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Old 01-17-2018, 09:31 PM   #441
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mama, back on the earlier bit though, you made a point about how France has laws etc. against sexism and the sort and that's how it differs from the US. Prior, I made a point about how the cultures are a lot more similar than most let on (a global "western culture").

You say the folks who exhibit the -isms and -phobias are just the assholes. You do realize that's the same thing here, right? Look at voting splits. Some 25% of the people in France supported the ultra-nationalist candidate. By no means does that mean every single one is sexist/racist, etc., but we can use the Le Pen crowd as a rough measure of "the assholes." Well, in the US, Trump carries a base of around 33%. Those are "the assholes" here.

The U.K. has "assholes" too. I can't quantify them as easily, as no relatable example exists.

Much like I tried to explain to our Australian Interference compatriots a few dozen political threads ago, they have assholes, too.
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:04 PM   #442
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mama, back on the earlier bit though, you made a point about how France has laws etc. against sexism and the sort and that's how it differs from the US. Prior, I made a point about how the cultures are a lot more similar than most let on (a global "western culture").

You say the folks who exhibit the -isms and -phobias are just the assholes. You do realize that's the same thing here, right? Look at voting splits. Some 25% of the people in France supported the ultra-nationalist candidate. By no means does that mean every single one is sexist/racist, etc., but we can use the Le Pen crowd as a rough measure of "the assholes." Well, in the US, Trump carries a base of around 33%. Those are "the assholes" here.

The U.K. has "assholes" too. I can't quantify them as easily, as no relatable example exists.

Much like I tried to explain to our Australian Interference compatriots a few dozen political threads ago, they have assholes, too.
oh yeah i'm aware of that, sure lol!

the differences i meant between the US/UK and France are mainly in terms of social structure and how it is valued (like (free) education, healthcare, welfare etc. which are being eroded in the UK and extremely under threat in the US, but which is one of the foundations of French society)...

plus in France, we are used to paying huuuuge amounts of social contributions and taxes to fund the social security system (which is also seen as the "fraternity" aspect, to contribute within your means to help those who are vulnerable), which is the antithesis of the US and UK right now...

there is also a huge difference re. freedom of speech - in France freedom means saying anything as long as it doesn't hurt others, discriminate etc. (i'm completely oversimplifying)- so even sexist, homophobic, racist, antisemitic words are a crime... i think that's a great thing as words are really powerful... so any verbal assholes here can be called out and sanctioned by law, which i think helps stop things from escalating...

i think it's great because you can't really insult someone in public, you can't say someone is "crazy" because that "undermines the human person", and there are laws for that, so technically you could face charges, if the person decides to go to the police and there are witnesses... it might sound weird to Americans/Brits - i know i was really surprised at first, but i think it helps people interact a little more respectfully... the French are actually incredibly polite and take offence when people don't reciprocate, little things like going into the post office or boulangerie and saying "Bonjour" to everyone in the queue, acknowledging people, giving a handshake to strangers, or the bises to friends and acquaintances... you don't get that in Britain - you try to say "hello" to a stranger you pass when out on a country walk in Britain (or even when i pass Brits here in France) and they freak out and mumble and scurry away as tho you're a serial killer, but to the French, if you didn't say hello it would be really rude... it's little detailed things like that where i see the differences... in basic human interactions... so when i see some of the talk coming out of the US, it makes my hair stand on end as that just wouldn't be possible here technically - there would be lawsuits lol...

also in the family context, in Britain, when i reached 18 and went off to study, i was financially independent from that point on, and i guess now kids have their student loans, whereas here in France, kids who have grants are independent, but for those families who don't qualify for grants (if income is too high), it's the parents who look after their kids financially, for years and years lol, so the financial burden is on the parents, rather than the kids, and i kind of like that, better than saddling the kids with huge debt (and there are tax breaks for parents who do that)... anyway, so loads of little differences really... and different ways of seeing society, social responsibility etc... but i must stop rambling on...
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:06 PM   #443
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So much of what you're saying either just isn't true or isn't as black and white as you're making it seem.
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:07 PM   #444
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I don't invoke what I do as a means of being smarter than someone else. Gotta remember, I'm just another person.
yes but you clearly have brains (even though you attend dubious parties )
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:09 PM   #445
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So much of what you're saying either just isn't true or isn't as black and white as you're making it seem.
which bits do you mean? i am talking from my own experience here, and general knowledge of the country and its laws...

we've had some pretty black and white experiences here - our neighbour was actually prosecuted for racial abuse, just words - we had no clue it was an offence at the time as it was the kind of thing we were used to in the UK, but the police decided to prosecute... that was pretty eye-opening, hence learning about insults and what is/isn't permitted in terms of freedom of speech etc... in fact, the guy actually hit another neighbour with his car wing mirror during the incident, only the police didn't pursue the physical assault, but only the verbal abuse, which was antisemitic and racist language to a non-Jewish person... so it was all pretty fascinating to see how serious they take verbal abuse and antisemitism here!

thanks for accusing me of lying though, i mean, wow
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Old 01-18-2018, 06:27 AM   #446
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So much of what you're saying either just isn't true or isn't as black and white as you're making it seem.
meh, it also helps to speak the actual LANGUAGE (as i know you don't) if you want to have insight into a country, especially before completely dismissing someone who is completely bilingual (despite apparently having a Jane Birkin accent ) and who has spent more than half their life living and working in the country over the years, studied the language in-depth, specialised in French history, French foreign policy, international relations, French philosophy, blah blah and is fully integrated into French society (oh and who also bears grudges)
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:47 AM   #447
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Oh, for sure. Women being "allowed" to have sexual feelings, and to like sex is a fairly new concept in the grand scheme of things.

Good girls don't!
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:55 AM   #448
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And La Marseillaise is responsible for quite possibly the greatest moment in cinema history!



Can't believe there's France bashing on Interference! What's next, Freedom Fries!!!!
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Old 01-22-2018, 02:50 AM   #449
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I've already stated - many pages ago - my stand on this, Irvine and Nick have said it better than I did.
But I do flinch (in a good way) at anitram's point that my focus on all of this is on how it affects men. That's not my whole focus, of course, but admittedly it has been a major focus. And I'm reflecting on that.
And while I disagree with much of the cartoon rage of cobl's posts I am affected by his call to listen. I am aware of several women I know well and respect on many levels, who are tearing holes in those defending aziz's right to privacy in this matter. I love these people, these women, and they are passionate about this. And I can't seem to agree with them.

On the other hand I am very close to several women who could have basically said what mama cass said, word for word. A handful of those women are rape victims. Which proves rape is far far FAR too fucking prevalent (none of the attackers have been brought before the courts - only one of those women told authorities). But it also proves some women believe the solution is in empowering women to use their authority, while simultaneously weeding out the asshole men and re-educating the rest of us men about how no means no.

Here's the sticky bit for me though. I'm autistic and have never read subtle signals well. So no has always meant no to me. And man, the amount of times I've had the conversation with women where they've told me that, on that particular occassion, no meant yes and that they wanted to be pursued, convinced, etc. One particular friend of mine wanted me to force myself on her. That was what she was hoping would happen. And I didn't because, you know, who would? But yeah, I read that one wrong.

My point? Human sexuality is about as nuanced and confusing as it gets. It is so much more complicated than some of the reactions being posted in the media at the moment.
Yet anitram and cobl are right. It's just that I can't see they're right for every person, or every situation (nor am I saying you two are professing to be).

One thing's for certain - the fact the conversation is being had is brilliant. I wish it could happen without the aziz-style shame/privacy/judgement bomb thing though.
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Old 01-22-2018, 06:19 AM   #450
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I have to wonder why women are generally able to sexually assault men and make false claims that they have been assaulted or worse...without fear of any consequences.

For this to be a complete conversation, those two issues clearly need to be addressed as well.
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Old 01-22-2018, 07:19 AM   #451
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With regard to "false rape" claims, it's instructive to remember that not every unprovable, or unsupported claim of sexual assault is a false one, or that every claim of sexual assault that legally isn't is the result of malicious or irresponsible intent. Though obviously some are, and in the most egregious cases there have indeed been consequences (though you're correct that there's typically no legal consequences for it, for a variety of reasons).

There's no evidence that out and out false sexual assault claims make up a sizeable percentage of such claims (between 3-10%, depending on which statistics you believe). Though it certainly does happen, and people who do so should obviously face consequences.
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Old 01-22-2018, 07:50 AM   #452
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I have to wonder why women are generally able to sexually assault men and make false claims that they have been assaulted or worse...without fear of any consequences.


First, what makes you believe these two things exist at any kind of scale that belongs in this conversation?

Secondly, sexual assault perpetrated by women on men is of the smallest percentage. Now harassment is something different, and it does exist, but don’t believe it’s a necessary part of this conversation.
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Old 01-22-2018, 07:51 AM   #453
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I've been sexually assaulted twice and there was really nothing I could do about it unless I wanted to *really* push the issue.

I was at a nightclub once and a stranger sat on my lap, grabbed my crotch, and kissed me. It so happened that she was overweight which made it additionally uncomfortable to have her on my lap (and the only reason I mention it). I asked her to get off of me and then she kept making advances. I didn't press the issue other than to ask the bouncer to keep her away from me. He said "take her home and f*ck her, man".

Another time I was walking into a bar and a stranger grabbed my crotch in the entranceway. She grazed me in a painful way (guys know what I'm talking about) and I had to leave the situation. There was really nothing I could do during that encounter either. I could have made a fuss (if I had wanted to) but I doubt anything would have come of it.

I certainly understand how behavior changes when drinking so I let those situations lie but the double standard has always been a source of irritation since. These events happened in my younger years when I was going out regularly. I also understand that the more you put yourself in certain situations, the greater the propensity for such incidents to occur. That doesn't justify the aforementioned actions, though.

I've also known a couple of girls who thought it was amusing (and confided in me about it) to make false claims about their ex having raped them because they were scorned. These guys reputations were ruined around town and I knew the truth.

I feel most comfortable speaking from personal experience as opposed to commenting on celebrity hearsay...and from what I've seen there is a horrifying double standard that gets very little airplay. The fact that the issue is discussed in mostly one-sided fashion reduces credibility and I really think we need to be talking about the whole picture.

I'm not writing this to diminish (even one iota) what female victims experience when there is an actual assault (or worse).

Based on what I've seen, however, I have to say that women have incredible power to make false claims and get away with assault. I hate to be "that guy" but someone has to say it.
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Old 01-22-2018, 08:08 AM   #454
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I've been sexually assaulted twice and there was really nothing I could do about it unless I wanted to *really* push the issue.
I'm sorry for what happened to you. No one should have to tolerate sexual assault, and it should never be made light of, despite the gender of the victim.

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I was at a nightclub once and a stranger sat on my lap, grabbed my crotch, and kissed me. It so happened that she was overweight which made it additionally uncomfortable to have her on my lap (and the only reason I mention it). I asked her to get off of me and then she kept making advances. I didn't press the issue other than to ask the bouncer to keep her away from me. He said "take her home and f*ck her, man".

Another time I was walking into a bar and a stranger grabbed my crotch in the entranceway. She grazed me in a painful way (guys know what I'm talking about) and I had to leave the situation. There was really nothing I could do during that encounter either. I could have made a fuss (if I had wanted to) but I doubt anything would have come of it.

I certainly understand how behavior changes when drinking so I let those situations lie but the double standard has always been a source of irritation since. These events happened in my younger years when I was going out regularly.
Again, what happened to you here is completely unacceptable. That the people who assaulted you may have been drinking is absolutely no excuse.

But I'm going to be frank with you...what you're describing would not be prosecuted in most jurisdictions, even if we were a woman. I'm not saying such cases never result in an arrest, but it's very, very rare that such a case would actually be prosecuted, for a variety of reasons.

And in any event, as you said, you never reported either incident to the police, so it's hard to say what would have happened had you did (though I have a pretty good idea).

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I've also known a couple of girls who thought it was amusing (and confided in me about it) to make false claims about their ex having raped them because they were scorned. These guys reputations were ruined around town and I knew the truth.
Yes, it happens. Human beings can do awful, vengeful things, and women are no exception. But it's rare.

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I feel most comfortable speaking from personal experience as opposed to commenting on celebrity hearsay...and from what I've seen there is a horrifying double standard that gets very little airplay. The fact that the issue is discussed in mostly one-sided fashion reduces credibility and I really think we need to be talking about the whole picture.

I'm not writing this to diminish (even one iota) what female victims experience when there is an actual assault. Based on what I've seen, however, I have to say that women have incredible power to make false claims and get away with assault.
There is definitely a double standard when it comes to male victims of sexual assault, there's no doubt about that. Partially because of gender stereotypes, partially because most victims of sexual assault are women. Doesn't excuse it, but there it is.
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Old 01-22-2018, 08:13 AM   #455
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First, what makes you believe these two things exist at any kind of scale that belongs in this conversation?

Secondly, sexual assault perpetrated by women on men is of the smallest percentage. Now harassment is something different, and it does exist, but don’t believe it’s a necessary part of this conversation.
How do you know? If there is very little recourse for a man, it happens a lot more than we know about.

Yes, this issue belongs in the conversation and thinking otherwise makes you part of the problem.
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Old 01-22-2018, 08:14 AM   #456
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I'm sorry for what happened to you. No one should have to tolerate sexual assault, and it should never be made light of, despite the gender of the victim.



Again, what happened to you here is completely unacceptable. That the people who assaulted you may have been drinking is absolutely no excuse.

But I'm going to be frank with you...what you're describing would not be prosecuted in most jurisdictions, even if we were a woman. I'm not saying such cases never result in an arrest, but it's very, very rare that such a case would actually be prosecuted, for a variety of reasons.

And in any event, as you said, you never reported either incident to the police, so it's hard to say what would have happened had you did (though I have a pretty good idea).



Yes, it happens. Human beings can do awful, vengeful things, and women are no exception. But it's rare.



There is definitely a double standard when it comes to male victims of sexual assault, there's no doubt about that. Partially because of gender stereotypes, partially because most victims of sexual assault are women. Doesn't excuse it, but there it is.
I appreciate the reasonable and understanding reply.
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Old 01-22-2018, 08:24 AM   #457
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How do you know? If there is very little recourse for a man, it happens a lot more than we know about.


I know it happens, I posted a story similar to yours awhile back. But apply the same logic, how many stories of women being groped in a bar go unreported? It’s still a very small percentage.
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Old 01-22-2018, 08:27 AM   #458
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I know it happens, I posted a story similar to yours awhile back. But apply the same logic, how many stories of women being groped in a bar go unreported? It’s still a very small percentage.
The reality is that we have no way of knowing. I would guess, based on my experiences, that it's a very high percentage for men.

For the record, I'm not complaining about these experiences or trying to paint a "woe is me" picture. I'm simply recalling some events and expressing how that has impacted my thoughts about this issue and the double standard that exists.
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Old 01-22-2018, 08:44 AM   #459
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Yes, this issue belongs in the conversation and thinking otherwise makes you part of the problem.

How does it make me part of the problem?

I think the conversation should be had, but I don’t think they are the same, I think you’re convoluted the issue by trying to equate the two.

Grabbing a stranger in a bar:

With men vs women it’s often about power and intimidation
With women vs men it can be about power, but I also think it can be about believing that we want them to be more aggressive, or a reaction to being groped themselves on a regular basis.

So I think we do an injustice by trying to make them the same when one is more than not a result of the other.
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Old 01-22-2018, 08:53 AM   #460
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The reality is that we have no way of knowing. I would guess, based on my experiences, that it's a very high percentage for men.

For the record, I'm not complaining about these experiences or trying to paint a "woe is me" picture. I'm simply recalling some events and expressing how that has impacted my thoughts about this issue and the double standard that exists.


So you think it’s as high for men as women?

There’s a double standard, but mostly applied by men, I mean look at the bouncer’s response to your situation. That’s why trying to equate these is dangerous.
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