Tipping Point - Sexual Harassment In America

[MrsSpringsteen]

My head hurts. Is this still about sexual harassment?

[anitram]

Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen

My head hurts. Is this still about sexual harassment?

I have to say thinking back to Redhill's post, it's interesting to me that neither he nor those agreeing with the spirit of his posts seemed to take a moment to consider that he was all hot and bothered over being sexually assaulted TWICE, in drunken bar scenarios. Like, that was my night every night at a bar in college. Before midnight. To say nothing of how many times my girlfriends and I had to put up with some asshole dropping trou and exposing his junk to us on a random street at night or in a park, or the hooting and hollering from cars, or the much worse groping at bars or parties, or the downright creepy/aggressive moves, or being held down or pressured to have sex, or being texted photos of penises for no reason whatsoever, or being massaged by supervisors/bosses and that's not even getting into the rampant sexism of the workplace which would fall under harassment and not actual assault.

But hey, it's super important we talk about men's rights EXACTLY AS MUCH as we do about women's because anything else is just not equality.

[redhill]

Originally Posted by anitram

I have to say thinking back to Redhill's post, it's interesting to me that neither he nor those agreeing with the spirit of his posts seemed to take a moment to consider that he was all hot and bothered over being sexually assaulted TWICE, in drunken bar scenarios. Like, that was my night every night at a bar in college. Before midnight. To say nothing of how many times my girlfriends and I had to put up with some asshole dropping trou and exposing his junk to us on a random street at night or in a park, or the hooting and hollering from cars, or the much worse groping at bars or parties, or the downright creepy/aggressive moves, or being held down or pressured to have sex, or being texted photos of penises for no reason whatsoever, or being massaged by supervisors/bosses and that's not even getting into the rampant sexism of the workplace which would fall under harassment and not actual assault.

But hey, it's super important we talk about men's rights EXACTLY AS MUCH as we do about women's because anything else is just not equality.

I stopped posting about that because, as I stated, I didn't want to dominate the conversation with the point I was making (so much for your claim that I want to take about men's rights EXACTLY AS MUCH). However, this post is so disingenuous that I simply have to reply. Let me point out the factual errors:

I never said or used language to express that I was "hot and bothered" (an ironic and unfortunate turn of phrase in this context) over being sexually assaulted. What bothered me is that I had no recourse if I had chosen to pursue it and that it was laughed off. In stark contrast, regardless of what other posters have said, assault on women is taken very seriously and men can be arrested with little or no evidence. Beyond that, a claim in and of itself can destroy a man (even if it's false). That's the double standard I was irritated about. I think you indicated you have legal experience so it's odd that you so obviously mischaracterize my posts. Also, to that point, in both of those scenarios, I had just entered the bar and had absolutely no alcohol in me.

Also, I don't want to minimize your experiences but it seems statistically impossible that you were grabbed in the crotch (especially in a way that caused physical pain) or otherwise sexually assaulted EVERY NIGHT BEFORE MIDNIGHT at a bar in college. There's no point in having a conversation if you're going to be that dishonest.

Beyond that, I've had a lot of other experiences I didn't mention. I had a female babysitter when I was 8 years old repeatedly try to get me to touch her private parts (above and below) by placing coins in those places and trying to coerce me to get them. I've had a complete stranger walk up and smack my butt a couple of times in my 20's (once in Wal-Mart). I was dating a girl who came over smashed one night (I was working on the computer when she showed up unannounced) and she stripped and demanded that I immediately have sex with her. I wasn't in the mood as she was so inebriated and I was working. She became wildly agitated when I refused and held a grudge forever after that. She tried to destroy my reputation around town by making false claims and telling people that the exact opposite happened. I had a scorned woman physically attack me because I broke up with her...knowing full well that she could get away with it. I was also repeatedly sexually harassed at work by my manager. I could go on if you like...

Despite the above and other experiences, I never said men had it worse in terms of what they have to deal with. In fact, I agreed that it was quite the opposite and would never suggest such a thing. Again, I was pointing out the double standard as referenced above.

Again, you state that I expressed that "it's super important we talk about men's rights EXACTLY AS MUCH as we do about women's because anything else is just not equality."

I never said that and anyone reading my posts in this thread will you see that you are being dishonest. I was adding to the conversation a critical and often overlooked point. I never said we need to talk about it EXACTLY AS MUCH.

You didn't want to engage me directly with open and honest dialogue when I made the offer. So now you choose to slander me in this post after the fact, and, ultimately, fail in your attempt to rewrite history.

Congratulations on taking a step backwards.

[Nick66]

Originally Posted by anitram

Do you practice in the US? I wasn't aware that you did?

I haven't practiced in the US since 2008 (and even then it was only in NY state and a very specialized area) and definitely would not be commenting on case law with this level of certainty - not necessarily with respect to this particular issue summarized in the paragraph above but just your general approach as a bit of a know-it-all about 50 jurisdictions in which I wasn't aware you were licensed? But to each his own I suppose.

Indeed, I went to law school in the US, and practiced there for several years. I've also taught (as an adjunct), US crim law & crim pro, and US con law, along with a few other courses.

And when I comment on legal matters here, I'm typically talking about broad, settled principles of American law, so jurisdictional differences really aren't an issue. If I thought different jurisdictions handled things substantially differently, I'd point it out. For example, if we were discussing the Colorado "gay wedding" baker case, I'd mention that while Colorado provides certain protections for GLBT's, other states don't.

But if you see me make a comment on a legal issue that you think is wrong, or is handled differently in different jurisdictions, by all means point it out. I'm sure there are things I could learn from you.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by redhill

Also, I don't want to minimize your experiences but it seems statistically impossible that you were grabbed in the crotch (especially in a way that caused physical pain) or otherwise sexually assaulted EVERY NIGHT BEFORE MIDNIGHT at a bar in college. There's no point in having a conversation if you're going to be that dishonest.

Thanks for calling me a liar.

How the hell would you know?

I'm talking about an average night, and yes, if you went to college in a college town (and keep in mind I was there 7 years because of law school as well) where binge drinking is rampant (ranked #1 in the country by the way), then you can only imagine what went on in bars. Because people would go to pre-drink before the pre-drink before the bar. It was rammed and sweaty and you'd get grabbed on the dance floor, by the bar, when offered drinks, etc. Not always by strangers, but by guys you were friendly with who were just drunk out of their mind and harmless in the sense that I wouldn't fear them attacking me but they nevertheless thought it would be fun/funny to grab at us.

You have no fucking clue what goes on for women, and the fact you would call me a liar just goes to show. And I am one of the lucky ones, I wasn't roofied like at least 3 friends of mine (luckily they had enough friends around to realize it and take them home), I wasn't raped, I didn't wake up in a strange place not remembering what happened to me. These were NOT isolated or rare events. Piss off if you think we're being dishonest. How the hell would you ever fucking know?

[anitram]

Originally Posted by Nick66

But if you see me make a comment on a legal issue that you think is wrong, or is handled differently in different jurisdictions, by all means point it out. I'm sure there are things I could learn from you.

I'm a useless securities and corporate finance lawyer, so not much I'd consider myself an expert in, speaking of the topics usually covered here.

[redhill]

Originally Posted by anitram

Thanks for calling me a liar.

How the hell would you know?

I'm talking about an average night, and yes, if you went to college in a college town (and keep in mind I was there 7 years because of law school as well) where binge drinking is rampant (ranked #1 in the country by the way), then you can only imagine what went on in bars. Because people would go to pre-drink before the pre-drink before the bar. It was rammed and sweaty and you'd get grabbed on the dance floor, by the bar, when offered drinks, etc. Not always by strangers, but by guys you were friendly with who were just drunk out of their mind and harmless in the sense that I wouldn't fear them attacking me but they nevertheless thought it would be fun/funny to grab at us.

You have no fucking clue what goes on for women, and the fact you would call me a liar just goes to show. And I am one of the lucky ones, I wasn't roofied like at least 3 friends of mine (luckily they had enough friends around to realize it and take them home), I wasn't raped, I didn't wake up in a strange place not remembering what happened to me. These were NOT isolated or rare events. Piss off if you think we're being dishonest. How the hell would you ever fucking know?

So, to clarify, you were grabbed in the crotch in a way that caused intense physical pain every night before midnight at the bar in college?

To answer your question, I know that you were being dishonest because you were just dishonest multiple times in your previous post. Anyone who wants to read this thread can confirm that.

Oh, and I was roofied by a girl once and was also held down by a (very large) man at a party who told me that "he could rape me right now if he wanted to." I was being intimate with a girl I was dating when he rushed in the room and jumped on me. It was a harrowing experience and luckily I was able to get him off me. Shall I go on?

You're really failing here.

[Nick66]

Originally Posted by anitram

I'm a useless securities and corporate finance lawyer, so not much I'd consider myself an expert in, speaking of the topics usually covered here.

Still, a topic I know little about! At least beyond the basics. Most of what I know about securities & corporate finance law is that my colleagues who took those jobs out of law school made a lot more than I did as a prosecutor.

[anitram]

redhill - Funny how your experiences seem to be multiplying with every post...



https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/a...ights-activist

[anitram]

Originally Posted by Nick66

Still, a topic I know little about! At least beyond the basics. Most of what I know about securities & corporate finance law is that my colleagues who took those jobs out of law school made a lot more than I did as a prosecutor.

The $ is good, the hours are bad. The clients do all pay and are sophisticated, though often assholes. I did always find it more collegial though than my litigation (whether criminal or civil) peers did. It seemed to me like litigation really does breed an adversarial spirit which often made them actually dislike the other side's counsel. On the corporate side, you're all basically there to make rich people richer, nobody hates anybody so long as everybody is profiting. But that's just my somewhat cynical view.

[redhill]

Originally Posted by anitram

redhill - Funny how your experiences seem to be multiplying with every post...

Actually, there are several others I could point to as well. The point is that I wasn't getting all "hot and bothered" over two assaults....as there are a lot of other incidents I could have relayed. It doesn't advance the discourse to minimize others' experiences simply because they're of a different gender...nor does it help to exaggerate your own.

It's disgraceful that you choose to question my credibility (when every word is true) while actively being deceitful.

Why would you want to continue to step backward? Just admit that you lied and move on.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by redhill

Why would you want to continue to step backward? Just admit that you lied and move on.

Just keep calling me a liar, it's really advancing your point.

Bye, Felicia.

[redhill]

Originally Posted by anitram

Just keep calling me a liar, it's really advancing your point.

Bye, Felicia.

I'm good. Anyone who reads this thread will know.

[DaveC]

Originally Posted by redhill

I'm a sexist asshole. Anyone who reads this thread will know.

fixed.

[Hewson]

Originally Posted by redhill

I've been sexually assaulted twice and there was really nothing I could do about it unless I wanted to *really* push the issue.

I was at a nightclub once and a stranger sat on my lap, grabbed my crotch, and kissed me. It so happened that she was overweight which made it additionally uncomfortable to have her on my lap (and the only reason I mention it). I asked her to get off of me and then she kept making advances. I didn't press the issue other than to ask the bouncer to keep her away from me. He said "take her home and f*ck her, man".

Another time I was walking into a bar and a stranger grabbed my crotch in the entranceway. She grazed me in a painful way (guys know what I'm talking about) and I had to leave the situation. There was really nothing I could do during that encounter either. I could have made a fuss (if I had wanted to) but I doubt anything would have come of it.

Originally Posted by redhill

Oh, and I was roofied by a girl once and was also held down by a (very large) man at a party who told me that "he could rape me right now if he wanted to." I was being intimate with a girl I was dating when he rushed in the room and jumped on me. It was a harrowing experience and luckily I was able to get him off me. Shall I go on?

Originally Posted by redhill

Actually, there are several others I could point to as well. The point is that I wasn't getting all "hot and bothered" over two assaults....as there are a lot of other incidents I could have relayed..

You've led quite the life.

Serious question: when you were roofied, what did the girl do/hope to do. Can a guy who is roofied and passed out get "excited" so the female can take advantage?

[redhill]

Originally Posted by DaveC

fixed.

How exactly was I prejudiced or discriminating towards women? Any reasonable person would say that it was the exact opposite.

[DaveC]

Originally Posted by redhill

How exactly was I prejudiced or discriminating towards women?

for fuck's sakes. you spent several posts repeatedly calling a woman on the internet whom you don't know at all a liar for discussing her experiences with sexual harassment and assault and then proudly claiming some sort of victory as a result.

Any reasonable person would say that it was the exact opposite.

i don't think you're qualified to speak on anything a "reasonable person" would say or do.

[MrsSpringsteen]

What the hell...? Yeah I really don't like calling someone a liar about their personal experiences. But it does mirror what is done to people who are harassed or assaulted in society at large.

[redhill]

Originally Posted by DaveC

for fuck's sakes. you spent several posts repeatedly calling a woman on the internet whom you don't know at all a liar for discussing her experiences with sexual harassment and assault and then proudly claiming some sort of victory as a result.

Sad. The woman you're talking about was, factually, being deceptive and making false claims about statements in my posts. Do you expect me to let that stand? I don't care if society at large accepts that these days - I don't. The proof is in the thread. She also called into question my credibility after sharing some incredibly personal experiences.

i don't think you're qualified to speak on anything a "reasonable person" would say or do.

I've been quite reasonable in all my posts.

[Diemen]

Originally Posted by DaveC

fixed.

Unnecessary and rude.

And redhill, you might not be as good as you think. You’re calling her a liar on a semantic technicality. Yes, she wasn’t painfully grabbed by the crouch every night (you’ll note, however, that Anitra never actually claimed that). But you’re acting as if that’s the only issue, and ignoring the experiences of regular sexual harassment she is sharing.

That’s not “good.”