Tipping Point - Sexual Harassment In America

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PhilsFan said:
When I was 17, I was leaving a high school party, and on the way out the parents of the host were there seeing people off. I went to shake the father's hand, and then I did not shake the mother's hand, because for some reason I thought it impolite and something you only do with men. And I didn't know either of them well so I didn't go to hug her either, so I just sort of left. And whenever I remember that, even all this time later, I'm so embarrassed, because she probably thought I was a sexist piece of shit. I don't know why I did that.
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If you ever run for office, expect this to be what forces you to resign.
 
He is so disgusting. And you know what even without all the criminal behaviour he just looks like a disgusting sleazeball. I shudder for these women. There is now a local actress in Toronto suing him for $14M for alleged harassment and of course he did the cynical thing by hiring 2 women lawyers to defend him. It all just makes you want to take a good, long shower.
 
My partner and I had a mutual professor in grad school who has been vocal in calling for Franken’s resignation etc. Yet he himself is a conspicuous sleaze, sleeping with multiple grad students, trying to get them drunk and into his car, other shit like that. It seems like a lot of guys who engage in that kind of predatory behavior have a disturbing ability to excuse it in themselves, thinking their situation is acceptable for whatever convoluted reason. Or maybe just extreme overconfidence in thinking they are so charismatic that consent is to be assumed.
 
iron yuppie said:
It seems like a lot of guys who engage in that kind of predatory behavior have a disturbing ability to excuse it in themselves, thinking their situation is acceptable for whatever convoluted reason. Or maybe just extreme overconfidence in thinking they are so charismatic that consent is to be assumed.
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I think you summed it up very well. I also think in some cases it's deep down a lack of confidence, and many other issues - disguised as overconfidence.

As for this, what the actual fuck

https://www.yahoo.com/news/mario-batali-apologizes-sexual-harassment-180325332.html

Nothing says rape rooms don't matter like cinnamon rolls.
 
iron yuppie said:
My partner and I had a mutual professor in grad school who has been vocal in calling for Franken’s resignation etc. Yet he himself is a conspicuous sleaze, sleeping with multiple grad students, trying to get them drunk and into his car, other shit like that. It seems like a lot of guys who engage in that kind of predatory behavior have a disturbing ability to excuse it in themselves, thinking their situation is acceptable for whatever convoluted reason. Or maybe just extreme overconfidence in thinking they are so charismatic that consent is to be assumed.
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Unfortunately you're summing up a good amount of our politicians or prominent leaders in general with that statement. It takes a certain type of asshole to be able to force their way into a leadership position, and it's often no surprise when that asshole forces their way upon people.
 
MrsSpringsteen said:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...270e4b0efe47ebd57dc?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009


Interesting. Glad I don't live in France.
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well i'm glad i do! :lol:

don't worry - she doesn't speak for everyone

i think one of the main concerns she has is the "mob mentality", "trial by media" kind of thing - instead of going thru legal channels, people are being fired, censored, deleted from films etc., based on allegations which haven't even been proven in court, yet your pig of a president is still in power - perhaps it would be better to go thru the courts and let the judiciary system do its work for everybody, as it is meant to, otherwise it sets a very worrying and dangerous precedent
 
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Excellent article. She makes a lot of sense. And French feminism in many ways doesn't much resemble American feminism. This pushback was as inevitable as it was predictable.

No, she doesn't speak for everyone...nor does the "believe women no matter what"/"the allegation alone is enough" crowd.
 
Well I'm not in the believe women no matter what allegation is enough "crowd".But I don't endorse what Deneuve said either.

I also think France is a great place and I didn't vote for our pig President. I just don't endorse that all of this harassment stuff just has to do with Puritanical attitudes about sex and pigs and whores. As she put it. That's an insult to victims of UNWANTED harassment and of assault.

Eliza Dushku just talked about how a stunt coordinator molested her at age 12 when she was in the movie True Lies. Age 12.
 
MrsSpringsteen said:
I just don't endorse that all of this harassment stuff just has to do with Puritanical attitudes about sex and pigs and whores. As she put it. That's an insult to victims of UNWANTED harassment and of assault.
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This.

And most of the people who've been fired and whatnot thus far are people who've had multiple accusations towards them, so I think that's a factor as well. A lot of the people who've been fired thus far have also brought the studios/shows/networks/movies they worked at or on lots of money and were big names. I imagine these companies wouldn't take the risk of letting such notable money-makers go for no justifiable reason.

I do agree that the trial process is very important, but I also don't think a lot of women who are talking about this stuff on social media are trying to make it into a "trial by public" sort of thing. I think they're mainly just commiserating and sharing their stories, and feel that social media can sometimes be the best way to force attention on the issue. Especially if you consider the idea that some of them may well have tried to go to authorities in the past...to no avail. I mean, when they keep seeing the guys who've molested or harassed them continuing to get work while they're either told to stay quiet or aren't believed even when they DO try and speak to authorities or whatnot, I can see where, after a while, they might feel more drastic and public measures need to be taken to shine a spotlight on these people.

As for Trump, I fully agree that the whole situation with him is ridiculous. I'd love for him to have to answer to the accusations against him, too. Whether that will happen, though, I don't know...and sadly, I'm leaning towards it being very unlikely.
 
MrsSpringsteen said:
I just don't endorse that all of this harassment stuff just has to do with Puritanical attitudes about sex and pigs and whores. As she put it. That's an insult to victims of UNWANTED harassment and of assault.
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the "pig" thing is a direct reference to the metoo trend in France, hashtag "balance ton porc" and the "whore" thing refers to what the equivalent slogan would be if it targeted women in the same way as males are currently being targeted "balance ta pute"

if women are going after guys who are just awkwardly trying to chat up a woman, basic seduction and flirtation, then that's just ridiculous - that's what the French would see as puritanical

if a guy touches my knee, i can just slap his hand away, laugh, take the piss, tell him to fuck off, give him my evil stare or ignore it and pretend it never happened - whatever i want to do - i have a whole artillery at my disposal, i don't have to clutch my pearls and grab my smelling salts and cry foul play... that's completely different to real sexual assault...

ps- to be clear, Deneuve didn't start the "pig" reference - that was the French #metoo lot
 
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thing is, the entertainment industry is and has always been notorious for this kind of behaviour in the extreme - it's hair-raising and horrible, but i don't believe that it is a reflection of normal male/female interactions though thank goodness
 
Nick66 said:
Excellent article. She makes a lot of sense. And French feminism in many ways doesn't much resemble American feminism. This pushback was as inevitable as it was predictable.

No, she doesn't speak for everyone...nor does the "believe women no matter what"/"the allegation alone is enough" crowd.
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if you sit any more on the fence it's going to disappear up your arse
 
Nick66 said:
Excellent article. She makes a lot of sense.
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Yeah, no. And from a Roman Polanski defender, so really no surprise there. :|

“Men have been sanctioned in their professions, forced to resign, etc., when their only wrongdoing was touching someone’s knee, trying to steal a kiss, talking about ‘intimate’ things during a professional dinner, or sending messages with a sexual connotation to a woman who wasn’t attracted to them,” they wrote.
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Jesus Christ on a bicycle, YES men should be sanctioned for this. They mean to tell us that we, as women should not complain or have men sanctioned who send us sexual messages in the workplace when we are not attracted to them? These women are living in the wrong century.

And you are wrong for continuously focusing on how this is affecting men. It's the underlying theme of most of your posts on this matter and quite telling.
 
I completely agree with anitram. When I read such posts by him I want to get on that bike with Jesus Christ and teleport myself to elsewhere...but I digress.

Yes Deneuve is a Polanski defender according to that article so total loss of respect for me there. I lose all respect for Meryl Streep when I see the photos and video of her standing O for him.

I think it's understood Nick that harassment is unwanted by definition.
 
anitram said:
Yeah, no. And from a Roman Polanski defender, so really no surprise there. :|
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Well Meryl Streep and half of Hollywood (including many of new #metoo crusaders) have praised Polanski as well. No surprises there either. A good number of them, including the sainted Streep, turned away from the behaviour of the likes of Weinstein of decades. Then they had the temerity to do that pious and fake display at the Golden Globes. Turn over any stone in Hollywood and there's a decent chance you'll find a sexual harasser. But you'll definitely find hypocrisy under all of them.

anitram said:
And you are wrong for continuously focusing on how this is affecting men. It's the underlying theme of most of your posts on this matter and quite telling.
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And what does it tell you? That there's another POV on this other than your own? That the issue is more complex than the message you can convey in a Tweet? Wow...all I did was say the letter made sense (though yes, being from a celebrity, I gave it the weight is deserved).

And I disagree with your characterisation that I "continuously" and only focus on how this effects men. But even if I did, after all, men are half the population. If we're going to have a conversation (not a lecture, not a monologue) about this issue and the range of ways men and women interact, and what's acceptable, unacceptable, and those grey areas we're going to have to sort out, that necessarily involves how all that affects men. Of course it does. It won't work without men. You won't have lasting social change without considering how all this affects men because men are part of society. Only talking about one side works great when you're creating a meme, not when you want real solutions. I think the people who truly want change and don't simply want to jump on the hashtag of the moment understand that. I'm assuming you understand that, and if you nonetheless "continuously" only focused on how all this affected women, I wouldn't assume that you're uninterested in how sweeping social change impacts the other half of the population (though perhaps I'm wrong about that).

We've discussed everything from gun control to the nature of the American electorate on here, and I've always taken it as a given, anitram, that when you disagree with me on an issue you're doing it in good faith. I don't see the need to preface every comment I make on this issue with "sexual assault and harassment is wrong". Just as I don't see the need to preface every second amendment discussion with "it's wrong to shoot people." I hope you'd take it as a given that I condemn and deplore those things...as I've said I do. I've sent men inside for decades for rape and sexual assault, I understand the issues. How many people here have done that? (have you, Cobbler?)

But when you say it's "telling" that I'm apparently looking at this issue in a way you don't approve of, it makes me wonder if you're not only disagreeing with my opinion, but my motivation for having it (and you seem to be making assumptions on what my opinion is). This is when these kind of discussions fall apart.


cobl04 said:
if you sit any more on the fence it's going to disappear up your arse
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What's wrong with sitting on the fence? I like fences.

Walking on one gives you balance. Stand on top of one and you can see both sides. Paint one and you learn karate. And if you get tired of all that, as you said you can sit on one.

The other uses you've imagined for one, I leave to your good offices.
 
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they've all been bloody Polanski defenders and Woody Allen defenders when it suits their careers - they're all bloody hypocrits

i wish people would stop using celebrities as a benchmark for life - mostly they're deluded fuckers who are out of touch with reality
 
mama cass said:
they've all been bloody Polanski defenders and Woody Allen defenders when it suits their careers - they're all bloody hypocrits

i wish people would stop using celebrities as a benchmark for life - mostly they're deluded fuckers who are out of touch with reality
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This. The last thing I need from anyone in Hollywood is to be sermonised on how to live my life.
 
Ohh fucking spare me Nick. Your fucking charade is as thin as a piece of paper. The italicised you, the strawmen hidden inside other strawmen, give me a fucking break.



Nick66 said:
Well Meryl Streep and half of Hollywood (including many of new #metoo crusaders) have praised Polanski as well. No surprises there either. A good number of them, including the sainted Streep, turned away from the behaviour of the likes of Weinstein of decades. Then they had the temerity to do that pious and fake display at the Golden Globes. Turn over any stone in Hollywood and there's a decent chance you'll find a sexual harasser. But you'll definitely find hypocrisy under all of them.
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Really admirable that the side you have taken is "why didn't the HoLLyWoOd eLiTe call this out years ago oh that's right it's only ~~~fashionable~~~ now". Good on you for completely sidetracking the fucking issue at hand - men being arseholes to women - by taking the same coward bullshit stance of every incendiary right-wing commentator.



I couldn't give a fuck that they didn't call out Weinstein et al earlier. This movement is a revolution, and it's so necessary, that it shouldn't fucking matter.





If we're going to have a conversation (not a lecture, not a monologue) about this issue and the range of ways men and women interact, and what's acceptable, unacceptable, and those grey areas we're going to have to sort out, that necessarily involves how all that affects men. Of course it does. It won't work without men. You won't have lasting social change without considering how all this affects men because men are part of society. Only talking about one side works great when you're creating a meme, not when you want real solutions.
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No. Wrong. Now is the time for men to shut the fuck up and listen, and then stay fucking quiet and reflect on their own behaviour, own up to it, and then go about affecting change quietly.



I've sent men inside for decades for rape and sexual assault, I understand the issues. How many people here have done that? (have you, Cobbler?)
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I don't even know what this means? Are you a district attorney or police officer or something? What it is though is false equivalence. *I* have done this therefore *I* am on correct moral ground. Please.



Have I done it? No. But what I have done throughout my life is I have made women feel uncomfortable through the things I have said or the things I have done.



And, as I've learned more over the past two or three years - amazingly, by shutting up and just fucking listening - I have realised that I've fucked up on numerous occasions.



I can't change the past - but I can own up to it and commit to being a better person.



Which is why I find it so fucking pathetic that people like you, not just you, pick this as their hill to die on. You're really gonna look back on your death bed and be like "man, I'm so glad I argued with all those women about their own experiences" rather than trying to just be a better person?
 
cobl04 said:
No. Wrong. Now is the time for men to shut the fuck up and listen, and then stay fucking quiet and reflect on their own behaviour, own up to it, and then go about affecting change quietly.
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This "shut up and listen" thing is nothing more than a social media meme. Nothing is going to happen if it's "shut up and listen." It's going to take a dialogue, and men and women of good faith, on both sides, reasoning together about it. And whatever happens, it's certainly not going to happen "quietly". It's going to be painful, and there are going to be good things to come out of it, but a lot of pain, and some injustices as well. Like any (to use your word) "revolution".

Shut up and listen is for people who aren't serious...it's for people who want to rant, but really don't want to go about the hard work of actually making things better. In any event, social media is a blunt instrument, and is not the place for adjudicating these things (not that much can be done about it...that genie is decidedly out of the bottle).

cobl04 said:
I couldn't give a fuck that they didn't call out Weinstein et al earlier.
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I know you don't.
 
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anitram said:
Jesus Christ on a bicycle, YES men should be sanctioned for this.
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anitram - if i recall correctly, you're a lawyer right? don't you think that men should have the right to a fair trial and let the courts apply the sanctions? the whole trial by media/twitter is disturbing to me
 
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