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Old 01-22-2018, 03:54 PM   #501
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Rather than the Redhill pile-on that seems to be gathering steam, couldn't this awesome bunch of intelligent and caring fym folk discuss his points... intelligently and respectfully?
I've just read all his posts and he hasn't attacked anyone or tried to diminish the gravity of what women are fighting against. It seemed all he was doing was asking we throw another ingredient in the pot for discussion because this is a complex and multi-faceted subject.
Why does that create such angry responses and condescension?
I've got similar stories and worse. One in particular involving verbal stuff at work that led me to not being able to work in a section of the hospital I worked in. Another at a bar where the aggressor was a very large, very friendly man who I had enjoyed talking to, flirting with even, but hated what happened next.
Adding more layers doesn't take away from the conversation does it?

Re the millennia men have used power to dominate and control women... this is simply factually correct. Perhaps it wasn't always the case (evidence from Malta suggests a 'mother goddess' society run by women - incredibly successfully it seems).
But it appears the advent of agriculture ties in with the male domination of society. For the worse.
It's a massive conversation. And every step taken to improve the situation is good. But adding nuance to the conversation shouldn't be shunned should it?
I agree with this. I can't say I agree with everything redhill has said in this conversation...he's often not an agreeable person, and some of what he's said is unsupported... BUT, I don't think it's fair to question his motivations for saying it (calling him an MRA type, suggesting he's a liar, etc) absent the evidence that would suggest he's speaking out of bad intent. And as far as I can see he hasn't personally attacked anyone in this thread, just some push back to the way he's being treated.

Seems to me like it's stuff from other threads pouring into this one.
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Old 01-22-2018, 04:05 PM   #502
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Seems to me like it's stuff from other threads pouring into this one.
Probably. I'm far too out of the loop to understand all those tensions. Redhill seems fine to me. I note cobl likes to do the condescension countdown for Nick's posts. But the biggest condescension here sure as hell isn't coming from nick.

Is sad to see. The right-of-centre political posters have all vacated fym now. And for a bunch of them that's a good thing. But often there were just these immense pile-ons based largely on differing opinions alone.
Now we're left with a presumably fairly homogeneous group politically. But still the pile-ons and attacks...
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Old 01-22-2018, 04:11 PM   #503
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This is absolutely untrue. There are no "hate speech" laws, at least criminal laws, in the US. And if some legislature tried to pass one, it would quickly be deemed unconstitutional.



"Western society" is actually among the least homogenous, and most diverse, in the world, depending on how you wish to define homogeneous. But in many places it's really not a melting pot...more like a tossed salad.

Otherwise, I think you make some good points. As much as I agree with many of Mama Cass's comments in this thread, I do think she's painting a slightly rosier picture of France than reflects the situation as i know it. That's not to say it doesn't reflect her personal experiences, and clearly she loves the culture. But from I can see there's a lot of tension there, and a rising anti-immigrant sentiment (like much of Europe). One the whole though I think she's accurate in saying that in many ways it's a more progressive society than the US. Though in other ways, more conservative.

I know a lot of French people who fear that France is losing its identity and culture, and as far as I know it's an ongoing discussion there. But she'd know better than I, I'm in the UK.
that's what i was thinking of re. hate speech/freedom of speech, as i've seen so many times that restricting freedom of speech or prosecuting hate speech would be unconstitutional...

thanks, appreciate your comments Nick66!

there are a lot of tensions here for sure, but it's incredibly complex... for instance, France is big on "assimilation" (i.e. adopting French culture) in terms of its immigration policy - this, in my experience, is soooo different to the UK (and i imagine the US) - it's a very alien concept to me, which it's taken a while to get my head around... for instance, wearing religious symbols in schools and public positions was banned back in 2005 (although this is to do with "laicite" (secularism) rather than assimilation - i am thinking out loud stream of thought and rushing, so my writing is a bit muddled lol)- i struggled so much with this as i couldn't understand why people couldn't just "coexist", but the theory behind it is that it promotes equality, especially in schools, where all kids can take part fully and equally in all activities (sports etc.), unhindered by religion, and in public positions, to avoid discrimination when dealing with the public... i am sure this has its upsides and downsides, but assimilation is huge in France - i get tons of grief (in jest mostly), for being British, but once people realise you're well integrated, speak the language and are willing to be part of French society that's all that matters... it's interesting compared to the UK where "multiculturalism" is promoted, whereas France wants everyone who becomes a French citizen to adopt French culture as their own (assimilation)... i found this really hard to get my head around, but have come to see it as offering a sense of "belonging" which i appreciate... i guess this is where things can clash, where communities reject French culture and the language... so maybe this is what is happening today in some part of French society, maybe assimilation has failed and a new approach is necessary perhaps... (huge subjects/issues really!)

i feel people claiming France has "lost its identity" are so out of touch with reality - they have to ask themselves the question, what is France? who are the French? France goes beyond the mainland and is one of the few former "empires" to have kept some of its colonies, and these French overseas territories are an integral part of France... French former colonies (e.g. Algerie, Indochine, Africa) fought for France in the various wars, many came to France as French citizens and their descendants are rightly French... so France has many faces...

re. the banlieus, of course there are problems there, as anywhere where there is a high concentration of young people and high levels of unemployment, but i stand by my statement that education is key... even if children aren't academic, there are other more vocational training programmes open to young people, apprenticeships etc. Drug-related crime in the banlieu is also a huge problem - it's a whole local economy of its own, and i wonder if say cannabis at least was legalised here, maybe this could help somehow... also, i feel more support is required at community level and for families... but this is happening - i saw a great report after New Year, about one of the roughest Paris banlieu with high crime rates, and clashes between young people and the police - a group of mothers came together to create an association, and they worked closely with the council, the fire brigade and police, and got organised, and went on patrol new years eve to stop the kids getting out of hand and setting fire to things, cars, rubbish etc., so as to avoid escalation between the young people and the police - and i thought that was amazing! and it was effective - there were no cars set alight in that estate that night, compared to other areas of Paris... it just brought it home so much, that these women and the dads too don't want the violence, and they're terrified of things getting out of hand and their kids landing in real trouble with the police when things escalate... and their aim was to encourage respect... and the presence of these mums and friends' mums on patrol was really powerful, and i think community/family interventions like this, from within the communities themselves are a fantastic approach...
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Old 01-22-2018, 04:16 PM   #504
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But that's where you're wrong. It's not the speech that's a crime.
Jesus, you're the worst type of troll.

You just quoted me saying hate crimes are a thing (they ARE, contrarian trollman). Hate crimes can include speech if the speech is not protected by the first amendment. There's a wide array of speech not protected by the first amendment.


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You said "hate speech is a crime in the US."
And when I said that, I was speaking very generally to a non-American, who doesn't need a fucking nuanced description of our legal system. It's convoluted enough as is. Stop being an asshole.

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But it's not. Hate speech is it's own very real, but distinct thing. And it is completely distinct. And it's not a "side fact".
It's not "distinct" in any facet. It's very broadly described and can refer to a wide array of topics. And fuck off for telling me what my argument was and wasn't.

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You used the term as a point in response to something Mama Cass was talking about that France has...suggesting that America has the same kind of prohibition, when it certainly does not.
And if you've been keeping up with our discussion, it's been made clear... by god I'm not going to go and quote it, you can go read it yourself... I have already described the difference in culture to be far less so societal and far more so in the form of government and legislation. So, yes, it's a "side fact" reminding mamacass that we in the US do have our own form/take of what she's describing. It just doesn't work the same way, legally. But typically, in most cases where it matters, justice will find similar lengths of reprimanding (via private, civil, or criminal means) depending on what was said.


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It's not a small or insignificant difference, it's a big one. And subject to quite a bit of debate. There's a huge amount of difference between enhancing a penalty for someone motivated by hate and making speech itself a crime.
In the context of whether or not people are racist homophobic in France, it's a small difference. If I called someone at work a "lazy good for nothing illegal spic" or something equally egregious, I would societally face about the same penalty as I would in France. If I said "I'm going to kick your dirty [repeat slur] teeth in if you don't go back to your country," there's just as much chance that I spend time in jail in the US as I do in France. And, after writing that, I think it's quite clear that you probably don't understand their hate speech laws at all, anyways.


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It's fine, it's a common misconception a lot of people have. You'd be surprised at the number of people who think hate speech is illegal in the US (particularly on college campuses of all places). Which is why it's important to point it out.
Boy, do you know how obnoxious it is to sit on your fake chair of knowledge and proclaim "oh, it's a common mistake?" People tell you off for shit like this all the time.

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Are you the one who's a rocket scientist? If said something wrong about ascending nodes or parabolic orbit or minimum escape velocity I wouldn't double down if you told me I was wrong.
You're right, I'm a "rocket scientist" and you're a contrarian. I shouldn't have attempted to respond, as I would be trying to out-contradict a contrarian.


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See my comments above. He's wrong about this.

Troll.
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Old 01-22-2018, 04:16 PM   #505
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Again, how do you know what women put up with on a regular basis? Are you telling me that most women have been grabbed in the crotch in a public place multiple times in their life?
They've talked to me about it, seen it with my own two eyes. I remember a particularly eye opening experience in college when I realized that almost 60% of my close female friends had been assaulted, raped, or molested in their lifetime, and those were the ones willing to open up.

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And that they would have very little recourse if it did happen? They could call the police and have the man immediately arrested without question. That wasn't an option to me either time I was assaulted. It would have been dismissed.
The facts don't back this up.
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Old 01-22-2018, 04:34 PM   #506
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You just quoted me saying hate crimes are a thing (they ARE, contrarian trollman). Hate crimes can include speech if the speech is not protected by the first amendment. There's a wide array of speech not protected by the first amendment.
Again, this isn't correct.

For example, you mentioned earlier "incitement to violence." Indeed, incitement to violence is generally not protected speech under the Constitution.

If someone said "Everyone go out and attack some people right now"...that would probably be incitement (but it's not entirely that straight forward).

And if someone said "Everyone go out and attack some Jews right now"...that could also be incitement to violence. But it's the incitement that would be illegal, unprotected speech...mentioning "Jews" isn't the illegal part in terms of speech. The racial motivation in making the comment is what gives the crime...incitement...a hate crime enhancement. But it's not the motivation even that's illegal...it's the action taken from that motivation that's illegal.

So insulting Jews or anyone else is protected under the Constitution. Hating Jews or anyone else is protected under the Constitution. Having racial animus is protected under the condition.

But if you commit a violent crime against someone and it can be proven you were motivated by that animus, you'll get an enhanced penalty for acting under that motivation. Not for the motivation itself. Not for the speech. For the hate motivated action you took. That's it.

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Jesus, you're the worst type of troll.

Stop being an asshole.

And fuck off for telling me what my argument was and wasn't.

Troll.
Wow.
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Old 01-22-2018, 04:38 PM   #507
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If I called someone at work a "lazy good for nothing illegal spic" or something equally egregious, I would societally face about the same penalty as I would in France
what penalty would you get for that in the US? in France, you could get a suspended sentence and a hefty fine at the very least... (racism doesn't have to be inciting violence to be an offence here)
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Old 01-22-2018, 04:40 PM   #508
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Wow.
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Old 01-22-2018, 04:40 PM   #509
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France is big on "assimilation" (i.e. adopting French culture) in terms of its immigration policy

what is France? who are the French? France goes beyond the mainland and is one of the few former "empires" to have kept some of its colonies, and these French overseas territories are an integral part of France... French former colonies (e.g. Algerie, Indochine) fought for France in the various wars, many came to France as French citizens and their descendants are rightly French... so France has many faces...
I've recently got into binge watching Scandi Noir. I've never been big on police procedurals, but theres's something about the cold, remote locations and the language that I find incredibly compelling.

Anyway, I recently watched one called "Midnight Sun" that featured a French police officer participating in the investigation of the murder of French national in the far north of Sweden. She was French, spoke perfect French, and acted like a Parisian cop, but was actually a North African immigrant as a child. Anyway, one of the local Swedes ask her what her nationality is, guessing Egyptian or Algerian, and she said "I'm French" and that shut the conversation down. She's French, that's it.

Loved that moment, and I think it sums up what you're saying.
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Old 01-22-2018, 04:41 PM   #510
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I've recently got into binge watching Scandi Noir. I've never been big on police procedurals, but theres's something about the cold, remote locations and the language that I find incredibly compelling.

Anyway, I recently watched one called "Midnight Sun" that featured a French police officer participating in the investigation of the murder of French national in the far north of Sweden. She was French, but was actually a North African immigrant as a child. Anyway, one of the local Swedes ask her what he nationality is, guessing Egyptian or Algerian, and she said "I'm French" and that shut the conversation down. She's French, that's it.

Loved that moment, and I think it sums up what you're saying.
that's exactly it!
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Old 01-22-2018, 04:46 PM   #511
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Wow.

Wow what? Look at the way you talk to people, dude. People typically just have longer fuses than me, but you irritate a lot of people with the way you talk to them.

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The fact that I'm struggling to respond to you in a timely manner in a civil discussion because of being irritated by him yet again is one thing. The fact that you're promoting him is another.
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Old 01-22-2018, 04:56 PM   #512
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The fact that I'm struggling to respond to you in a timely manner in a civil discussion because of being irritated by him yet again is one thing. The fact that you're promoting him is another.
i just agreed with him - i think your reaction (e.g. insults, asshole, troll) was a bit uncalled for tbh - i thought a solid discussion was being had!
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Old 01-22-2018, 05:03 PM   #513
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what penalty would you get for that in the US? in France, you could get a suspended sentence and a hefty fine at the very least... (racism doesn't have to be inciting violence to be an offence here)


Oh please! I have been called similar things in France, and *nothing* happened. There is not some grand society of people being arrested for insulting someone. There are numbers for this. I won't pretend to be an expert on it, as I don't live there. But I did get a chance to read up on it over the past few days. French hate speech laws are not as simple as you're describing. In most cases, the result in not criminal, but civil, much like in the US. The french laws just appear to offer more paths to criminal charge, say, against folks like the Westboro Baptist Church. Something that directly contradicts US free speech laws, but does not necessarily imply that society accepts these things.

In the US, you would face no criminal charge for what I've suggested, not by a long shot. You could, probably would, be fired from your job. If a history or enough of a case existed, a civil complaint could be filed, resulting in what are effectively "fines" that go to the victim. There is a robust societal architecture that wards off hate speech in the United States, it's just done differently than in France. The stark contrast is our first amendment, which protects people who use hate speech that otherwise causes no direct harm to someone. And, at that point, you're delving into a philosophical argument of what is more liberal... forcing people to allow other people to be free while taking away their freedom, or letting people run free with the risk of them impinging on someone else's freedom. That... that is an age old debate. How one country has chosen to tackle it versus the other does not mean their societies are unequal in regards to their views of social prejudice, the amount of prejudice existing in society, or how they respond to social prejudices.

If we trace back a couple of steps, I certainly did highlight a few areas where US society is dramatically different: guns and healthcare. Those are the obvious ones.
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Old 01-22-2018, 05:13 PM   #514
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If a history or enough of a case existed, a civil complaint could be filed, resulting in what are effectively "fines" that go to the victim.
I'm really sorry, but this isn't true either. There are no "civil fines" for someone calling you a racial slur. A "civil fine" would be as unconstitutional as a criminal penalty, as both would be imposed by the government.

Racial slurs are protected speech. Period. Except in very, very limited cases, in the US the Government cannot infringe on your freedom of speech. They can't pick and choose which speech is allowed and which is not. All they can do is put time, place and manner restrictions on how, when and where you express your speech in public spaces. But they can't police the content, with very narrow exceptions (and racial slurs are not among them).

Otherwise, yes you could be fired from your job. And rightly so.
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Old 01-22-2018, 05:14 PM   #515
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Oh please! I have been called similar things in France, and *nothing* happened. There is not some grand society of people being arrested for insulting someone.


obviously, if it was in a public place, with witnesses who were willing to back you up, you could have filed a complaint with the police - as the victim, it would be up to you to pursue it (unless someone else reported it, or the perpetrator dropped themselves in it) and then the police and the prosecutor would decide whether to take it further or not

jeesus do you have to be so defensive all the time?

ps- i should clarify my "suspended sentence and hefty fine at the very least" - didn't word it too well - basically, you can first have a warning with what we call a "sursis" (roughly suspended sentence) i.e. a period of a year or 3 years or whatever in which, if you repeat the offence, then you will then get gonged for the initial fine, and then an extra fine on top for the second offence... so yeah, you might not initially have a fine, but if you do it again, they will come down heavy on you... i don't know what the technical equivalent terms would be for that in English (but in more serious cases, you can be given the fine directly - obviously it depends on the severity of the case)

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In the US, you would face no criminal charge for what I've suggested, not by a long shot. You could, probably would, be fired from your job. If a history or enough of a case existed, a civil complaint could be filed, resulting in what are effectively "fines" that go to the victim. There is a robust societal architecture that wards off hate speech in the United States, it's just done differently than in France.
yet you still can't give me one concrete example of a high profile case?
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Old 01-22-2018, 05:57 PM   #516
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I'm really sorry, but this isn't true either. There are no "civil fines" for someone calling you a racial slur. A "civil fine" would be as unconstitutional as a criminal penalty, as both would be imposed by the government.

Racial slurs are protected speech. Period. Except in very, very limited cases, in the US the Government cannot infringe on your freedom of speech. They can't pick and choose which speech is allowed and which is not. All they can do is put time, place and manner restrictions on how, when and where you express your speech in public spaces. But they can't police the content, with very narrow exceptions (and racial slurs are not among them).

Otherwise, yes you could be fired from your job. And rightly so.

Continue to keep ignoring my words and skewing them to your condescending arguments. You're a waste of time.
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Old 01-22-2018, 06:09 PM   #517
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Continue to keep ignoring my words and skewing them to your condescending arguments. You're a waste of time.
How is simply stating the law as it stands "condescending"? You've made some flat out incorrect representations of US law in this thread that are misleading to anyone reading....don't get upset that someone is correcting you.

I've told you when I thought you had some good points, and pointed out where I think you're wrong...and remained civil with you throughout, despite you calling me a "troll", "asshole", "waste of time" and telling me to "fuck off". Personal insults and vitriol are not an argument. You're a smart guy, surely you can express yourself better than this, even if you don't like what I'm saying or how I'm saying it.

And and I can't help sort of chuckle at this scene where a rocket scientist in the UK tells someone in France they're wrong about France and a lawyer they're wrong about the law. No one is infallible (I know I'm not), and you're entitled to your opinion, but you should back it up with facts, not venom. Again, no one here is arguing with you about rocket science, and if you told me something about it, I'd have the good sense to listen.
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Old 01-22-2018, 06:23 PM   #518
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French hate speech laws are not as simple as you're describing
pretty simple really - another example, when we had problems with the racist neighbour, another neighbour, who was also having problems (the nasties were terrorizing the whole community, so it was a rite of passage of sorts into the local community for us lol ), asked for an official mediator to help deal with the situation, mainly to get an official involved and get everything recorded formally by the council in writing, and the mediator chose his words very carefully and would only refer to the nasty wife as "psychologically fragile" - he couldn't use the term "folle" (for "mad", "crazy", "insane") for instance or anything pejorative in this public context as that would publicly undermine her human person (we have laws for that too) - so make of that what you will too!
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Old 01-22-2018, 06:25 PM   #519
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I learn a lot from fym threads. Knowledgeable clever people from around the world who know lots of stuff i don't. So i love it when a nick or anitram comes on and presents facts that clear up some argument or another.
That isn't trolling or condescending or being contrarian. It's just conversing in facts.
And by god some of the folk calling nick contrary (not LN7 mind you) have had no qualms cutting strips off me in various threads if I've said something factually incorrect or highlighted my ignorance about something.
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Old 01-22-2018, 06:34 PM   #520
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LN7, please refrain from the personal insults and attacks.
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