, they would have sided with the British"

"MPD police estimated over 100,000 gathered today. Not a single arrest. No thugs here. Move along!"

fav sign "In Wisconsin we drink BEER not TEA" oh yeah

[2861U2]

Originally Posted by Jeannieco

Incredible huh?

Let me ask you, since you seem so giddy about all of this:

You're fine with teachers lying and calling in sick instead of actually putting the kids first and teaching them?
You're fine with doctors on the scene lying and handing out phony sick notes?
You're fine with the complete trashing and shameful lack of respect for the Capitol property (the utter opposite of how the Tea Party leaves its places of protest)?
You're fine with the Hitler signs and crosshairs being waved around so proudly by these people (assuming you'd be eager to denounce them if the roles were reversed)?

Originally Posted by Jeannieco

Please bring your red pens tomorrow to correct the Tea Partiers' signs

Oh wow...

[corianderstem]

To break up this round of "Oh yeah??? Well YOUR side does THIS!", I give you this:

City of Madison News Release

SATURDAY'S CAPITOL SQUARE DEMONSTRATIONS
Law Enforcement Praises Protesters' Conduct

On behalf of all the law enforcement agencies that helped keep the peace on the Capitol Square Saturday, a very sincere thank you to all of those who showed up to exercise their First Amendment rights. You conducted yourselves with great decorum and civility, and if the eyes of the nation were upon Wisconsin, then you have shown how democracy can flourish even amongst those who passionately disagree. As of 5:00 p.m., no major incidents had been reported. There have been no arrests. However, discourse and discussion was - at times - loud and heated. That was to be expected. As previously indicated, the goal of law enforcement has been to provide a safe environment for democracy to take place. That goal has been realized for yet another day.

[financeguy]

Originally Posted by 2861U2

Let me ask you, since you seem so giddy about all of this:

You're fine with teachers lying and calling in sick instead of actually putting the kids first and teaching them?
You're fine with doctors on the scene lying and handing out phony sick notes?
You're fine with the complete trashing and shameful lack of respect for the Capitol property (the utter opposite of how the Tea Party leaves its places of protest)?
You're fine with the Hitler signs and crosshairs being waved around so proudly by these people (assuming you'd be eager to denounce them if the roles were reversed)?



Oh wow...

You're either a trust fund college kid with too much time on your hands, or you're thick stupid.

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by 2861U2

You're fine with the Hitler signs and crosshairs being waved around so proudly by these people (assuming you'd be eager to denounce them if the roles were reversed)?

I think everyone has made it perfectly clear that there is stupidity on both sides and that those comparisons are moronic either way. Our issue is more about the overabundance of them on one side vs. another.

However, to reiterate:

Nazi/Hitler comparison and weaponry-related signs are stupid, baseless, ill informed, pathetic, and annoying no matter who is making them.

There. Satisfied now?

Angela

[yolland]

Originally Posted by financeguy

...or you're thick stupid.

Personal attacks aren't called for.

[2861U2]

Originally Posted by financeguy

You're either a trust fund college kid with too much time on your hands, or you're thick stupid.

Whoa. I'm certainly not the former and I'd like to think I'm not the latter, either. Feel free to elaborate. I'd love to know how you reached either of those conclusions based on what I posted.

Originally Posted by corianderstem

SATURDAY'S CAPITOL SQUARE DEMONSTRATIONS
Law Enforcement Praises Protesters' Conduct

On behalf of all the law enforcement agencies that helped keep the peace on the Capitol Square Saturday, a very sincere thank you to all of those who showed up to exercise their First Amendment rights. You conducted yourselves with great decorum and civility, and if the eyes of the nation were upon Wisconsin, then you have shown how democracy can flourish even amongst those who passionately disagree. As of 5:00 p.m., no major incidents had been reported. There have been no arrests. However, discourse and discussion was - at times - loud and heated. That was to be expected. As previously indicated, the goal of law enforcement has been to provide a safe environment for democracy to take place. That goal has been realized for yet another day.

Ok, that's great. Really, it is. Though not to nit-pick, there was this incident yesterday:

YouTube - Madison police detain union operative who tried to destroy Tea Party sound system

"Police would not release the name of the man, or any more details, but eyewitnesses told The Daily Caller he ripped the wiring out of several different speaker systems. Part of the sound system went out for about five minutes. When a Tea Partier, Luke Bacher, confronted the man ripping the speaker wiring out, Bacher said the man physically assaulted him. That caused police to get involved and detain the union operative. Bacher was near the sound system when a man in his late 20s came over and just started yanking out wires. When Bacher attempted to put the wires back into the sound system, the man pushed Bacher back and started getting violent in his shoving as if trying to provoke a physical confrontation."

I'm more than willing to try to focus on the whole on the group's message, but there comes a point when that effort is made greatly difficult by the outrageous signs, tampering with equipment, leaving signs and trash all over the ground, teachers pretending to be sick, people in the crowd saying that this bill will cause people to commit suicide, etc.

It's stuff like this that makes me lose faith that we'll ever fix our debt. If people get so upset over such minuscule cutbacks, imagine the pushback when the necessary addressing of entitlements comes. These people don't care about the debt. They care about them.

[Canadiens1131]

Originally Posted by 2861U2

It's stuff like this that makes me lose faith that we'll ever fix our debt. If people get so upset over such minuscule cutbacks, imagine the pushback when the necessary addressing of entitlements comes. These people don't care about the debt. They care about them.

They'll be political hell to pay once Social Security inevitably comes to the table. The Democrats and Republicans are all just posturing and pandering with the current cuts, politics aside. It's just drops in the bucket.

The Republicans have the power now, and are using it to distort the budget crisis into a reason for pushing their social policies (see Planned Parenthood). Real cutbacks on entitlements like Social Security threaten political careers, which is why no one wants to be the one to take the hit.

Cowardly Democratic congressmen trying to protect their political careers was a major reason the healthcare legislation was muddled. Maybe you can thank them in the long run, though, because if they had actually not been chickenshit there would have been a "true" socialized, public option in the reform.

These people don't care about the debt. They care about them

The same can be said about just about every politician in Washington.

[corianderstem]

I've seen this floating around my Facebook feed, and haven't yet seen any rebuttal or clarification or explanation from the other side. Does anyone know if what this representative says is true?

If it is, then no wonder people are so angry. Didn't many republicans argue that there wasn't enough time to read and discuss the bill for health care? How is this different?

YouTube - Representative Gordon Hintz on the "Budget repair bill"

[Jeannieco]

Let me ask you, since you seem so giddy about all of this:

You're fine with teachers lying and calling in sick instead of actually putting the kids first and teaching them?
You're fine with doctors on the scene lying and handing out phony sick notes?
You're fine with the complete trashing and shameful lack of respect for the Capitol property (the utter opposite of how the Tea Party leaves its places of protest)?
You're fine with the Hitler signs and crosshairs being waved around so proudly by these people (assuming you'd be eager to denounce them if the roles were reversed)?

Here we go again. This is not going to go anywhere. Nothing I can say is going to open your eyes. It's about your ideology, not about signs and trampling the state house grounds.

Let me say this. You have no idea where I am coming from. I am a daughter of a well respected teacher, and I was born and raised in a third world country.

I saw first hand what dictatorship and lack of collective bargaining, fair and honest elections does to a country. In other words, what it is like not to have a voice and few if any rights as a laborer under the law. This fight in Wisconsin is not about money, it's about the RIGHT to collective bargaining, the big picture and it affects every single working person in this nation.

My Grandparents also fought hard in 30's for workers rights. My grandmother worked in a sweatshop and almost lost her life. Unions were created to protect people like her.
Karl Rove and Koch brothers modus operandi has been to systematically destroy the labor unions one by one. This is just one more niche in the belt for them. If they can destroy the last large group that predominately votes democratic especially in Wisconsin, they will be closer to achieving that goal.
Do you like you paid vacations, lunch breaks and 40 hr work weeks? Thank the unions. Are there thugs in unions? I am sure there are. But to throw the baby out with the bath water is not the answer my friend. So pardon my "giddiness" as you say, when I see hard working people finally fighting back against the larger picture of what is REALLY happening, something you won't hear on Fox.

Also, one more antedote slightly off topic. When I first moved to the states at the age of 19 and entered the work force in a very conservative town, I noticed something very peculiar. It seemed that most of the long time residents could do nothing but complain about how things worked civically. Especially the US Postal Service. Everyday I would come home from work and be flabbergasted that people would complian about things, the mail service being one of many. My take was totally different. I was in a perpetual state of awe living in the states finally and grateful for so many wonderful things, like the MAIL and police and fire departments who actually responded to calls for help!!

Coming from the 3rd world you were LUCKY to even get your mail. If you did, you can be sure that it was opened and read at least 3 times before you got it weeks and weeks later.

I have witnessed first hand what the lack of workers rights looks like. I don't want my country going down that path. When I see teachers standing along side fire fighters bringing the daily grind to a screeching halt to get the attention of apathetic Americans , I say bravo!
They are fighting the good fight for you and me, and standing up for our rights!

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by 2861U2

Let me ask you, since you seem so giddy about all of this:

You're fine with teachers lying and calling in sick instead of actually putting the kids first and teaching them?
You're fine with doctors on the scene lying and handing out phony sick notes?
You're fine with the complete trashing and shameful lack of respect for the Capitol property (the utter opposite of how the Tea Party leaves its places of protest)?
You're fine with the Hitler signs and crosshairs being waved around so proudly by these people (assuming you'd be eager to denounce them if the roles were reversed)?

Nope.

But we sure as shit are fine with the vast majority of people who aren't doing this.