Tipping Point - Sexual Harassment In America

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Heh, thanks :). I just tend to feel much more comfortable communicating when I'm writing (or typing) than I do when I'm speaking to somebody in person (unless I'm comfortable around them and know them well). I used to be painfully shy as a kid, too, which I think explains some of that awkwardness.
Fwiw, I love your posts! Based purely on your posts I have an impression of a really clever, kind, interesting soul who uses their ears more than their mouth.
Course, in the flesh you may be an obnoxious fanny! ?
 
So, I've been struggling a bit with how I feel about all of this. It's a very serious, complex subject.

First off, when we're talking about famous people - be it politicians or entertainers - I think we have to have the self-awareness to realize that our biases play a factor. How we feel about a person in general will color our reaction when that person is found to have done gross/creepy/illegal things. If we already don't care for the person, it'll be easier to pile on, but if we like the person, the reaction might be one more of disappointment, with more willingness to hear the person out before throwing them to the wolves.

So when I'm looking at all the people who've been accused recently, I look at people like Al Franken, Louis CK, and Kevin Spacey, greatly talented people who I've always respected, and I'm trying to balance my bias with the fact that they've been accused of serious things.

I'm finding it hard to get past Spacey's accusations. It looks pretty bad.

What CK did was also pretty fucking gross, but it occurs to me that of the accusations put forth, the most recent one was over a decade ago, so is it possible he's evolved since then? Maybe, maybe not. Who the hell knows, but it's something I wonder about. It's certainly disappointing and it makes, at best, the version of him from a decade+ ago look like a creep.

Franken is the only one I'd go to bat for right now. So far it's one accuser, and the act was an inappropriate kiss and inappropriate photo that was taken, in obviously terrible judgement, for comedic effect. It was gross and childish and I really wish he hadn't done it.

But bias or not, we have to be careful to not make false equivalencies. What Franken did is not the same thing as Moore apparently serially attempting to engage in sexual relationships with underage girls. It is not the same as CK jerking off in front of people. It sure as hell is not the same as what Weinstein's done. I reserve the right to change my mind if more people come forward to accuse Franken of the same or worse behavior, but my current judgement can only be based on what we know now.

People are asking if Franken should resign. Someone in here even said he should. I don't think so. And it would be easy to say that I'm a hypocrite for saying that we can't afford to lose him because every Democratic vote in the Senate is important to stopping the Republicans from doing terrible things when that's pretty much the exact argument all these people in Alabama are making for supporting Moore(the ones that aren't too busy calling the accusers liars, that is) - because they need a Republican in the Senate. I mean, the governor of Alabama yesterday said she believes the accusers but doesn't care because Alabama needs a Republican Senator.

But I don't think I am a hypocrite because - again - not all sexual misconduct allegations are the same. Again, what Franken did IS NOT THE SAME as what Moore is accused of. If Franken was accused of what Moore is accused of, I WOULD think he should resign.

And I guess that gets to the crux of where I'm at. All sexual misconduct is gross at best and unforgivable at worst, is wrong, and should never happen. But it's NOT all the same.

I really don't want it sound like I'm apologizing for anything any of these people have done. It's all really gross and offensive and inappropriate and creepy and off-putting, but there are degrees to all those things, and we shouldn't just lump everything together.

As an aside, even though people who do these things deserve to have repercussions, it does make me a bit uncomfortable the way the media and corporate America react to these things. By which I mean, as soon as someone is accused, all business partners have to cut ties and the person's career has to be over. Netflix couldn't dump CK and Spacey fast enough. HBO deleted CK's stuff from their on-demand, and Spacey was cut out of a film he'd already shot. If CK gets work again, it won't be for a while, and I'm not sure Spacey will ever get work again.

It's one thing to cut ties going forward, but to get rid of the stuff they did in the past? Make it like they never existed? They did bad things and they deserve what comes, but it still feels disconcerting to me, like a kind of lynching of someone's professional life, everything they worked for gone in an instant. When the Weinstein stuff first came out, I thought to myself that he might just put a gun in his mouth. Now I'm thinking the same about CK or Spacey. The whole thing just makes me feel uneasy, even though they did terrible things, but maybe it's just me.

Also, there's a lot of back-patting going in the media about the moment we're in and women finally being empowered to speak and how we as a society have to deal with this. Women being empowered is always great, but I hope we don't convince ourselves that we're making more progress than we are. There are still girls on college campuses who get assaulted and when they come forward are asked 'are you sure you didn't just have sex and now you regret it?'. They are women in the military who come forward, and then military court does nothing.

This is a huge, complex, profoundly important issue that permeates so many different areas of life, and we shouldn't think that a few actors/comedians/politicians being revealed means that society is magically changed over the course of a month or two, anymore than electing a black president meant that society magically became post-racial overnight.

This was long and kind of all over the place, but I just needed to get it out. Frankly, I'm a bit nervous that I might have offended people with some of the things I said, which is absolutely not the intent. I tried to express myself as thoughtfully as I could, but this is an extremely sensitive topic, and the last thing I want to do is come across as insensitive about it.
 
I'm nervous too. At the moment people are being accused tried and convicted in the space of a few days, by the media and social media, with huge repercussions. If the crime is bad enough, and for some it appears to be, then perhaps that's ok. But lynch mobs doesn't seem like progress to me.

I'm also concerned about the fact sex is just considered icky, and gets maligned accordingly. If a man in a decent position, a position of power even, performs a clumsy and ultimately insulting come-on, is he a criminal? Is he even an asshole? I'm not defending anyone named to date but I'm worried about further accusations that could come. There has to be a sober discussion about the difference between abuse and socially awkward men trying and failing to get attention. Again, I'm not referring to the current accused.
 
Of course what Franken did isn't as bad as Moore. But I wouldn't go to bat for him. Yes everyone does stupid things in life. But touching a woman's breasts when she's sleeping and taking a picture of it? It's a gross violation. In the workplace it would be harassment and I hope someone would get fired for it. People have been kicked out of the military for that. What are the quantified degrees of difference between that and bragging about grabbing women by the pussy, or doing that? I'm not talking about what Trump has actually done, no photos of that exist that we know of.

SNL has had a reputation for a long time of a boys club and there have been stories. So who knows what went on there either. I don't care about the politics of any of it. Men and women should just treat each other with respect, in the spirit and truth of equality.
 
People are defending Roy Moore for the same reasons people defended Bill Clinton back in the day...partisanship.

Republicans in Alabama have decided that someone who is pro-life, will vote for conservative judicial nominees and in general support the conservative agenda which will impact hundreds of millions of people a is more important than the sexual misconduct he's been accused of. Especially when control of the Senate is so close. It's the same deal Republican voters made about Trump, and I frankly think this is a bargain most Democrats would ultimately make as well. What's more important...keeping one sleaze out of office, or controlling the political future of the country?

e.g., Democrats and feminists made the same bargain will Bill Clinton in the 90's, and the equivocation on Franken (who frankly isn't the the same league as Clinton, Moore & Weinstein in terms of bad behaviour) has already begun. Clinton advanced their agenda, and in terms of policy was good one women's issues. Attacking him would only hurt him and cost him political capital he'd need to advance that agenda.

A note on the earlier discussion of sexual harassment training. Of course, it should be done, but there are very few, in any, widespread studies that conclusively demonstrate it's effective in deterring bad behavior, and such training in many organizations is not always taken seriously...but both participants and instructors. It's just another thing HR does that you have to sit through. At its best, it lets people know that the boundaries are and keeps generally good people (well, lets fact it, guys mostly) from crossing them, intentionally or unintentionally. But there's no evidence that it's going to stop genuine creeps and predators. It's like locking your car doors...it's not going to stop an honest thief, but it helps keep honest people honest. However, the training can be valuable in that it can help people recognize the warning signs in the interactions around them.

But as an attorney, I can tell you that these courses are first and foremost designed to help protect the company from lawsuits.
 
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Heh, thanks :). I just tend to feel much more comfortable communicating when I'm writing (or typing) than I do when I'm speaking to somebody in person (unless I'm comfortable around them and know them well). I used to be painfully shy as a kid, too, which I think explains some of that awkwardness.

:hug: the certainly makes sense.
 
Yes that's an entirely different context. As an aside I think it's ridiculous too, focus should be elsewhere. Dealing with my mother's illness for almost three years now and so many doctors and staff and the whole rest of it. Smiling while making people wait 45 min or more-nah. Making things like refills a colossal hassle. Smile?

My mother's surgeon actually chewed gum during one of our appointments. After we found out she had incurable cancer, he says to me "is everything ok"? I said no, everything 's not ok. He then says well it is what it is. Ugh. That's fine Belichick post game media snark. Not to a patient's daughter who found that out one week after her birthday.

Luckily one of her doctors is an absolute gem and treats me so well that it's a true blessing in my life.

Now I have to go look up what AL Franken did.

I'm so sorry you are dealing with this. And that original emotionally clueless doctor! :| Blessings on the aware, considerate one.
(My folks are both gone now, but had serious issues with my mom after i was 5 1/2 years old, she eventually improved (especially in her late 40's, but then soon after my dad (early 50's and was early 20's)had problems, and then they both had problems from later 70's onward)

I hope you have various support systems!! :hug: So important, often very helpful.
 
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As for Bono, the one photo that often shows up here. When it first showed up someone pointed out that it had been cropped. There was a whole family that these young women were part of in the pic- so it ended up looking like they were on their own.

namkcur looked at your post quickly ( not at home, outside free WiFi) will reread tomorrow.
It appears very thoughtful. Thx
 
I'm nervous too. At the moment people are being accused tried and convicted in the space of a few days, by the media and social media, with huge repercussions. If the crime is bad enough, and for some it appears to be, then perhaps that's ok. But lynch mobs doesn't seem like progress to me.

I'm also concerned about the fact sex is just considered icky, and gets maligned accordingly. If a man in a decent position, a position of power even, performs a clumsy and ultimately insulting come-on, is he a criminal? Is he even an asshole? I'm not defending anyone named to date but I'm worried about further accusations that could come. There has to be a sober discussion about the difference between abuse and socially awkward men trying and failing to get attention. Again, I'm not referring to the current accused.

I understand what you mean and I think you come from a good place, here and generally with your views, but I can't help but notice that the concern here is 100% with men, socially awkward or otherwise. It is just kind of...tiresome from the other side to see this. Kind of how when racism gets discussed and instead of going in depth on the implications for people of colour we concentrate on how it affects white people when they are accused of racism even though they may not be true "n-word racists" but something a bit less.

I hope that makes sense.
 
I understand what you mean and I think you come from a good place, here and generally with your views, but I can't help but notice that the concern here is 100% with men, socially awkward or otherwise. It is just kind of...tiresome from the other side to see this. Kind of how when racism gets discussed and instead of going in depth on the implications for people of colour we concentrate on how it affects white people when they are accused of racism even though they may not be true "n-word racists" but something a bit less.

I hope that makes sense.

I agree. It comes across to me as if "awkward" men are somehow being victimized by all of this. I think people know the difference between awkward come ons and harassment and more. Without getting into all the gory details. I'm an awkward person too, it's not just men. But I definitely know the difference. Like someone mentioned it's about sex being seen as "icky". Honestly I just didn't get that at all in the context of harassment and assault.
 
I think people know the difference between awkward come ons and harassment and more. Without getting into all the gory details. I'm an awkward person too, it's not just men. But I definitely know the difference.

Yeah, I have to agree here and found that comment a bit odd.

I've been hit on by "awkward" men, including one who at the same time attempted to date me and my best friend, even showed up to our houses on Valentine's Day and gave us identical gifts (he must have been truly dim to think that we wouldn't have discussed it??). But at no point did I think that they were harassing me, I knew immediately that they just have the typical social graces you'd expect of adult men. It would be one thing if they crossed the line, but none of them did, they just sort of accepted defeat and moved on, awkwardly.
 

This is just unfathomable that a supposedly intelligent grown man could say this:


As far as I know, he was in a bedroom with a 14-year-old. Kevin Spacey was 26, boy 14. One wonders where the boy’s parents were,” he said. “One wonders if the boy did not know what would happen. I do not know about you, but in my youth I have never been in situations like this. Never. I was always aware of what could happen. When you are in somebody’s bedroom, you have to be aware of where that can lead to. That’s why it does not sound very credible to me. It seems to me that Spacey has been attacked unnecessarily.”
 
I understand what you mean and I think you come from a good place, here and generally with your views, but I can't help but notice that the concern here is 100% with men, socially awkward or otherwise. It is just kind of...tiresome from the other side to see this. Kind of how when racism gets discussed and instead of going in depth on the implications for people of colour we concentrate on how it affects white people when they are accused of racism even though they may not be true "n-word racists" but something a bit less.

I hope that makes sense.

I agree. It comes across to me as if "awkward" men are somehow being victimized by all of this. I think people know the difference between awkward come ons and harassment and more. Without getting into all the gory details. I'm an awkward person too, it's not just men. But I definitely know the difference. Like someone mentioned it's about sex being seen as "icky". Honestly I just didn't get that at all in the context of harassment and assault.
I have seen men use their inherent awkwardness to excuse bad behavior, as well. And it makes it harder for others to call them out on it because they're unsure of what they're seeing at any given moment.

It all comes back to the fact that you need to understand the world outside your own head.
 
This is just unfathomable that a supposedly intelligent grown man could say this:
It's disgusting. What about Heather Unruh ' s son in that bar too, he should have known that Spacey would do that to an 18 year old right in the middle of a public place? A guy he just met and he somewhat idolized him because of his fame. I bet Morrissey would blame her son and say he shouldn't have been drinking with Spacey in that bar because he was underage. Or he should have known what happens in bars when you drink. Just like any random woman shouldn't have been wearing a short skirt, shouldn't have gone with that guy. Etc etc etc victim blaming.
 
He says "I always felt I was persuing shared feelings". Did he ask them first? That's a suggestion. He thought that about at least eight women? And he says he didn't realize that wasn't the case until now. Dude you're 75.

I don't want to read the details. Ick.
 
While I agree that this conversation must be focused on the harassed, I also think it’s important to give men something to do to help, whether that be a way to behave better or the space to admit wrongdoing in the past.

Some of these stories, like this one from Slate, seem very, very far removed from Weinstein:


McGann published text messages between the 50-year-old Thrush and the friend of a 23-year-old woman who said she had been left “in tears” after resisting Thrush’s advances after a colleague’s going-away party in June. In the messages, the friend confronted Thrush, who apologized but said he had “spent the better part of 20 years advocating for women journalists.” He also said he "got drunk because [he] got some shitty health news" but needed to “be more understanding of the power dynamics in casual situations.”

In another instance, a young Politico staffer in the winter of 2012–2013 said she and Thrush wound up drunk and at her place after a Politico going-away party and that she stopped him and reminded him he was married. A third woman told McGann that after a 2013 Politico party, Thrush “suddenly ... leaned in and landed a wet kiss on her ear.”

McGann wrote that in her own case, Thrush had no formal power over her. “But he was an incredibly influential person in the newsroom and in political journalism, a world I was still trying to break into in a meaningful way at the time,” she wrote. “Thrush, just by his stature, put women in a position of feeling they had to suck up and move on from an uncomfortable encounter.”


So we’ll see how this pans out. A story like this seems like a general ed example of how we should behave better in a workplace situation, but that’s about it.
 
Gayle King and Norah O'Donnell just talked about Charlie Rose on CBS This Morning. One of the most honest discussions I've ever seen on tv. Especially considering how awkward it must be for them.
 
The Charlie Rose thing is just...ye gods. Seriously, what in the hell is it about some guys that they think they can just expose themselves for the hell of it like that? What about "keep it in your pants" is so fucking difficult for some people to comprehend? I don't get it.

As for Morrissey, he needs to just...not talk anymore.

Fwiw, I love your posts! Based purely on your posts I have an impression of a really clever, kind, interesting soul who uses their ears more than their mouth.
Course, in the flesh you may be an obnoxious fanny! ?

LOL!

Thanks for the kind words :hug:.
 
I really wish some of our old posters were around now so we can ask them about how they said sexism is all blown up by feminists and the media and "mansplaining" was a feminazi term, etc. Maybe now they are starting to see what women live with day in and day out. And we are talking mostly about "polite" and educated and upper class individuals here...just imagine what women in the lower socioeconomic groups have to put up in their workplaces and homes. :|
 
Here is the misogynist-in-chief chiming in:

“Roy Moore denies it— that’s all I can say.”

In fact, "He totally denies it."
 
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