Tipping Point - Sexual Harassment In America

[mama cass]

Nick66 you're making me feel nervous - i'm not used to you agreeing with me

[Irvine511]

on a happier note, you're REALLY making me sad that we've postponed a planned trip to France this summer. it is a wonderful, wonderful country, and i was eating up every word you were writing about it.

*le sigh*

[Nick66]

Originally Posted by mama cass

Nick66 you're making me feel nervous - i'm not used to you agreeing with me

Yeah...and an endorsement from me won't exactly win you any points here.

But still, very high quality posts. I've really enjoyed reading your perspective, incredibly refreshing.

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by Nick66

There was an interesting article I read recently about the differences between American and French feminism (including Americans relative tolerance for women in some countries being forced cover themselves, and the French disdain for it)

this is an interesting one, as the French Left itself has been split over this issue, taking the burkini as an example, i.e., between those who feel that women should be free to dress as they please and wear the burkini if they choose to do so, and those who feel it shouldn't be tolerated in France as it symbolizes the oppression of women which goes against the values of the Republic...

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

on a happier note, you're REALLY making me sad that we've postponed a planned trip to France this summer. it is a wonderful, wonderful country, and i was eating up every word you were writing about it.

*le sigh*

aw crap! hope you can get over here some time soon Irvine! xxx

[Nick66]

Originally Posted by mama cass

this is an interesting one, as the French Left itself has been split over this issue, taking the burkini as an example, i.e., between those who feel that women should be free to dress as they please and wear the burkini if they choose to do so, and those who feel it shouldn't be tolerated in France as it symbolizes the oppression of women which goes against the values of the Republic...

Obviously there's something to be said for countries and cultures being left to decide their own affairs, but that doesn't mean that those of us who are concerned with ending oppression of women world wide shouldn't feel free to speak out about it.

And there's also something to be said for adapting to the culture of the country you choose to live in. I'd never consider making the burqa, for example, illegal, I'm too much of a believer in freedom of speech for that. But I also understand the discomfort and even intolerance of the practice by people in France who view it as symbol of oppression (a sentiment I share). The fact that the left is split on this one has always puzzled me a bit. I understand the competing values...free speech, respect for other culture vs. wanting to empower women. But if your primary concern is the liberation of women as individuals, I'd think the choice would be easy. But given that there are many Muslim women who will embrace and defend the burqa, who am I to say?

Ultimately though it comes back to something you've mentioned several times...women's agency. If the practice is going to end, it will ultimately be up to the women of those countries to end it. The West only has the ability to make things worse.

[LuckyNumber7]

In France it's socially acceptable to whip out your testicles and put them on sleeping people at parties.

Or to show them during beer pong to distract your opponent.

[Nick66]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

In France it's socially acceptable to whip out your testicles and put them on sleeping people at parties.

Or to show them during beer pong to distract your opponent.

And in Korea the kids play dong chim on unsuspecting adults (as anyone who has taught English there will tell you).

Behaviour that would probably result in one or two inquiries in most other countries.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

In France it's socially acceptable to whip out your testicles and put them on sleeping people at parties.

Or to show them during beer pong to distract your opponent.

Was this not your American college experience?

Asking for a friend.

[mama cass]

am crying-laughing real tears!

[corianderstem]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

In France it's socially acceptable to whip out your testicles and put them on sleeping people at parties.

Or to show them during beer pong to distract your opponent.

[LuckyNumber7]

The best part was that it was the university band who was hosting the party, during the summer.

This one time, at band camp...

[cobl04]

Originally Posted by mama cass

anitram - if i recall correctly, you're a lawyer right? don't you think that men should have the right to a fair trial and let the courts apply the sanctions? the whole trial by media/twitter is disturbing to me

IF WOMEN DIDN'T HAVE SOCIAL MEDIA TO CALL MEN OUT THEN IT WOULDN'T HAPPEN AND WE'D BE BACK TO WHERE WE WERE AND THE MEN WOULD BE PAYING HUSH MONEY AND GETTING NO REPERCUSSIONS FOR THEIR SHIT BEHAVIOUR AND OTHER MEN WOULD BE LEARNING NOTHING.

Originally Posted by Nick66

I maybe a bit sarcastic at times (something I know I need to work on, but I feel like I give as good as I get), but...damn. "Right wing commentator"...."pathetic"...and which woman am I arguing with about her own experiences? I thought I laid out my comments (in a discussion with antiram) reasonably, and you come back with this?

You know, Cobbler, you're an interesting case...it's almost like there's two Cobblers. I've seen you make some pretty thoughtful posts on here. A while ago, you made a long one about some Aussie band you had seen at a club (I can't recall the name), and how good they were and how much it moved you and how it was one of the best nights of your life in terms of listening to music. You were so effusive in your praise that a few people gave you (good natured) shit about it I think. It was fucking beautiful...your sheer enthusiasm made me go to Youtube and listen to them (they were pretty good, and had a lot of charisma as I remember). I was actually going to reply, or send you a PM about it, because it was inspiring to read something stated so passionately yet eloquently....when you want to be you can be good writer. But then you later went and said something like the above and I thought, "well, yeah....never mind"

Very kind of you to say! And there's been times when I've enjoyed your posts a lot as well.

This is not one of them. Now is the time for men to listen. You ignored the rest of my post (fair enough I guess) but why can't more men take the path I have chosen? Instead of getting offended, or defensive, or nitpicky, or self-righteous, or devil's advocate, why can't more men go 'hmm, I might just take this time to reflect on myself, listen to what women are saying, and then reflect on how we can make a better world'?

Originally Posted by Irvine511

It seems that being a celebrity now renders women mute, powerless, and entirely without agency and dependent upon men to read their minds when hooking up with them in their Tribeca apartments. But at least there are internet publications that will run your story about a bad date with a wildly successful but possibly obnoxious male comedian.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/1...ww.google.com/

Irvine, how you have fallen in my view. What a view to take away from this article. Instead of going on the defence, why don't we have a discussion about how a lot of the things mentioned in this article sound pretty awful?

All the women that I love and respect are saying that the article is rife with behaviours that they recognise, behaviours that have repeatedly throughout their lives made them feel uncomfortable.

It's really disappointing to read a post from a poster as thoughtful as yourself that reads just like every other centrist reactionary on twitter.

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

This is the kind of thinking I can't support. To make the claim that a man might be branded a sexual predator for asking a woman out or holding a door is simply a tactic to delegitimize a very serious and important movement, an effort to depict women who have spoken up as hypersensitive or misandrist. No one is looking to spin awkward flirting into Weinstein-esque predatory behavior.

Things don't exist in a vacuum, iYup. Surely human intelligence has developed enough that we can have nuanced discussions about both of these things.

Of course the holding the door open thing is silly - Larry David sent it up brilliantly in the season of Curb just gone - but now is the perfect time to talk all sexism and misogyny, from the extremely serious Weinstein behaviours to all the little things. Because the little things are what solidify the attitudes that lead to the big things.

[cobl04]

Originally Posted by anitram

I think if you are talking about criminal sanctions, yes. But the court of public opinion has NEVER worked that way.

And even in the private workplace, if it is a well run place, there is no need for a man to go to trial to be sanctioned by Human Resources for sexual harassment. What happens subsequent to that action with respect to termination, going before labour boards or the courts is a separate matter. But I don't think the women should continue to be harassed until the guy is declared guilty by the courts.

I had a very astute law professor, who actually incidentally attended Yale Law together with Bill and Hillary and had some interesting insights, comment that we have come to expect the legal system to fix all of our social problems but that is neither what the legal system was designed to do nor what it is well suited to doing. The long history of sexual assault and harassment of women, which goes back to the beginning of time, can be dealt with in some extent by the law but that is really the last step, a blunt tool. What we are talking about now is how to change social attitudes, how to better raise our sons, how to look at structural issues within industries, etc. That should not be conflated with fair trials and criminal justice being doled out.

Separately I don't understand the constant references to Saint Meryl Streep. I have never written about her to my recollection, I don't watch movies because she is in them, hell I barely watch anything at all and have no idea how suddenly her name is being put forward as some sort of barometer for those of us concerned with sexual harassment. I don't give a flying fuck whom she supports, what she says or anything she thinks really.

Preach. I love your posts!!!

[Vlad n U 2]

I don't see what's particularly defensible about Ansari's actions - he's in his mid-30s and should know better, and especially when his work often concerns a lot of these very same issues. He's hardly a Weinstein-esque figure, and nobody is actually saying this.

[cobl04]

Exactly.

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by cobl04

Irvine, how you have fallen in my view. What a view to take away from this article. Instead of going on the defence, why don't we have a discussion about how a lot of the things mentioned in this article sound pretty awful?

All the women that I love and respect are saying that the article is rife with behaviours that they recognise, behaviours that have repeatedly throughout their lives made them feel uncomfortable.

It's really disappointing to read a post from a poster as thoughtful as yourself that reads just like every other centrist reactionary on twitter.

I think this sort of discussion has revealed some people's limits in their support for feminism. It's been fairly enlightening.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

I think this sort of discussion has revealed some people's limits in their support for feminism. It's been fairly enlightening.

I would also remark that some of the same people who seem to be so vocally concerned about the men this is affecting and premature judgment and branding them as predators etc are the same people who would (reasonably and appropriately) point out anytime we discussed BLM or racism that it's a distraction to discuss how this affects white people and how the worst thing about racism for some is that white people who may not be racist are made to feel racist or branded racist. But when we are discussing the analogous situation with women as the victims suddenly there is much more leeway to be applied to men?

As a woman, it does leave a bad taste in my mouth.

[Nick66]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

I think this sort of discussion has revealed some people's limits in their support for feminism. It's been fairly enlightening.

Well most people have limits in support of everything, including very laudable ideals. When you don't have limits, it's called extremism.

I'm a strong supporter of freedom of speech. But I recognise that it has limits...you can't directly incite people to violence, you can't distribute child pornography, you can't libel or slander someone, etc. If I was a free speech absolutist, and said that speech has no limits, and should be subject to no sanction, I'd be an extremist.

So depending on how you define "feminism", (and the definition has been the subject of some debate as of late) of course people are going to choose how far their support for it goes. If feminism means women should be treated equally to men under the law, with the same set of rights, I'm all for it. That should be a basic tenant of any society.

But the social media, "shut up and listen"/"always believe women all the time no matter what" feminism? Women as perpetual victims who should be treated as infants without agency feminism? Yeah, not on board with that. The latter in fact is the least feminist thing I can think of...and is part of the difference, for example, in American and French feminism (broadly speaking) that was being discussed earlier.

And yes, the discussion has been enlightening.

[cobl04]

Originally Posted by Nick66

But the social media, "shut up and listen"/"always believe women all the time no matter what" feminism? Women as perpetual victims who should be treated as infants without agency feminism? Yeah, not on board with that. The latter in fact is the least feminist thing I can think of...and is part of the difference, for example, in American and French feminism (broadly speaking) that was being discussed earlier.

This is you projecting, and not at all rooted in reality.

This movement is giving women the agency to call out things that have made them feel uncomfortable at best and assaulted or killed at worst.

How you are wrapping this up any other way is beyond me.