Tipping Point - Sexual Harassment In America - Page 31 - U2 Feedback

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Old 01-23-2018, 04:51 PM   #601
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But it seemed everyone was doing it. The girls too. Not that I ever complained but I was always getting groped. And other guys were groping girls. And girls would look at the person responsible and seem to decide whether to say 'fuck off' or dance with them.
It's like it was an accepted behavior.
I really appreciated the honesty and self-reflection in your post, all of it.

This is the bit that interests me most, however, and it goes to this issue of the "unwanted sexual advance."

In the scenario you described, it wasn't the sexual grabbing by strangers that the women (and men) had an issue with. They just didn't want to be grabbed by undesirable strangers. Only you really may not know how a stranger in a sweaty club is going to respond before you do the grabbing. And making the issue even murkier, for everyone involved, is when it seems like everyone in the club is doing it.

So what's the answer? No one ever grabs a stranger in a sexual way in any situation, no matter how erotically charged? That's the easy, straight forward answer. But what's the correct behaviour when someone grabs you? To always respond negatively, even if you welcome it, to discourage the behaviour? To what extent are we, as a society, willing regulate these things? Isn't this more of a societal issue of how we raise our boys (respect women) and how we raise our girls (respect themselves) than a legal one? I think perhaps so.

Just one of the many reasons this issue is so nuanced and complex. We can call what you did "assault", as you have, but the truth is the legal system is for the most part completely unsuitable for dealing with situations like this. Criminal law is all about bright lines and objective standards, and frankly just not very good at adjudicating these scenarios. We have an incredibly difficult time simply prosecuting acquaintance rape. No one would even want to think about the nightmare of trying to prosecute the kind of behaviour your'e talking about.

Anyway, these are rhetorical questions that I don't have the answers to. I do know it makes me happy I'm not 22 and at uni anymore.
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Old 01-23-2018, 05:34 PM   #602
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Thanks all - this is a standard/expected complication of being an insulin-dependent diabetic. The placenta inevitably fails and it's just a question of balancing how prematurely you give birth vs avoiding a stillbirth. Sucks but not my first rodeo and they will decide what to do with me tomorrow. FYM has been a decent distraction.
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Old 01-23-2018, 05:37 PM   #603
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Thanks all - this is a standard/expected complication of being an insulin-dependent diabetic. The placenta inevitably fails and it's just a question of balancing how prematurely you give birth vs avoiding a stillbirth. Sucks but not my first rodeo and they will decide what to do with me tomorrow. FYM has been a decent distraction.
jeez louise sounds scary! fingers crossed and all the best for you and your baby!

"decent distraction"?! that's one way of putting it
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Old 01-23-2018, 05:41 PM   #604
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good luck, anitram.
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Old 01-23-2018, 06:33 PM   #605
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Take care, anitram. Hope all turns out okay.
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Old 01-23-2018, 06:38 PM   #606
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Wow, my thoughts are with you, Martina.

There's too much in this thread for me to comment on, but I'll say this: I am very much in line with Cobbler's position from a few pages back.
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Old 01-23-2018, 06:43 PM   #607
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Thanks all - this is a standard/expected complication of being an insulin-dependent diabetic. The placenta inevitably fails and it's just a question of balancing how prematurely you give birth vs avoiding a stillbirth. Sucks but not my first rodeo and they will decide what to do with me tomorrow. FYM has been a decent distraction.
Stay safe tonight...
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Old 01-23-2018, 06:43 PM   #608
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I am very much in line with Cobbler's position from a few pages back.
Dressing in a donkey onesie is not going to solve anything, BoMac.
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Old 01-23-2018, 06:45 PM   #609
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Dressing in a donkey onesie is not going to solve anything, BoMac.
I believe the correct terminology is "donko oneso".
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Old 01-23-2018, 06:49 PM   #610
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Are you mansplaining Cobbler to me?








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Old 01-23-2018, 07:26 PM   #611
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Thanks all - this is a standard/expected complication of being an insulin-dependent diabetic. The placenta inevitably fails and it's just a question of balancing how prematurely you give birth vs avoiding a stillbirth. Sucks but not my first rodeo and they will decide what to do with me tomorrow. FYM has been a decent distraction.
I hope everything goes well.
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Old 01-23-2018, 07:50 PM   #612
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I am not surprised, though completely disgusted by women's tales of sexual harassment and assault, like those anitram and mama shared.
I'm always trying to solve problems, rather than just talk about them, and that seems to piss people off in here. But with this i don't know how you solve it.
I was that guy, many times, groping girls in bars when we were young. All us guys were. I don't say this happily! Thing is, a good amount of the time it 'worked'. You'd end up snogging on the dancefloor all night, or going home with them. And that was why we'd gone out. Cause we were horny young guys who felt embarrassed by being single and frustrated at how uninterested girls were in us. Then on the weekend we'd get smashed, go in to town, and try to get girls to like us.
And horrifically what we were doing to 'get girls to like us' was assaulting them. I do get how fucked up that is and I am ashamed.
But it seemed everyone was doing it. The girls too. Not that I ever complained but I was always getting groped. And other guys were groping girls. And girls would look at the person responsible and seem to decide whether to say 'fuck off' or dance with them.
It's like it was an accepted behavior.
I know a lot of times I'd get told to fuck off by a girl, then a minute later a better looking guy would do the same thing to the same girl and get a very different reaction.
And same with me. If i was groped by a girl (or guy) I'd decide whether I wanted to take that further or not. It only felt like harassment when the person didn't take no for an answer.

And I'm talking purely about drunken nights at bars. Not dodgy workplace scumbags.

I don't know what the intent is here. Are we saying to stop all that gropey drunken behavior altogether? Or to empower women and teach men that one word is all that is needed to say and mean no, and have it respected?
Sober and old, as i am now, i think stopping it altogether sounds best. A massive culture shift.
But I'm not sure all the 18 year olds would agree. Many might. And many might not. Cause as horrible as it is, it seems to be a recognized part of the human mating ritual.

I dunno.
I appreciate your sharing so frankly. Reasonable posts without concern for "board status" are in short supply here.

May I ask if you saw a lot of crotch grabbing?

I partied in my twenties as much or more than just about anyone I know (in a variety of settings) and I've never seen blatant crotch grabbing. For example, I went to numerous bars visiting my friends in college and it wasn't something I saw.

I've seen a lot of passes made and dirty dancing attempts be rebuffed. I've seen guys repeatedly try to dance from behind when it's clear the woman isn't into it, unwanted attention, unwarranted hugs, failed kiss attempts, people saying really rude shit to each other, fights (physical and verbal) between both sexes break out, butt slapping, you name it.

I just can't fathom considering how many times I've been out socially that it's something that happens regularly when I've never seen it publicly happen (apart from it happening to me.)

I'm not calling into question others experiences as it obviously happens. Rather, I genuinely want to know if this is a common occurrence that I somehow missed.
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Old 01-23-2018, 07:58 PM   #613
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Are you mansplaining Cobbler to me?










Ha! Of course not. No amount of explanation, mansplaining or otherwise, could adequately explain Cobbler.
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Old 01-23-2018, 08:09 PM   #614
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I appreciate your sharing so frankly. Reasonable posts without concern for "board status" are in short supply here.

May I ask if you saw a lot of crotch grabbing?

I partied in my twenties as much or more than just about anyone I know (in a variety of settings) and I've never seen blatant crotch grabbing. For example, I went to numerous bars visiting my friends in college and it wasn't something I saw.

I've seen a lot of passes made and dirty dancing attempts be rebuffed. I've seen guys repeatedly try to dance from behind when it's clear the woman isn't into it, unwanted attention, unwarranted hugs, failed kiss attempts, people saying really rude shit to each other, fights (physical and verbal) between both sexes break out, butt slapping, you name it.

I just can't fathom considering how many times I've been out socially that it's something that happens regularly when I've never seen it publicly happen (apart from it happening to me.)

I'm not calling into question others experiences as it obviously happens. Rather, I genuinely want to know if this is a common occurrence that I somehow missed.
Actually, no, now I think about it. I had my crotch grabbed a number of times, but like I said earlier I never felt intimidated other than when the big fella did it (while pressing me against the wall - in a very dark alley - with his other hand.. yikes!).
In fact I can't even recall grabbing of breasts. What I'm recalling seeing (and doing) is ... well, butt-touching. (is there a more respectable way to say that?)
Not grabbing, just touching. Although I had mine fairly well squeezed a few times so perhas that was common. But I'm remembering the hand on the butt - will she like it or won't she - thing. And as I said often the woman didn't like it. And that's a pretty horrible thing to reconcile now.

But no, genital grabbing, even in that environment, would have seemed ... rapey. And I know the US and NZ are very different cultures but I suspect if a guy was groping strangers' genitals on the dancefloor in NZ the other guys would take him outside and kick the shit out of him.

Sorry, not very concise!
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Old 01-23-2018, 08:47 PM   #615
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Thanks all - this is a standard/expected complication of being an insulin-dependent diabetic. The placenta inevitably fails and it's just a question of balancing how prematurely you give birth vs avoiding a stillbirth. Sucks but not my first rodeo and they will decide what to do with me tomorrow. FYM has been a decent distraction.
I wish you all the best, so sorry to read that you're going through this. Will include you in my prayers tonight.
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Old 01-23-2018, 11:27 PM   #616
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Meanwhile, in another thread:

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I dunno about you folks but I'm beginning to think this redhill character might be a little coocoo for cocoa puffs.
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quit being such a grand bitch and get on board.
These are a couple of the people ruining this forum and encouraging decent people who want to have thoughtful conversations to continue lurking instead of actively contributing.

How people like this aren't permanently banned is an absolute mystery.

Blatant sexual harassment and false mischaracterizations just running wild with themselves because ignorance is all they know. It would be comical (if it wasn't so sad) since this is the exact type of behavior U2 rails against.

Yet here they are, posting nonstop as if they actually belong.

Incidentally, this is one of the reasons why so few heterosexual men report sexual assault and harassment. They fear others might try to stigmatize them falsely.
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Old 01-23-2018, 11:42 PM   #617
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These are a couple of the people ruining this forum and encouraging decent people who want to have thoughtful conversations to continue lurking instead of actively contributing.

How people like this aren't permanently banned is an absolute mystery.


I've largely stayed out of your commentary with the handful of people you're chatting with. They're not "ruining the forum," and despite perhaps those posts not being the best of taste, they're also "decent people." If you genuinely feel just, don't pick fights throwing fire at them. They're part of the reason this forum still exists, nobody should be banned for a joke, even if inappropriately at your or my expense.
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Old 01-23-2018, 11:44 PM   #618
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Tipping Point - Sexual Harassment In America

Yes, those posts are in poor taste and I commented on them.

However... where are they sexually harassing anyone?

One might say that taking those posts and calling them blatant sexual harassment is mischaracterization run wild.
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Old 01-23-2018, 11:51 PM   #619
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I've largely stayed out of your commentary with the handful of people you're chatting with.
Oh, thanks so much for your kind generosity good sir!

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They're not "ruining the forum," and despite perhaps those posts not being the best of taste, they're also "decent people."
Yes, they clearly are. Someone who ignorantly sexually harasses someone (especially considering the personal information I recently shared) is in no way a "decent person".

Quote:
If you genuinely feel just, don't pick fights throwing fire at them. They're part of the reason this forum still exists, nobody should be banned for a joke, even if inappropriately at your or my expense.
I didn't pick the fight. I just happened across these posts so keep the failed distortion attempt to yourself. I have no idea how many members this site has but I think there would still be plenty without sexual harassers being encouraged to stay. Saying they're part of the reason the forum still exists is a bit of a stretch. Also, that "joke" was blatant sexual harassment so let's not minimize.
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:03 AM   #620
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I don't know what was sexual about it. BaevC might be a total cutie but that doesn't mean he's coming on to you sexually.
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