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Old 11-17-2017, 02:48 PM   #81
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Agreed about the speedy public trial thing.

It's difficult for me. When will someone accuse as a conspiracy? Has someone already done so? What happens when someone doesn't believe a real accuser in this new post-Weinstein age?

Makes me uncomfortable.
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Old 11-17-2017, 02:56 PM   #82
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At this point, I have no reason to doubt any of these accusers - not that I'm anybody. And a lot of these accused men are acknowledging their assholery.

But - and to keep this close to the board - what if someone accused a Bono, for instance? For whatever reason. There are pictures of Bono cavorting with young women in bathing suits. Plenty of people dislike Bono - it would be knives out.

I'm not sure we're equipped as a culture to deal with this correctly.
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Old 11-17-2017, 03:05 PM   #83
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I was spitting mad when I saw tweeter in chief tweet snark at Franken yesterday.

Pussy grabber says what?
Yeah, I saw an article earlier talking about that, and people on Twitter came out in full force making similar arguments. Stuff it, Trump.

(They also noted that he hasn't made a peep about all the stuff going on with Moore.)
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Old 11-17-2017, 03:17 PM   #84
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At this point, I have no reason to doubt any of these accusers - not that I'm anybody. And a lot of these accused men are acknowledging their assholery.

But - and to keep this close to the board - what if someone accused a Bono, for instance? For whatever reason. There are pictures of Bono cavorting with young women in bathing suits. Plenty of people dislike Bono - it would be knives out.

I'm not sure we're equipped as a culture to deal with this correctly.


Yes I agree, there's been no reason to doubt anyone so far. And so far, the accusers have been equipped and have had backup and evidence.

I'm worried about the accuser that isn't. For fear of them either not being listened to (a la Trump) or conspiring (and threatening the meaning of public accusations).
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Old 11-17-2017, 03:36 PM   #85
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At this point, I have no reason to doubt any of these accusers - not that I'm anybody. And a lot of these accused men are acknowledging their assholery.

But - and to keep this close to the board - what if someone accused a Bono, for instance? For whatever reason. There are pictures of Bono cavorting with young women in bathing suits. Plenty of people dislike Bono - it would be knives out.

I'm not sure we're equipped as a culture to deal with this correctly.



I’ve been thinking this as well, thank you for saying this.

The culture has changed a lot in 30 years. We also have to draw distinctions between a monster (Weinstein) and a creep (Frankin). As well as those who acknowledge wrong doing and apologize (Louis CK) and those who deny and play victim (Trump, Moore).

This is complex territory. On one hand, it seems simple — this is bad, often illegal, behavior. But I’m not sure where this could be heading. I’m thrilled that victims are empowered to come forward, but I’m not sure anyone has led a mistake free life and the culture is different than it was 30 years ago. (But then, I don’t take pictures like the Frankin picture, so ... dunno, pondering a lot of this stuff right now).
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Old 11-17-2017, 03:47 PM   #86
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. I’m thrilled that victims are empowered to come forward, but I’m not sure anyone has led a mistake free life and the culture is different than it was 30 years ago. (But then, I don’t take pictures like the Frankin picture, so ... dunno, pondering a lot of this stuff right now).
Times have definitely changed and going back 30 or 50 years is problematic in instances where it is an act that may have been culturally defined/approved (NOT criminal) but is not today. I think what's needed there is proper context and a separation of what we find distasteful today from what was clearly inappropriate and illegal even back then.

Which is to say that at no point do I think we should excuse any sort of child sexual assault or harassment. Or outright assault against women, up to and including rape. I don't care if everybody in your small town in the middle of nowhere was doing it - NOT acceptable.

What do you do with old men who would pat their secretary on the behind or make jokes about the receptionists breast size in front of her? It's distasteful, it's clearly 100% inappropriate today, but does such an act from a person in 1965 disqualify them from participation in polite society today? I don't think that we can make that leap.
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Old 11-17-2017, 03:51 PM   #87
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FWIW, Mika on Morning Joe really held court on this issue this morning, and she did a nice job pushing the issue deeper.
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Old 11-17-2017, 06:36 PM   #88
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Just in case anyone's still mystified as to why people are so desperate to defend Roy Moore:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/came-clea...194952547.html

Some oh-so-charming comments from his supporters in here, too:

Quote:
Several women attacked Moore’s accusers, saying the stories of abuse they’ve heard from multiple news outlets smell fishy. Martha Shiber, 79, wondered why one of the young women didn’t tell her parents she’d been attacked.

“She didn’t say anything to her mother about it ― why didn’t she tell her mom? Why didn’t the mother say anything about it?” Shiber said to HuffPost. “Roy has a beautiful wife! Why would he want to fool with some ugly-looking woman? She needs a sign over her head asking to pay for somebody to be with her.”
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Even if the allegations turned out to be true, some voters wouldn’t be swayed. Montgomery native Tim Hensley, 58, was seen arguing with a protester just outside the event. The protester held a sign that read “Roy Moore is a pedophile.” Hensley told HuffPost that he’d forgive Moore for sexual assault.

“Nothing’s really gonna change my mind,” he said. “This was 40 years ago. I probably did some things I wasn’t proud of then. I’d forgive him unless we found out about something, say, five years ago.”
The sheer stupidity on display here is truly something else .
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Old 11-17-2017, 08:48 PM   #89
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It’s beyond stupidity, these are just ugly hate-filled people.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:35 PM   #90
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Yeah, no amount of evidence will cut through the tribalism in this country. Some people would rather vote for a pedophile than a democrat. There can be mass shootings in schools, churches, and a goddamn country music festival and people still won’t consider gun control.
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Old 11-17-2017, 11:08 PM   #91
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Heh, thanks . I just tend to feel much more comfortable communicating when I'm writing (or typing) than I do when I'm speaking to somebody in person (unless I'm comfortable around them and know them well). I used to be painfully shy as a kid, too, which I think explains some of that awkwardness.
Fwiw, I love your posts! Based purely on your posts I have an impression of a really clever, kind, interesting soul who uses their ears more than their mouth.
Course, in the flesh you may be an obnoxious fanny! 😉
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Old 11-18-2017, 06:34 PM   #92
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So, I've been struggling a bit with how I feel about all of this. It's a very serious, complex subject.

First off, when we're talking about famous people - be it politicians or entertainers - I think we have to have the self-awareness to realize that our biases play a factor. How we feel about a person in general will color our reaction when that person is found to have done gross/creepy/illegal things. If we already don't care for the person, it'll be easier to pile on, but if we like the person, the reaction might be one more of disappointment, with more willingness to hear the person out before throwing them to the wolves.

So when I'm looking at all the people who've been accused recently, I look at people like Al Franken, Louis CK, and Kevin Spacey, greatly talented people who I've always respected, and I'm trying to balance my bias with the fact that they've been accused of serious things.

I'm finding it hard to get past Spacey's accusations. It looks pretty bad.

What CK did was also pretty fucking gross, but it occurs to me that of the accusations put forth, the most recent one was over a decade ago, so is it possible he's evolved since then? Maybe, maybe not. Who the hell knows, but it's something I wonder about. It's certainly disappointing and it makes, at best, the version of him from a decade+ ago look like a creep.

Franken is the only one I'd go to bat for right now. So far it's one accuser, and the act was an inappropriate kiss and inappropriate photo that was taken, in obviously terrible judgement, for comedic effect. It was gross and childish and I really wish he hadn't done it.

But bias or not, we have to be careful to not make false equivalencies. What Franken did is not the same thing as Moore apparently serially attempting to engage in sexual relationships with underage girls. It is not the same as CK jerking off in front of people. It sure as hell is not the same as what Weinstein's done. I reserve the right to change my mind if more people come forward to accuse Franken of the same or worse behavior, but my current judgement can only be based on what we know now.

People are asking if Franken should resign. Someone in here even said he should. I don't think so. And it would be easy to say that I'm a hypocrite for saying that we can't afford to lose him because every Democratic vote in the Senate is important to stopping the Republicans from doing terrible things when that's pretty much the exact argument all these people in Alabama are making for supporting Moore(the ones that aren't too busy calling the accusers liars, that is) - because they need a Republican in the Senate. I mean, the governor of Alabama yesterday said she believes the accusers but doesn't care because Alabama needs a Republican Senator.

But I don't think I am a hypocrite because - again - not all sexual misconduct allegations are the same. Again, what Franken did IS NOT THE SAME as what Moore is accused of. If Franken was accused of what Moore is accused of, I WOULD think he should resign.

And I guess that gets to the crux of where I'm at. All sexual misconduct is gross at best and unforgivable at worst, is wrong, and should never happen. But it's NOT all the same.

I really don't want it sound like I'm apologizing for anything any of these people have done. It's all really gross and offensive and inappropriate and creepy and off-putting, but there are degrees to all those things, and we shouldn't just lump everything together.

As an aside, even though people who do these things deserve to have repercussions, it does make me a bit uncomfortable the way the media and corporate America react to these things. By which I mean, as soon as someone is accused, all business partners have to cut ties and the person's career has to be over. Netflix couldn't dump CK and Spacey fast enough. HBO deleted CK's stuff from their on-demand, and Spacey was cut out of a film he'd already shot. If CK gets work again, it won't be for a while, and I'm not sure Spacey will ever get work again.

It's one thing to cut ties going forward, but to get rid of the stuff they did in the past? Make it like they never existed? They did bad things and they deserve what comes, but it still feels disconcerting to me, like a kind of lynching of someone's professional life, everything they worked for gone in an instant. When the Weinstein stuff first came out, I thought to myself that he might just put a gun in his mouth. Now I'm thinking the same about CK or Spacey. The whole thing just makes me feel uneasy, even though they did terrible things, but maybe it's just me.

Also, there's a lot of back-patting going in the media about the moment we're in and women finally being empowered to speak and how we as a society have to deal with this. Women being empowered is always great, but I hope we don't convince ourselves that we're making more progress than we are. There are still girls on college campuses who get assaulted and when they come forward are asked 'are you sure you didn't just have sex and now you regret it?'. They are women in the military who come forward, and then military court does nothing.

This is a huge, complex, profoundly important issue that permeates so many different areas of life, and we shouldn't think that a few actors/comedians/politicians being revealed means that society is magically changed over the course of a month or two, anymore than electing a black president meant that society magically became post-racial overnight.

This was long and kind of all over the place, but I just needed to get it out. Frankly, I'm a bit nervous that I might have offended people with some of the things I said, which is absolutely not the intent. I tried to express myself as thoughtfully as I could, but this is an extremely sensitive topic, and the last thing I want to do is come across as insensitive about it.
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Old 11-18-2017, 09:47 PM   #93
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I'm nervous too. At the moment people are being accused tried and convicted in the space of a few days, by the media and social media, with huge repercussions. If the crime is bad enough, and for some it appears to be, then perhaps that's ok. But lynch mobs doesn't seem like progress to me.

I'm also concerned about the fact sex is just considered icky, and gets maligned accordingly. If a man in a decent position, a position of power even, performs a clumsy and ultimately insulting come-on, is he a criminal? Is he even an asshole? I'm not defending anyone named to date but I'm worried about further accusations that could come. There has to be a sober discussion about the difference between abuse and socially awkward men trying and failing to get attention. Again, I'm not referring to the current accused.
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Old 11-19-2017, 07:59 AM   #94
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Of course what Franken did isn't as bad as Moore. But I wouldn't go to bat for him. Yes everyone does stupid things in life. But touching a woman's breasts when she's sleeping and taking a picture of it? It's a gross violation. In the workplace it would be harassment and I hope someone would get fired for it. People have been kicked out of the military for that. What are the quantified degrees of difference between that and bragging about grabbing women by the pussy, or doing that? I'm not talking about what Trump has actually done, no photos of that exist that we know of.

SNL has had a reputation for a long time of a boys club and there have been stories. So who knows what went on there either. I don't care about the politics of any of it. Men and women should just treat each other with respect, in the spirit and truth of equality.
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Old 11-19-2017, 08:11 AM   #95
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People are defending Roy Moore for the same reasons people defended Bill Clinton back in the day...partisanship.

Republicans in Alabama have decided that someone who is pro-life, will vote for conservative judicial nominees and in general support the conservative agenda which will impact hundreds of millions of people a is more important than the sexual misconduct he's been accused of. Especially when control of the Senate is so close. It's the same deal Republican voters made about Trump, and I frankly think this is a bargain most Democrats would ultimately make as well. What's more important...keeping one sleaze out of office, or controlling the political future of the country?

e.g., Democrats and feminists made the same bargain will Bill Clinton in the 90's, and the equivocation on Franken (who frankly isn't the the same league as Clinton, Moore & Weinstein in terms of bad behaviour) has already begun. Clinton advanced their agenda, and in terms of policy was good one women's issues. Attacking him would only hurt him and cost him political capital he'd need to advance that agenda.

A note on the earlier discussion of sexual harassment training. Of course, it should be done, but there are very few, in any, widespread studies that conclusively demonstrate it's effective in deterring bad behavior, and such training in many organizations is not always taken seriously...but both participants and instructors. It's just another thing HR does that you have to sit through. At its best, it lets people know that the boundaries are and keeps generally good people (well, lets fact it, guys mostly) from crossing them, intentionally or unintentionally. But there's no evidence that it's going to stop genuine creeps and predators. It's like locking your car doors...it's not going to stop an honest thief, but it helps keep honest people honest. However, the training can be valuable in that it can help people recognize the warning signs in the interactions around them.

But as an attorney, I can tell you that these courses are first and foremost designed to help protect the company from lawsuits.
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:19 PM   #96
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Heh, thanks . I just tend to feel much more comfortable communicating when I'm writing (or typing) than I do when I'm speaking to somebody in person (unless I'm comfortable around them and know them well). I used to be painfully shy as a kid, too, which I think explains some of that awkwardness.
the certainly makes sense.
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:31 PM   #97
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Yes that's an entirely different context. As an aside I think it's ridiculous too, focus should be elsewhere. Dealing with my mother's illness for almost three years now and so many doctors and staff and the whole rest of it. Smiling while making people wait 45 min or more-nah. Making things like refills a colossal hassle. Smile?

My mother's surgeon actually chewed gum during one of our appointments. After we found out she had incurable cancer, he says to me "is everything ok"? I said no, everything 's not ok. He then says well it is what it is. Ugh. That's fine Belichick post game media snark. Not to a patient's daughter who found that out one week after her birthday.

Luckily one of her doctors is an absolute gem and treats me so well that it's a true blessing in my life.

Now I have to go look up what AL Franken did.
I'm so sorry you are dealing with this. And that original emotionally clueless doctor! Blessings on the aware, considerate one.
(My folks are both gone now, but had serious issues with my mom after i was 5 1/2 years old, she eventually improved (especially in her late 40's, but then soon after my dad (early 50's and was early 20's)had problems, and then they both had problems from later 70's onward)

I hope you have various support systems!! So important, often very helpful.
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:49 PM   #98
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As for Bono, the one photo that often shows up here. When it first showed up someone pointed out that it had been cropped. There was a whole family that these young women were part of in the pic- so it ended up looking like they were on their own.

namkcur looked at your post quickly ( not at home, outside free WiFi) will reread tomorrow.
It appears very thoughtful. Thx
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Old 11-20-2017, 08:48 AM   #99
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I'm nervous too. At the moment people are being accused tried and convicted in the space of a few days, by the media and social media, with huge repercussions. If the crime is bad enough, and for some it appears to be, then perhaps that's ok. But lynch mobs doesn't seem like progress to me.

I'm also concerned about the fact sex is just considered icky, and gets maligned accordingly. If a man in a decent position, a position of power even, performs a clumsy and ultimately insulting come-on, is he a criminal? Is he even an asshole? I'm not defending anyone named to date but I'm worried about further accusations that could come. There has to be a sober discussion about the difference between abuse and socially awkward men trying and failing to get attention. Again, I'm not referring to the current accused.
I understand what you mean and I think you come from a good place, here and generally with your views, but I can't help but notice that the concern here is 100% with men, socially awkward or otherwise. It is just kind of...tiresome from the other side to see this. Kind of how when racism gets discussed and instead of going in depth on the implications for people of colour we concentrate on how it affects white people when they are accused of racism even though they may not be true "n-word racists" but something a bit less.

I hope that makes sense.
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Old 11-20-2017, 09:08 AM   #100
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I understand what you mean and I think you come from a good place, here and generally with your views, but I can't help but notice that the concern here is 100% with men, socially awkward or otherwise. It is just kind of...tiresome from the other side to see this. Kind of how when racism gets discussed and instead of going in depth on the implications for people of colour we concentrate on how it affects white people when they are accused of racism even though they may not be true "n-word racists" but something a bit less.

I hope that makes sense.
I agree. It comes across to me as if "awkward" men are somehow being victimized by all of this. I think people know the difference between awkward come ons and harassment and more. Without getting into all the gory details. I'm an awkward person too, it's not just men. But I definitely know the difference. Like someone mentioned it's about sex being seen as "icky". Honestly I just didn't get that at all in the context of harassment and assault.
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