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Old 01-22-2018, 08:53 AM   #461
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How does it make me part of the problem?

I think the conversation should be had, but I don’t think they are the same, I think you’re convoluted the issue by trying to equate the two.

Grabbing a stranger in a bar:

With men vs women it’s often about power and intimidation
With women vs men it can be about power, but I also think it can be about believing that we want them to be more aggressive, or a reaction to being groped themselves on a regular basis.

So I think we do an injustice by trying to make them the same when one is more than not a result of the other.
That's some pretty convoluted thinking there.

What's going on in someone's mind doesn't matter, what matters is what they do. Sexual assault is sexual assault, no matter the motivation or what you're thinking when you do it, or you social conditioning, irrespective of the genders of the people involved.

The "injustice" is suggesting that they're not the same. It doesn't happen to men as often as it does to women, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken just as seriously when it does.
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Old 01-22-2018, 08:54 AM   #462
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How does it make me part of the problem?

I think the conversation should be had, but I don’t think they are the same, I think you’re convoluted the issue by trying to equate the two.

Grabbing a stranger in a bar:

With men vs women it’s often about power and intimidation
With women vs men it can be about power, but I also think it can be about believing that we want them to be more aggressive, or a reaction to being groped themselves on a regular basis.

So I think we do an injustice by trying to make them the same when one is more than not a result of the other.
If we want equality, then why shouldn't they be equated? I thought equality was the goal.

Also, how do you know what it's about?

In the first instance I mentioned, my take was that she was drunk and knew she could get away with it. It seemed a bit of a power play based on her actions and general behavior.

In the second instance I mentioned, she was drunk, seemed horny, and thought it was OK.

It wasn't. Regardless of speculation of what was going on in their minds, it doesn't change the fact that what happened was wrong.

Also, why are you always one of the ones to step in and disagree with people? I think you need to choose your battles more carefully as otherwise, you wind up being the boy who cries wolf.
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Old 01-22-2018, 09:06 AM   #463
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That's some pretty convoluted thinking there.

What's going on in someone's mind doesn't matter, what matters is what they do. Sexual assault is sexual assault, no matter the motivation or what you're thinking when you do it, or you social conditioning, irrespective of the genders of the people involved.

The "injustice" is suggesting that they're not the same. It doesn't happen to men as often as it does to women, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken just as seriously when it does.


I’m not speaking to if it’s assault or not, nor am I making excuses for any side, nor am I saying it shouldn’t be taken seriously, I’m just talking to the point that they don’t belong in the same conversation.
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Old 01-22-2018, 10:15 AM   #464
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If we want equality, then why shouldn't they be equated? I thought equality was the goal.

Also, how do you know what it's about?

In the first instance I mentioned, my take was that she was drunk and knew she could get away with it. It seemed a bit of a power play based on her actions and general behavior.

In the second instance I mentioned, she was drunk, seemed horny, and thought it was OK.

It wasn't. Regardless of speculation of what was going on in their minds, it doesn't change the fact that what happened was wrong.

Also, why are you always one of the ones to step in and disagree with people? I think you need to choose your battles more carefully as otherwise, you wind up being the boy who cries wolf.



Redhill: at any point, were you worried that these women would/could possibly rape and murder you?
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Old 01-22-2018, 10:30 AM   #465
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Redhill: at any point, were you worried that these women would/could possibly rape and murder you?
Before he answers, can I just ask what that would have to do with whether he was assaulted or not?

Would a woman need to feel like she could be raped or murdered for her assault to be valid?
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Old 01-22-2018, 10:35 AM   #466
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Redhill: at any point, were you worried that these women would/could possibly rape and murder you?
What a ridiculous and nonsensical question. What about my post suggests that I was elevating those events to such a level? I think I know what you're getting at...and I hope it's not as sad a line of reasoning as I fear.
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Old 01-22-2018, 11:29 AM   #467
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Also, why are you always one of the ones to step in and disagree with people? I think you need to choose your battles more carefully as otherwise, you wind up being the boy who cries wolf.


If that’s what you think is going on here, then you’re sadly mistaken.

How can I be crying wolf?
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Old 01-22-2018, 11:38 AM   #468
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If we want equality, then why shouldn't they be equated? I thought equality was the goal.
One has an institutionalized and societal aspect to it, the other doesn’t.

Yes, assault is assault, but that’s not the entirety of the conversation we’re having.
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Old 01-22-2018, 11:42 AM   #469
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If we want equality, then why shouldn't they be equated? I thought equality was the goal.

There aren’t enough :roll eyes: in the world for this.
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Old 01-22-2018, 11:50 AM   #470
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which bits do you mean? i am talking from my own experience here, and general knowledge of the country and its laws...

we've had some pretty black and white experiences here - our neighbour was actually prosecuted for racial abuse, just words - we had no clue it was an offence at the time as it was the kind of thing we were used to in the UK, but the police decided to prosecute... that was pretty eye-opening, hence learning about insults and what is/isn't permitted in terms of freedom of speech etc... in fact, the guy actually hit another neighbour with his car wing mirror during the incident, only the police didn't pursue the physical assault, but only the verbal abuse, which was antisemitic and racist language to a non-Jewish person... so it was all pretty fascinating to see how serious they take verbal abuse and antisemitism here!

thanks for accusing me of lying though, i mean, wow

I didn't accuse of you lying. I told you that you were wrong. Hate speech is a crime in the US. Hate crimes do get prosecuted. Much like in the US, people in France are still generally more liberal in urbanized centers, and more conservative in suburban and rural populations.

What I was really calling you out on, though, was when you made mention of students and grants and what have you. You painted a picture based upon your own experience that there's a family element in France that contributes to 18+ students that is nonexistent in the U.K. and US. Under what premise can you make such a statement? I've attended universities in all three locations. I'm also a 25 year old who was financially supported by family until age 23, and only chose to take loans to lessen the burden on my family to continue schooling. You seem to have depicted a false picture here.

Greek life in the US has a bad reputation. Rightfully so, with the general behavior of hazing, disorderly conduct, and mistreatment of women. You see it in films, and there's something quintessentially American about those fraternities. It has an awful reputation in the U.K., and it has an awful reputation in France. However, guess what? They do the exact same shit over there. They just call it something else. Sports clubs in the UK quite literally participate in the same awful behaviors, they just aren't branded in a movie-like culture. The same behaviors were clearly present with the band at that university. Only in a frat party would I ever imagine someone putting their testicles on a girl passed out drunk and taking a picture.

Your notion that french culture is more progressive or more respectful to what's right is bullshit. From nights out, I can tell you that I felt like I was in the US when I went to a bar and the employees were all attractive slim women with big boobs and practically no clothes worth of a uniform. And clearly all around the bar, women were the objects and men were running the show.



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meh, it also helps to speak the actual LANGUAGE (as i know you don't) if you want to have insight into a country, especially before completely dismissing someone who is completely bilingual (despite apparently having a Jane Birkin accent ) and who has spent more than half their life living and working in the country over the years, studied the language in-depth, specialised in French history, French foreign policy, international relations, French philosophy, blah blah and is fully integrated into French society (oh and who also bears grudges)


And clearly you've developed into french society (for shunning me for not speaking the language on a two month stay - forgive me). And clearly you have a french bias.

But bottom line, there are the haves, and there are the have nots. Western society is a lot more homogenous than you're agreeing to.
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Old 01-22-2018, 11:55 AM   #471
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What a ridiculous and nonsensical question. What about my post suggests that I was elevating those events to such a level? I think I know what you're getting at...and I hope it's not as sad a line of reasoning as I fear.


What I’m getting at is that women live in a more dangerous world than most men can imagine. Once above a certain income level, nearly all violence and murder directed at women is at the hands of an intimate partner. Men do not live and conduct and negotiate their lives under similar duress.

This does not negate what you felt was sexual assault. What it does is add another dimension to a female’s experience of something similar.
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Old 01-22-2018, 12:18 PM   #472
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Hate speech is a crime in the US..
This is absolutely untrue. There are no "hate speech" laws, at least criminal laws, in the US. And if some legislature tried to pass one, it would quickly be deemed unconstitutional.

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Western society is a lot more homogenous than you're agreeing to.
"Western society" is actually among the least homogenous, and most diverse, in the world, depending on how you wish to define homogeneous. But in many places it's really not a melting pot...more like a tossed salad.

Otherwise, I think you make some good points. As much as I agree with many of Mama Cass's comments in this thread, I do think she's painting a slightly rosier picture of France than reflects the situation as i know it. That's not to say it doesn't reflect her personal experiences, and clearly she loves the culture. But from I can see there's a lot of tension there, and a rising anti-immigrant sentiment (like much of Europe). One the whole though I think she's accurate in saying that in many ways it's a more progressive society than the US. Though in other ways, more conservative.

I know a lot of French people who fear that France is losing its identity and culture, and as far as I know it's an ongoing discussion there. But she'd know better than I, I'm in the UK.
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Old 01-22-2018, 12:52 PM   #473
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One has an institutionalized and societal aspect to it, the other doesn’t.

Yes, assault is assault, but that’s not the entirety of the conversation we’re having.
I'm confused. First you indicate that men being assaulted or falsely accused shouldn't be part of the conversation...and now you're indicating that you want to ensure the entire conversation is had?
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Old 01-22-2018, 12:53 PM   #474
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There aren’t enough :roll eyes: in the world for this.
Illuminating.
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Old 01-22-2018, 12:55 PM   #475
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What I’m getting at is that women live in a more dangerous world than most men can imagine. Once above a certain income level, nearly all violence and murder directed at women is at the hands of an intimate partner. Men do not live and conduct and negotiate their lives under similar duress.
On the whole, I agree. I do know a man who was subject to physical aggression by his female partner. With that said, he would push her verbally until even the most composed person might attack. She was ultimately charged with battery after numerous such instances.

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This does not negate what you felt was sexual assault. What it does is add another dimension to a female’s experience of something similar.
It's not a feeling. Those instances, legally speaking, are clear examples of sexual assault. There's no gray area or interpretation there. When a stranger comes up to you and unwantedly grabs your genitals on purpose, that's most definitely sexual assault.
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Old 01-22-2018, 01:04 PM   #476
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I agree, “felt” was the wrong word to use.
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Old 01-22-2018, 01:11 PM   #477
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I'm confused. First you indicate that men being assaulted or falsely accused shouldn't be part of the conversation...and now you're indicating that you want to ensure the entire conversation is had?


I’m not going to play these games with you, I know you’re smarter than this.
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Old 01-22-2018, 01:14 PM   #478
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This is absolutely untrue. There are no "hate speech" laws, at least criminal laws, in the US. And if some legislature tried to pass one, it would quickly be deemed unconstitutional.
Yeah, we are far, far more liberal in a classical sense with free speech laws, but you absolutely go out and incite violence or defame someone etc., and if you do so from a hate perspective, it's a crime. On top of that, countless institutions deal with this sort of thing the American way. Like it or not, it's pretty standard practice to voluntarily fire/expel/suspend/fine workers over hate speech.


Quote:
"Western society" is actually among the least homogenous, and most diverse, in the world, depending on how you wish to define homogeneous. But in many places it's really not a melting pot...more like a tossed salad.
I was describing the homogeneity as country to country. Overall society in France is similar to the US and the U.K.. Obviously I also also see a clear di/trichotomy of internal society.
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Old 01-22-2018, 01:43 PM   #479
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Illuminating.
As are your MRA-tinged posts.
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Old 01-22-2018, 01:44 PM   #480
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Yeah, we are far, far more liberal in a classical sense with free speech laws, but you absolutely go out and incite violence or defame someone etc., and if you do so from a hate perspective, it's a crime. On top of that, countless institutions deal with this sort of thing the American way. Like it or not, it's pretty standard practice to voluntarily fire/expel/suspend/fine workers over hate speech..
Defamation is not a crime, it's a civil tort, no matter the motivation. You can't be criminally prosecuted for defamation in America, even if you do it from a "hate perspective."

Again, there are no "hate speech" laws in the US, and there's no "hate speech" exception to the Constitution. In fact it's one of the few things the SCOTUS has pretty much been unanimous on.

There are hate crime enhancements to existing statues, which call for increased penalties for crimes motivated by certain reasons (e.g. racial animus). But it's not the same as a prohibiting "hate speech". In fact, even in crimes with a hate crime enhancement, it's not the speech that enhances the penalty, it's the motivation...the speech can merely be evidence of the hateful motivation. There must be an underlying crime accompanying the hateful motivation, and all the elements of that crime must be met PLUS you must prove hateful motivation (generally, motivated by animus towards someone's sex, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc).

For example, battery is a crime.

If I hit you with a baseball bat, that's battery.

If I hit you with a baseball and I'm motivated by racial animus, that's battery, with a hate crime enhancement (meaning, you could get a harsher sentence). If I call you the N word while I'm beating you, that's evidence that I'm motived by racial animus, but calling you the name in itself doesn't mean it's a hate crime.

But most importantly, if I merely call you the N word without physically attacking you, I haven't committed a crime at all. Because calling someone a hateful word is as protected under the Constitution as engaging in political speech or any other protected speech.

That's all very different than "hate speech" laws in places like France, where simply using hateful or even antisocial language can be a crime in itself.

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On top of that, countless institutions deal with this sort of thing the American way. Like it or not, it's pretty standard practice to voluntarily fire/expel/suspend/fine workers over hate speech..
Well of course. Private institutions and individuals have their own ways of dealing with what they regard as hate speech, but they don't have the Constitutional limits the government has. So yeah, if I use the N word on Interference, Diemen could bounce me (and rightly so) but the US Government couldn't throw me in jail (and rightly so).
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