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Old 01-17-2018, 04:57 PM   #421
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whoa didn't register that bit, nope, definitely a cultural thing... "taught not to want sex"?
those damn puritans...
Oh, for sure. Women being "allowed" to have sexual feelings, and to like sex is a fairly new concept in the grand scheme of things.

Good girls don't!
Girls keep their legs together!
Girls must stay pure!
Girls have to do x
Girls have to do y

AD FUCKING NAUSEUM.
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Old 01-17-2018, 05:08 PM   #422
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Oh, for sure. Women being "allowed" to have sexual feelings, and to like sex is a fairly new concept in the grand scheme of things.

Good girls don't!
Girls keep their legs together!
Girls must stay pure!
Girls have to do x
Girls have to do y

AD FUCKING NAUSEUM.


must have its roots in religion, surely? especially the submission issue... which is maddening as the supposed "christians" appear to live as they please but just want to inflict their rules on everyone else

(i only ever experienced these attitudes in a limited church context in the past, in the UK, which i strongly rejected - thought i was pretty liberated as a Brit, but then i came to France and feel quite the prude in comparison - it's nice though, to feel you can just embrace it, celebrate it, be pragmatic about it, and not be judged or frowned upon in society)
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Old 01-17-2018, 05:10 PM   #423
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Old 01-17-2018, 05:25 PM   #424
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(i only ever experienced these attitudes in a limited church context in the past, in the UK, which i strongly rejected - thought i was pretty liberated as a Brit, but then i came to France and feel quite the prude in comparison - it's nice though, to feel you can just embrace it, celebrate it, be pragmatic about it, and not be judged or frowned upon in society)
I don't know if you're meaning to do this, but you are depicting France as some kind of egalitarian utopia, which even a quick glance at the news will reveal is not the case. It's great you appreciate the culture, but I don't think it's helpful to place any one country on a pedestal like this.
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Old 01-17-2018, 05:29 PM   #425
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I don't know if you're meaning to do this, but you are depicting France as some kind of egalitarian utopia, which even a quick glance at the news will reveal is not the case. It's great you appreciate the culture, but I don't think it's helpful to place any one country on a pedestal like this.


This I entirely agree with.

Having done my time in France, in Italy, and in the U.K., I would say all of those plus the US are more or less the same.

I only notice it because I sat and watched the criticisms of the US, only to see a lot of the same shit elsewhere. We live in a globalized world. It's only policy that's genuinely different (healthcare, guns, etc.).
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Old 01-17-2018, 05:40 PM   #426
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I don't know if you're meaning to do this, but you are depicting France as some kind of egalitarian utopia, which even a quick glance at the news will reveal is not the case. It's great you appreciate the culture, but I don't think it's helpful to place any one country on a pedestal like this.
of course it's not a utopia, but i think it's awesome that, as a country, it embraces equality as one of its key values (with liberty, fraternity), and these values are enshrined in its constitution, taught in schools, and are the foundations of society... from my own experience, i can only fairly compare it with Britain, so discovering France and what it stands for as a country has been a revelation... i've spent the past few months brushing up on my French history and culture, so that's why it's so fresh in my mind, and i have to say it's been really nice and quite inspiring delving into all this stuff again (been years and years), it's so different from my experience of the UK, and come on, when France drew up its declaration of human rights in the 1700s what was your country doing? i think France deserves to be on a pedestal
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Old 01-17-2018, 05:43 PM   #427
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This I entirely agree with.

Having done my time in France, in Italy, and in the U.K., I would say all of those plus the US are more or less the same.

I only notice it because I sat and watched the criticisms of the US, only to see a lot of the same shit elsewhere. We live in a globalized world. It's only policy that's genuinely different (healthcare, guns, etc.).
pah you were only here for a few months - it's an acquired taste - it has literally taken me over 20 years to feel this way

and for a start, France and the UK are chalk and cheese...
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Old 01-17-2018, 05:45 PM   #428
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of course it's not a utopia, but i think it's awesome that, as a country, it embraces equality as one of its key values (with liberty, fraternity), and these values are enshrined in its constitution, taught in schools, and are the foundations of society... from my own experience, i can only fairly compare it with Britain, so discovering France and what it stands for as a country has been a revelation... i've spent the past few months brushing up on my French history and culture, so that's why it's so fresh in my mind, and i have to say it's been really nice and quite inspiring delving into all this stuff again (been years and years), it's so different from my experience of the UK, and come on, when France drew up its declaration of human rights in the 1700s what was your country doing? i think France deserves to be on a pedestal


Well the US was a bunch of British, Spanish, and French colonies in the 1700s... so...

You do seem to be joining in on the dick measuring competition though. Why does France being first to the lunch hundreds of years ago matter right now? As it stands, France still has the same issues of inequality in society as the US does. Racism, sexism, xenophobia, and homophobia are all still prevalent there.
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Old 01-17-2018, 05:50 PM   #429
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of course it's not a utopia, but i think it's awesome that, as a country, it embraces equality as one of its key values (with liberty, fraternity), and these values are enshrined in its constitution, taught in schools, and are the foundations of society
It's one thing to embrace it in a constitution, quite another to enact or realize it. France has demonstrable equity issues when it comes to gender, race, and religion, whether you measure it by economic data or social polling. And all of this has been in the news in the recent past.

The inequity is not at the level of the United States, I'll freely admit that, but it certainly does exist.
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Old 01-17-2018, 05:50 PM   #430
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on a more serious note though - everyone has a chance here, to free education, from primary to postgrad, based purely on merit (so no student debt) universal healthcare, a social safety net, affordable housing, state housing, help with rent for low incomes and students... that alone is pretty incredible compared with many other countries...
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Old 01-17-2018, 05:59 PM   #431
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It's one thing to embrace it in a constitution, quite another to enact or realize it. France has demonstrable equity issues when it comes to gender, race, and religion, whether you measure it by economic data or social polling. And all of this has been in the news in the recent past.

The inequity is not at the level of the United States, I'll freely admit that, but it certainly does exist.
no, religion is out of the picture as it is separate from the state...

race is handled very differently here, compared to say the UK - here in France, wherever you were born, whatever colour or ethnicity you are, if you're French, you're French - as a second-generation immigrant in the UK, i can tell you that this was certainly not the case in the UK - if you looked different, you certainly weren't perceived as British... you should check out James Baldwin's documentary I Am Not Your Negro, as it has interesting insight into the differences between France and the US in that respect...

anyway, the conversation here was about women and sexuality, and the differences between perceptions in France and the US, and i was merely describing how these values are part of the fabric of French society, and talking about our cultural differences in this respect

whether these values are always achieved or not, in an imperfect society, they're at least something amazing to aspire to, no?

also, am still incredibly relieved that our version of Trump didn't get in, in last year's elections, or things would be pretty devastating here right now, so nothing wrong with appreciating something good while it lasts...
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Old 01-17-2018, 06:04 PM   #432
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Racism, sexism, xenophobia, and homophobia are all still prevalent there.
among assholes, sure, but these things are not tolerated and are completely unacceptable - we have strict laws against all of these things, even against racist, sexist, xenophobic, and homophobic language (which is where we clash with the US interpretation of freedom of speech for instance)

ps- i was taking the piss with my "what was your country doing" comment btw

anyway, this is off-topic, so stop making stoopid comments and making me have to educate you
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Old 01-17-2018, 07:52 PM   #433
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race is handled very differently here, compared to say the UK - here in France, wherever you were born, whatever colour or ethnicity you are, if you're French, you're French - as a second-generation immigrant in the UK, i can tell you that this was certainly not the case in the UK - if you looked different, you certainly weren't perceived as British... you should check out James Baldwin's documentary I Am Not Your Negro, as it has interesting insight into the differences between France and the US in that respect...
With all due respect, this is a lot of theoretical talk and does not bear out in reality necessarily. Go to the suburbs/exurbs of Paris and ask the youth of Algerian and Moroccan descent how "French" they are made to feel by white Francophones or how French they feel given the fact they live in largely ghettoized slums. Or let's take a look at astonishingly high and record-breaking numbers of Jews emigrating from France due to fairly widespread anti-semitism which is on the rise. And no, I don't think that French feminists are somehow the paragon of truth here either.

A much worse party than the Republicans led by Trump could easily have been elected in France AND has solid backing of a significant minority. What the French liberte, egalite, fraternite stands for in theory is all nice and great but you could write similarly beautiful-sounding things about the American constitution yet here we are.
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Old 01-17-2018, 08:41 PM   #434
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With all due respect, this is a lot of theoretical talk and does not bear out in reality necessarily. Go to the suburbs/exurbs of Paris and ask the youth of Algerian and Moroccan descent how "French" they are made to feel by white Francophones or how French they feel given the fact they live in largely ghettoized slums. Or let's take a look at astonishingly high and record-breaking numbers of Jews emigrating from France due to fairly widespread anti-semitism which is on the rise. And no, I don't think that French feminists are somehow the paragon of truth here either.

A much worse party than the Republicans led by Trump could easily have been elected in France AND has solid backing of a significant minority. What the French liberte, egalite, fraternite stands for in theory is all nice and great but you could write similarly beautiful-sounding things about the American constitution yet here we are.
yes, there you are, and yes, we were very close to being there too, which is why i am grateful that we didn't get there yet, and the French rallied to do a protest vote and block her - i am well aware how precarious the situation was last year... not sure if Le Pen can be considered worse than the current Republicans to be honest... and right now the extreme right is thankfully in complete disarray and is split...

of course there are so many social issues that are a mess, i would be blind to pretend there weren't, but this wasn't really the place for me to go into it, as i was trying to focus on the equality aspect and how it shapes male/female interactions, and also like to focus on the positives - but i know it's not cool to be positive in this place...

there's plenty i could add re. problems in France, the lack of provision for refugees is a huge one - it is a complete disgrace how things are being handled, but on the upside, masses of people are filling the gap left by the government and bringing daily aid, food, clothing, shelter to refugees, and while the state response is shitty, the people's response give me hope that it's not all bad... in my day to day, i see the practical application of "fraternity" in so many little ways, among my friends and in the community, and it inspires me

you're making the assumption that France is white, it is not - take a look at our government, our celebrities, our writers, our philosophers and thinkers, our workforce... the young people in the banlieus are French, and have the same rights as white French kids - they can get out of poverty thru education and many actually do... at least they have the means available to them if they want to have a go! my son works with a French-African lad from the "banlieu", he has no family help, and has three part-time jobs and is at med school training to be a doctor and doing really fucking well - he is incredible, but he is able to get a grant from the state, get help with his rent, and his jobs give him extra cash - the opportunities are there for young people and there is so much support to help them succeed (without bankrupting them in the process)! i'm proud that the social security and education system here can help young people like this!

there is a real problem with radicalisation, and identity among some young second-generation immigrants in the banlieus, who are rejecting their French nationality, i don't know how this can be solved, but i think it comes down to individual families and maybe starts in the home and in the local community...

i don't want to go on and on as this thread isn't the place for it, but it isn't a pissing contest and these are huge issues, and you have picked easy obvious targets... antisemitism etc (there are masses of convictions for antisemitism btw - it is taken extremely seriously here... just this past week a publisher was planning to reissue Celine's texts (they're considered antisemitic) and due to public outry, publication was pulled - people power)...

oh and re. race, that was a personal observation - a French friend of mine in fact a few of them have the same background as i, being second-generation immigrants from the colonies - my French friends' experiences (from former French colonies) are worlds apart from my own (second-generation from a former British colony) - they are considered French, no questions asked, whereas i was always treated as a foreigner in the UK and experienced racism on pretty much a daily or at least weekly basis in 80s Britain (would clash pretty much everyday with the same kids on my way to school) - and i thought that was amazing!

re. feminism i'm not even saying i agree 100% with the Deneuve letter - there were some pretty obnoxious comments in there for a start, but i understand where some of the main views were coming from, and thought i would try to talk about it in here and try to discuss our cultural differences... sorry for being happy about shit
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Old 01-17-2018, 08:46 PM   #435
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anyway, this is off-topic, so stop making stoopid comments and making me have to educate you

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Old 01-17-2018, 08:55 PM   #436
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and come on, when France drew up its declaration of human rights in the 1700s what was your country doing?


that declaration of human rights was drafted in 1789, and the text was highly influenced by the US declaration of independence that was written in 1776. thomas jefferson even helped lafayette write it.
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Old 01-17-2018, 09:03 PM   #437
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jeesus that was actually a joke - i am well aware you are a bloody rocket scientist
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Old 01-17-2018, 09:04 PM   #438
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that declaration of human rights was drafted in 1789, and the text was highly influenced by the US declaration of independence that was written in 1776. thomas jefferson even helped lafayette write it.
again, i was taking the piss and implying that the US was just finding its feet, but thanks

(maybe i should have referenced Clovis instead )
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Old 01-17-2018, 09:18 PM   #439
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jeesus that was actually a joke - i am well aware you are a bloody rocket scientist

I don't invoke what I do as a means of being smarter than someone else. Gotta remember, I'm just another person.
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Old 01-17-2018, 09:23 PM   #440
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again, i was taking the piss and implying that the US was just finding its feet, but thanks

(maybe i should have referenced Clovis instead )
lol nobody could dispute you on clovis for sure.
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