Tipping Point - Sexual Harassment In America

[Nick66]

With regard to "false rape" claims, it's instructive to remember that not every unprovable, or unsupported claim of sexual assault is a false one, or that every claim of sexual assault that legally isn't is the result of malicious or irresponsible intent. Though obviously some are, and in the most egregious cases there have indeed been consequences (though you're correct that there's typically no legal consequences for it, for a variety of reasons).

There's no evidence that out and out false sexual assault claims make up a sizeable percentage of such claims (between 3-10%, depending on which statistics you believe). Though it certainly does happen, and people who do so should obviously face consequences.

 

[BVS]

I have to wonder why women are generally able to sexually assault men and make false claims that they have been assaulted or worse...without fear of any consequences.

First, what makes you believe these two things exist at any kind of scale that belongs in this conversation?

Secondly, sexual assault perpetrated by women on men is of the smallest percentage. Now harassment is something different, and it does exist, but don’t believe it’s a necessary part of this conversation.

 

[redhill]

I've been sexually assaulted twice and there was really nothing I could do about it unless I wanted to *really* push the issue.

I was at a nightclub once and a stranger sat on my lap, grabbed my crotch, and kissed me. It so happened that she was overweight which made it additionally uncomfortable to have her on my lap (and the only reason I mention it). I asked her to get off of me and then she kept making advances. I didn't press the issue other than to ask the bouncer to keep her away from me. He said "take her home and f*ck her, man".

Another time I was walking into a bar and a stranger grabbed my crotch in the entranceway. She grazed me in a painful way (guys know what I'm talking about) and I had to leave the situation. There was really nothing I could do during that encounter either. I could have made a fuss (if I had wanted to) but I doubt anything would have come of it.

I certainly understand how behavior changes when drinking so I let those situations lie but the double standard has always been a source of irritation since. These events happened in my younger years when I was going out regularly. I also understand that the more you put yourself in certain situations, the greater the propensity for such incidents to occur. That doesn't justify the aforementioned actions, though.

I've also known a couple of girls who thought it was amusing (and confided in me about it) to make false claims about their ex having raped them because they were scorned. These guys reputations were ruined around town and I knew the truth.

I feel most comfortable speaking from personal experience as opposed to commenting on celebrity hearsay...and from what I've seen there is a horrifying double standard that gets very little airplay. The fact that the issue is discussed in mostly one-sided fashion reduces credibility and I really think we need to be talking about the whole picture.

I'm not writing this to diminish (even one iota) what female victims experience when there is an actual assault (or worse).

Based on what I've seen, however, I have to say that women have incredible power to make false claims and get away with assault. I hate to be "that guy" but someone has to say it.

 

[Nick66]

I've been sexually assaulted twice and there was really nothing I could do about it unless I wanted to *really* push the issue.

I'm sorry for what happened to you. No one should have to tolerate sexual assault, and it should never be made light of, despite the gender of the victim.

I was at a nightclub once and a stranger sat on my lap, grabbed my crotch, and kissed me. It so happened that she was overweight which made it additionally uncomfortable to have her on my lap (and the only reason I mention it). I asked her to get off of me and then she kept making advances. I didn't press the issue other than to ask the bouncer to keep her away from me. He said "take her home and f*ck her, man".

Another time I was walking into a bar and a stranger grabbed my crotch in the entranceway. She grazed me in a painful way (guys know what I'm talking about) and I had to leave the situation. There was really nothing I could do during that encounter either. I could have made a fuss (if I had wanted to) but I doubt anything would have come of it.

I certainly understand how behavior changes when drinking so I let those situations lie but the double standard has always been a source of irritation since. These events happened in my younger years when I was going out regularly.

Again, what happened to you here is completely unacceptable. That the people who assaulted you may have been drinking is absolutely no excuse.

But I'm going to be frank with you...what you're describing would not be prosecuted in most jurisdictions, even if we were a woman. I'm not saying such cases never result in an arrest, but it's very, very rare that such a case would actually be prosecuted, for a variety of reasons.

And in any event, as you said, you never reported either incident to the police, so it's hard to say what would have happened had you did (though I have a pretty good idea).

I've also known a couple of girls who thought it was amusing (and confided in me about it) to make false claims about their ex having raped them because they were scorned. These guys reputations were ruined around town and I knew the truth.

Yes, it happens. Human beings can do awful, vengeful things, and women are no exception. But it's rare.

I feel most comfortable speaking from personal experience as opposed to commenting on celebrity hearsay...and from what I've seen there is a horrifying double standard that gets very little airplay. The fact that the issue is discussed in mostly one-sided fashion reduces credibility and I really think we need to be talking about the whole picture.

I'm not writing this to diminish (even one iota) what female victims experience when there is an actual assault. Based on what I've seen, however, I have to say that women have incredible power to make false claims and get away with assault.

There is definitely a double standard when it comes to male victims of sexual assault, there's no doubt about that. Partially because of gender stereotypes, partially because most victims of sexual assault are women. Doesn't excuse it, but there it is.

 

[redhill]

First, what makes you believe these two things exist at any kind of scale that belongs in this conversation?

Secondly, sexual assault perpetrated by women on men is of the smallest percentage. Now harassment is something different, and it does exist, but don’t believe it’s a necessary part of this conversation.

How do you know? If there is very little recourse for a man, it happens a lot more than we know about.

Yes, this issue belongs in the conversation and thinking otherwise makes you part of the problem.

 

[redhill]

I'm sorry for what happened to you. No one should have to tolerate sexual assault, and it should never be made light of, despite the gender of the victim.



Again, what happened to you here is completely unacceptable. That the people who assaulted you may have been drinking is absolutely no excuse.

But I'm going to be frank with you...what you're describing would not be prosecuted in most jurisdictions, even if we were a woman. I'm not saying such cases never result in an arrest, but it's very, very rare that such a case would actually be prosecuted, for a variety of reasons.

And in any event, as you said, you never reported either incident to the police, so it's hard to say what would have happened had you did (though I have a pretty good idea).



Yes, it happens. Human beings can do awful, vengeful things, and women are no exception. But it's rare.



There is definitely a double standard when it comes to male victims of sexual assault, there's no doubt about that. Partially because of gender stereotypes, partially because most victims of sexual assault are women. Doesn't excuse it, but there it is.

I appreciate the reasonable and understanding reply.

 

[BVS]

How do you know? If there is very little recourse for a man, it happens a lot more than we know about.

I know it happens, I posted a story similar to yours awhile back. But apply the same logic, how many stories of women being groped in a bar go unreported? It’s still a very small percentage.

 

[redhill]

I know it happens, I posted a story similar to yours awhile back. But apply the same logic, how many stories of women being groped in a bar go unreported? It’s still a very small percentage.

The reality is that we have no way of knowing. I would guess, based on my experiences, that it's a very high percentage for men.

For the record, I'm not complaining about these experiences or trying to paint a "woe is me" picture. I'm simply recalling some events and expressing how that has impacted my thoughts about this issue and the double standard that exists.

 

[BVS]

Yes, this issue belongs in the conversation and thinking otherwise makes you part of the problem.

How does it make me part of the problem?

I think the conversation should be had, but I don’t think they are the same, I think you’re convoluted the issue by trying to equate the two.

Grabbing a stranger in a bar:

With men vs women it’s often about power and intimidation
With women vs men it can be about power, but I also think it can be about believing that we want them to be more aggressive, or a reaction to being groped themselves on a regular basis.

So I think we do an injustice by trying to make them the same when one is more than not a result of the other.

 

[BVS]

The reality is that we have no way of knowing. I would guess, based on my experiences, that it's a very high percentage for men.

For the record, I'm not complaining about these experiences or trying to paint a "woe is me" picture. I'm simply recalling some events and expressing how that has impacted my thoughts about this issue and the double standard that exists.

So you think it’s as high for men as women?

There’s a double standard, but mostly applied by men, I mean look at the bouncer’s response to your situation. That’s why trying to equate these is dangerous.

 

[Nick66]

How does it make me part of the problem?

I think the conversation should be had, but I don’t think they are the same, I think you’re convoluted the issue by trying to equate the two.

Grabbing a stranger in a bar:

With men vs women it’s often about power and intimidation
With women vs men it can be about power, but I also think it can be about believing that we want them to be more aggressive, or a reaction to being groped themselves on a regular basis.

So I think we do an injustice by trying to make them the same when one is more than not a result of the other.

That's some pretty convoluted thinking there.

What's going on in someone's mind doesn't matter, what matters is what they do. Sexual assault is sexual assault, no matter the motivation or what you're thinking when you do it, or you social conditioning, irrespective of the genders of the people involved.

The "injustice" is suggesting that they're not the same. It doesn't happen to men as often as it does to women, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken just as seriously when it does.

 

[redhill]

How does it make me part of the problem?

I think the conversation should be had, but I don’t think they are the same, I think you’re convoluted the issue by trying to equate the two.

Grabbing a stranger in a bar:

With men vs women it’s often about power and intimidation
With women vs men it can be about power, but I also think it can be about believing that we want them to be more aggressive, or a reaction to being groped themselves on a regular basis.

So I think we do an injustice by trying to make them the same when one is more than not a result of the other.

If we want equality, then why shouldn't they be equated? I thought equality was the goal.

Also, how do you know what it's about?

In the first instance I mentioned, my take was that she was drunk and knew she could get away with it. It seemed a bit of a power play based on her actions and general behavior.

In the second instance I mentioned, she was drunk, seemed horny, and thought it was OK.

It wasn't. Regardless of speculation of what was going on in their minds, it doesn't change the fact that what happened was wrong.

Also, why are you always one of the ones to step in and disagree with people? I think you need to choose your battles more carefully as otherwise, you wind up being the boy who cries wolf.

 

[BVS]

That's some pretty convoluted thinking there.

What's going on in someone's mind doesn't matter, what matters is what they do. Sexual assault is sexual assault, no matter the motivation or what you're thinking when you do it, or you social conditioning, irrespective of the genders of the people involved.

The "injustice" is suggesting that they're not the same. It doesn't happen to men as often as it does to women, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken just as seriously when it does.

I’m not speaking to if it’s assault or not, nor am I making excuses for any side, nor am I saying it shouldn’t be taken seriously, I’m just talking to the point that they don’t belong in the same conversation.

 

[Irvine511]

If we want equality, then why shouldn't they be equated? I thought equality was the goal.

Also, how do you know what it's about?

In the first instance I mentioned, my take was that she was drunk and knew she could get away with it. It seemed a bit of a power play based on her actions and general behavior.

In the second instance I mentioned, she was drunk, seemed horny, and thought it was OK.

It wasn't. Regardless of speculation of what was going on in their minds, it doesn't change the fact that what happened was wrong.

Also, why are you always one of the ones to step in and disagree with people? I think you need to choose your battles more carefully as otherwise, you wind up being the boy who cries wolf.

Redhill: at any point, were you worried that these women would/could possibly rape and murder you?

 

[Nick66]

Redhill: at any point, were you worried that these women would/could possibly rape and murder you?

Before he answers, can I just ask what that would have to do with whether he was assaulted or not?

Would a woman need to feel like she could be raped or murdered for her assault to be valid?

 

[redhill]

Redhill: at any point, were you worried that these women would/could possibly rape and murder you?

What a ridiculous and nonsensical question. What about my post suggests that I was elevating those events to such a level? I think I know what you're getting at...and I hope it's not as sad a line of reasoning as I fear.

 

[BVS]

Also, why are you always one of the ones to step in and disagree with people? I think you need to choose your battles more carefully as otherwise, you wind up being the boy who cries wolf.

If that’s what you think is going on here, then you’re sadly mistaken.

How can I be crying wolf?

 

[BVS]

If we want equality, then why shouldn't they be equated? I thought equality was the goal.

One has an institutionalized and societal aspect to it, the other doesn’t.

Yes, assault is assault, but that’s not the entirety of the conversation we’re having.

 

[anitram]

If we want equality, then why shouldn't they be equated? I thought equality was the goal.

There aren’t enough :roll eyes: in the world for this.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

which bits do you mean? i am talking from my own experience here, and general knowledge of the country and its laws...

we've had some pretty black and white experiences here - our neighbour was actually prosecuted for racial abuse, just words - we had no clue it was an offence at the time as it was the kind of thing we were used to in the UK, but the police decided to prosecute... that was pretty eye-opening, hence learning about insults and what is/isn't permitted in terms of freedom of speech etc... in fact, the guy actually hit another neighbour with his car wing mirror during the incident, only the police didn't pursue the physical assault, but only the verbal abuse, which was antisemitic and racist language to a non-Jewish person... so it was all pretty fascinating to see how serious they take verbal abuse and antisemitism here!

thanks for accusing me of lying though, i mean, wow

I didn't accuse of you lying. I told you that you were wrong. Hate speech is a crime in the US. Hate crimes do get prosecuted. Much like in the US, people in France are still generally more liberal in urbanized centers, and more conservative in suburban and rural populations.

What I was really calling you out on, though, was when you made mention of students and grants and what have you. You painted a picture based upon your own experience that there's a family element in France that contributes to 18+ students that is nonexistent in the U.K. and US. Under what premise can you make such a statement? I've attended universities in all three locations. I'm also a 25 year old who was financially supported by family until age 23, and only chose to take loans to lessen the burden on my family to continue schooling. You seem to have depicted a false picture here.

Greek life in the US has a bad reputation. Rightfully so, with the general behavior of hazing, disorderly conduct, and mistreatment of women. You see it in films, and there's something quintessentially American about those fraternities. It has an awful reputation in the U.K., and it has an awful reputation in France. However, guess what? They do the exact same shit over there. They just call it something else. Sports clubs in the UK quite literally participate in the same awful behaviors, they just aren't branded in a movie-like culture. The same behaviors were clearly present with the band at that university. Only in a frat party would I ever imagine someone putting their testicles on a girl passed out drunk and taking a picture.

Your notion that french culture is more progressive or more respectful to what's right is bullshit. From nights out, I can tell you that I felt like I was in the US when I went to a bar and the employees were all attractive slim women with big boobs and practically no clothes worth of a uniform. And clearly all around the bar, women were the objects and men were running the show.

meh, it also helps to speak the actual LANGUAGE (as i know you don't) if you want to have insight into a country, especially before completely dismissing someone who is completely bilingual (despite apparently having a Jane Birkin accent ) and who has spent more than half their life living and working in the country over the years, studied the language in-depth, specialised in French history, French foreign policy, international relations, French philosophy, blah blah and is fully integrated into French society (oh and who also bears grudges)

And clearly you've developed into french society (for shunning me for not speaking the language on a two month stay - forgive me). And clearly you have a french bias.

But bottom line, there are the haves, and there are the have nots. Western society is a lot more homogenous than you're agreeing to.

 

[Irvine511]

What a ridiculous and nonsensical question. What about my post suggests that I was elevating those events to such a level? I think I know what you're getting at...and I hope it's not as sad a line of reasoning as I fear.

What I’m getting at is that women live in a more dangerous world than most men can imagine. Once above a certain income level, nearly all violence and murder directed at women is at the hands of an intimate partner. Men do not live and conduct and negotiate their lives under similar duress.

This does not negate what you felt was sexual assault. What it does is add another dimension to a female’s experience of something similar.

 

[Nick66]

Hate speech is a crime in the US..

This is absolutely untrue. There are no "hate speech" laws, at least criminal laws, in the US. And if some legislature tried to pass one, it would quickly be deemed unconstitutional.

Western society is a lot more homogenous than you're agreeing to.

"Western society" is actually among the least homogenous, and most diverse, in the world, depending on how you wish to define homogeneous. But in many places it's really not a melting pot...more like a tossed salad.

Otherwise, I think you make some good points. As much as I agree with many of Mama Cass's comments in this thread, I do think she's painting a slightly rosier picture of France than reflects the situation as i know it. That's not to say it doesn't reflect her personal experiences, and clearly she loves the culture. But from I can see there's a lot of tension there, and a rising anti-immigrant sentiment (like much of Europe). One the whole though I think she's accurate in saying that in many ways it's a more progressive society than the US. Though in other ways, more conservative.

I know a lot of French people who fear that France is losing its identity and culture, and as far as I know it's an ongoing discussion there. But she'd know better than I, I'm in the UK.

 

[redhill]

One has an institutionalized and societal aspect to it, the other doesn’t.

Yes, assault is assault, but that’s not the entirety of the conversation we’re having.

I'm confused. First you indicate that men being assaulted or falsely accused shouldn't be part of the conversation...and now you're indicating that you want to ensure the entire conversation is had?

 

[redhill]

There aren’t enough :roll eyes: in the world for this.

Illuminating.

 

[redhill]

What I’m getting at is that women live in a more dangerous world than most men can imagine. Once above a certain income level, nearly all violence and murder directed at women is at the hands of an intimate partner. Men do not live and conduct and negotiate their lives under similar duress.

On the whole, I agree. I do know a man who was subject to physical aggression by his female partner. With that said, he would push her verbally until even the most composed person might attack. She was ultimately charged with battery after numerous such instances.

This does not negate what you felt was sexual assault. What it does is add another dimension to a female’s experience of something similar.

It's not a feeling. Those instances, legally speaking, are clear examples of sexual assault. There's no gray area or interpretation there. When a stranger comes up to you and unwantedly grabs your genitals on purpose, that's most definitely sexual assault.

 

[Irvine511]

I agree, “felt” was the wrong word to use.

 

[BVS]

I'm confused. First you indicate that men being assaulted or falsely accused shouldn't be part of the conversation...and now you're indicating that you want to ensure the entire conversation is had?

I’m not going to play these games with you, I know you’re smarter than this.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

This is absolutely untrue. There are no "hate speech" laws, at least criminal laws, in the US. And if some legislature tried to pass one, it would quickly be deemed unconstitutional.

Yeah, we are far, far more liberal in a classical sense with free speech laws, but you absolutely go out and incite violence or defame someone etc., and if you do so from a hate perspective, it's a crime. On top of that, countless institutions deal with this sort of thing the American way. Like it or not, it's pretty standard practice to voluntarily fire/expel/suspend/fine workers over hate speech.

"Western society" is actually among the least homogenous, and most diverse, in the world, depending on how you wish to define homogeneous. But in many places it's really not a melting pot...more like a tossed salad.

I was describing the homogeneity as country to country. Overall society in France is similar to the US and the U.K.. Obviously I also also see a clear di/trichotomy of internal society.

 

[anitram]

Illuminating.

As are your MRA-tinged posts.

 

[Nick66]

Yeah, we are far, far more liberal in a classical sense with free speech laws, but you absolutely go out and incite violence or defame someone etc., and if you do so from a hate perspective, it's a crime. On top of that, countless institutions deal with this sort of thing the American way. Like it or not, it's pretty standard practice to voluntarily fire/expel/suspend/fine workers over hate speech..

Defamation is not a crime, it's a civil tort, no matter the motivation. You can't be criminally prosecuted for defamation in America, even if you do it from a "hate perspective."

Again, there are no "hate speech" laws in the US, and there's no "hate speech" exception to the Constitution. In fact it's one of the few things the SCOTUS has pretty much been unanimous on.

There are hate crime enhancements to existing statues, which call for increased penalties for crimes motivated by certain reasons (e.g. racial animus). But it's not the same as a prohibiting "hate speech". In fact, even in crimes with a hate crime enhancement, it's not the speech that enhances the penalty, it's the motivation...the speech can merely be evidence of the hateful motivation. There must be an underlying crime accompanying the hateful motivation, and all the elements of that crime must be met PLUS you must prove hateful motivation (generally, motivated by animus towards someone's sex, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc).

For example, battery is a crime.

If I hit you with a baseball bat, that's battery.

If I hit you with a baseball and I'm motivated by racial animus, that's battery, with a hate crime enhancement (meaning, you could get a harsher sentence). If I call you the N word while I'm beating you, that's evidence that I'm motived by racial animus, but calling you the name in itself doesn't mean it's a hate crime.

But most importantly, if I merely call you the N word without physically attacking you, I haven't committed a crime at all. Because calling someone a hateful word is as protected under the Constitution as engaging in political speech or any other protected speech.

That's all very different than "hate speech" laws in places like France, where simply using hateful or even antisocial language can be a crime in itself.

On top of that, countless institutions deal with this sort of thing the American way. Like it or not, it's pretty standard practice to voluntarily fire/expel/suspend/fine workers over hate speech..

Well of course. Private institutions and individuals have their own ways of dealing with what they regard as hate speech, but they don't have the Constitutional limits the government has. So yeah, if I use the N word on Interference, Diemen could bounce me (and rightly so) but the US Government couldn't throw me in jail (and rightly so).