Tipping Point - Sexual Harassment In America

[Nick66]

Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen

That's an insult to victims of UNWANTED harassment and of assault.

Is there any other kind?

[anitram]

Originally Posted by Nick66

Excellent article. She makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, no. And from a Roman Polanski defender, so really no surprise there.

“Men have been sanctioned in their professions, forced to resign, etc., when their only wrongdoing was touching someone’s knee, trying to steal a kiss, talking about ‘intimate’ things during a professional dinner, or sending messages with a sexual connotation to a woman who wasn’t attracted to them,” they wrote.

Jesus Christ on a bicycle, YES men should be sanctioned for this. They mean to tell us that we, as women should not complain or have men sanctioned who send us sexual messages in the workplace when we are not attracted to them? These women are living in the wrong century.

And you are wrong for continuously focusing on how this is affecting men. It's the underlying theme of most of your posts on this matter and quite telling.

[cobl04]

condescending reply in 3, 2, 1......

[MrsSpringsteen]

I completely agree with anitram. When I read such posts by him I want to get on that bike with Jesus Christ and teleport myself to elsewhere...but I digress.

Yes Deneuve is a Polanski defender according to that article so total loss of respect for me there. I lose all respect for Meryl Streep when I see the photos and video of her standing O for him.

I think it's understood Nick that harassment is unwanted by definition.

[Nick66]

Originally Posted by anitram

Yeah, no. And from a Roman Polanski defender, so really no surprise there.

Well Meryl Streep and half of Hollywood (including many of new #metoo crusaders) have praised Polanski as well. No surprises there either. A good number of them, including the sainted Streep, turned away from the behaviour of the likes of Weinstein of decades. Then they had the temerity to do that pious and fake display at the Golden Globes. Turn over any stone in Hollywood and there's a decent chance you'll find a sexual harasser. But you'll definitely find hypocrisy under all of them.

Originally Posted by anitram

And you are wrong for continuously focusing on how this is affecting men. It's the underlying theme of most of your posts on this matter and quite telling.

And what does it tell you? That there's another POV on this other than your own? That the issue is more complex than the message you can convey in a Tweet? Wow...all I did was say the letter made sense (though yes, being from a celebrity, I gave it the weight is deserved).

And I disagree with your characterisation that I "continuously" and only focus on how this effects men. But even if I did, after all, men are half the population. If we're going to have a conversation (not a lecture, not a monologue) about this issue and the range of ways men and women interact, and what's acceptable, unacceptable, and those grey areas we're going to have to sort out, that necessarily involves how all that affects men. Of course it does. It won't work without men. You won't have lasting social change without considering how all this affects men because men are part of society. Only talking about one side works great when you're creating a meme, not when you want real solutions. I think the people who truly want change and don't simply want to jump on the hashtag of the moment understand that. I'm assuming you understand that, and if you nonetheless "continuously" only focused on how all this affected women, I wouldn't assume that you're uninterested in how sweeping social change impacts the other half of the population (though perhaps I'm wrong about that).

We've discussed everything from gun control to the nature of the American electorate on here, and I've always taken it as a given, anitram, that when you disagree with me on an issue you're doing it in good faith. I don't see the need to preface every comment I make on this issue with "sexual assault and harassment is wrong". Just as I don't see the need to preface every second amendment discussion with "it's wrong to shoot people." I hope you'd take it as a given that I condemn and deplore those things...as I've said I do. I've sent men inside for decades for rape and sexual assault, I understand the issues. How many people here have done that? (have you, Cobbler?)

But when you say it's "telling" that I'm apparently looking at this issue in a way you don't approve of, it makes me wonder if you're not only disagreeing with my opinion, but my motivation for having it (and you seem to be making assumptions on what my opinion is). This is when these kind of discussions fall apart.

Originally Posted by cobl04

if you sit any more on the fence it's going to disappear up your arse

What's wrong with sitting on the fence? I like fences.

Walking on one gives you balance. Stand on top of one and you can see both sides. Paint one and you learn karate. And if you get tired of all that, as you said you can sit on one.

The other uses you've imagined for one, I leave to your good offices.

[mama cass]

they've all been bloody Polanski defenders and Woody Allen defenders when it suits their careers - they're all bloody hypocrits

i wish people would stop using celebrities as a benchmark for life - mostly they're deluded fuckers who are out of touch with reality

[Nick66]

Originally Posted by mama cass

they've all been bloody Polanski defenders and Woody Allen defenders when it suits their careers - they're all bloody hypocrits

i wish people would stop using celebrities as a benchmark for life - mostly they're deluded fuckers who are out of touch with reality

This. The last thing I need from anyone in Hollywood is to be sermonised on how to live my life.

[cobl04]

Ohh fucking spare me Nick. Your fucking charade is as thin as a piece of paper. The italicised you, the strawmen hidden inside other strawmen, give me a fucking break.

Originally Posted by Nick66

Well Meryl Streep and half of Hollywood (including many of new #metoo crusaders) have praised Polanski as well. No surprises there either. A good number of them, including the sainted Streep, turned away from the behaviour of the likes of Weinstein of decades. Then they had the temerity to do that pious and fake display at the Golden Globes. Turn over any stone in Hollywood and there's a decent chance you'll find a sexual harasser. But you'll definitely find hypocrisy under all of them.

Really admirable that the side you have taken is "why didn't the HoLLyWoOd eLiTe call this out years ago oh that's right it's only ~~~fashionable~~~ now". Good on you for completely sidetracking the fucking issue at hand - men being arseholes to women - by taking the same coward bullshit stance of every incendiary right-wing commentator.



I couldn't give a fuck that they didn't call out Weinstein et al earlier. This movement is a revolution, and it's so necessary, that it shouldn't fucking matter.

If we're going to have a conversation (not a lecture, not a monologue) about this issue and the range of ways men and women interact, and what's acceptable, unacceptable, and those grey areas we're going to have to sort out, that necessarily involves how all that affects men. Of course it does. It won't work without men. You won't have lasting social change without considering how all this affects men because men are part of society. Only talking about one side works great when you're creating a meme, not when you want real solutions.

No. Wrong. Now is the time for men to shut the fuck up and listen, and then stay fucking quiet and reflect on their own behaviour, own up to it, and then go about affecting change quietly.

I've sent men inside for decades for rape and sexual assault, I understand the issues. How many people here have done that? (have you, Cobbler?)

I don't even know what this means? Are you a district attorney or police officer or something? What it is though is false equivalence. *I* have done this therefore *I* am on correct moral ground. Please.



Have I done it? No. But what I have done throughout my life is I have made women feel uncomfortable through the things I have said or the things I have done.



And, as I've learned more over the past two or three years - amazingly, by shutting up and just fucking listening - I have realised that I've fucked up on numerous occasions.



I can't change the past - but I can own up to it and commit to being a better person.



Which is why I find it so fucking pathetic that people like you, not just you, pick this as their hill to die on. You're really gonna look back on your death bed and be like "man, I'm so glad I argued with all those women about their own experiences" rather than trying to just be a better person?

[Nick66]

Originally Posted by cobl04

No. Wrong. Now is the time for men to shut the fuck up and listen, and then stay fucking quiet and reflect on their own behaviour, own up to it, and then go about affecting change quietly.

This "shut up and listen" thing is nothing more than a social media meme. Nothing is going to happen if it's "shut up and listen." It's going to take a dialogue, and men and women of good faith, on both sides, reasoning together about it. And whatever happens, it's certainly not going to happen "quietly". It's going to be painful, and there are going to be good things to come out of it, but a lot of pain, and some injustices as well. Like any (to use your word) "revolution".

Shut up and listen is for people who aren't serious...it's for people who want to rant, but really don't want to go about the hard work of actually making things better. In any event, social media is a blunt instrument, and is not the place for adjudicating these things (not that much can be done about it...that genie is decidedly out of the bottle).

Originally Posted by cobl04

I couldn't give a fuck that they didn't call out Weinstein et al earlier.

I know you don't.

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by anitram

Jesus Christ on a bicycle, YES men should be sanctioned for this.

anitram - if i recall correctly, you're a lawyer right? don't you think that men should have the right to a fair trial and let the courts apply the sanctions? the whole trial by media/twitter is disturbing to me

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by cobl04

I couldn't give a fuck that they didn't call out Weinstein et al earlier.

see, that bothers me, as it does re. Woody Allen

seeing actresses now saying they wish they hadn't worked with Woody Allen, and won't work with him again is coming across hollow to me - were they living under a rock? did they have no idea about his character? did they previously ignore all the serious allegations against him?

[Nick66]

Originally Posted by cobl04

Ohh fucking spare me Nick. Your fucking charade is as thin as a piece of paper….

…taking the same coward bullshit stance of every incendiary right-wing commentator.


…Which is why I find it so fucking pathetic that people like you, not just you, pick this as their hill to die on. You're really gonna look back on your death bed and be like "man, I'm so glad I argued with all those women about their own experiences" rather than trying to just be a better person?

I maybe a bit sarcastic at times (something I know I need to work on, but I feel like I give as good as I get), but...damn. "Right wing commentator"...."pathetic"...and which woman am I arguing with about her own experiences? I thought I laid out my comments (in a discussion with antiram) reasonably, and you come back with this?

You know, Cobbler, you're an interesting case...it's almost like there's two Cobblers. I've seen you make some pretty thoughtful posts on here. A while ago, you made a long one about some Aussie band you had seen at a club (I can't recall the name), and how good they were and how much it moved you and how it was one of the best nights of your life in terms of listening to music. You were so effusive in your praise that a few people gave you (good natured) shit about it I think. It was fucking beautiful...your sheer enthusiasm made me go to Youtube and listen to them (they were pretty good, and had a lot of charisma as I remember). I was actually going to reply, or send you a PM about it, because it was inspiring to read something stated so passionately yet eloquently....when you want to be you can be good writer. But then you later went and said something like the above and I thought, "well, yeah....never mind"

Be that as it may, you notice I never direct posts your way...ever. Only in response to you, which is usually some vitriol you've thrown my way. Maybe if you can find a way to engage, without this kind of venom, we can have a dialogue. But if you can't, why direct any comment towards me it all? If you're only going to engage me to insult and spit fire at me, isn't that the very definition of harassment? Or at a minimum, trolling someone?

Originally Posted by cobl04

Are you a district attorney or police officer or something?

My first job out of law school was as a prosecutor, and I spent a couple years in the sex crimes division.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by mama cass

i wish people would stop using celebrities as a benchmark for life - mostly they're deluded fuckers who are out of touch with reality

It seems that being a celebrity now renders women mute, powerless, and entirely without agency and dependent upon men to read their minds when hooking up with them in their Tribeca apartments. But at least there are internet publications that will run your story about a bad date with a wildly successful but possibly obnoxious male comedian.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/1...ww.google.com/

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

It seems that being a celebrity now renders women mute, powerless, and entirely without agency and dependent upon men to read their minds when hooking up with them in their Tribeca apartments. But at least there are internet publications that will run your story about a bad date with a wildly successful but possibly obnoxious male comedian.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/1...ww.google.com/

see i was bang on about the smelling salts a couple of pages back wasn't i

seriously, this is really depressing and maddening... and this is also what Deneuve is on about, how we need to get away from the cliches that women are helpless victims and men are predators in male/female interactions

i once had a friend who used to pull blokes incessantly on a night out, she was incredibly flirty, and would go home with complete strangers, but practically every time, at the point where the guy was naked in his flat, she would get cold feet and leg it... it was a bit of a running joke among us all as friends at the time, as we all thought her behaviour was incredibly risky, but at least she had the sense to realise she didn't want to go any further and get the hell out of there (ps - nothing horrible happened to her, she would literally just change her mind!)

[Irvine511]

You can withdraw consent at any time! I fully and totally support that.

This feels like withdrawing support after, you know, they performed reciprocal oral sex on each other. More than once.

I’m sorry she had a bad night and hopefully Aziz has learned from this and will be less entitled and selfish in the future, but I see no crime and no reason for this assassination attempt.

It’s this kind of snowflaking that will harm the #metoo movement.

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

You can withdraw consent at any time! I fully and totally support that.

This feels like withdrawing support after, you know, they performed reciprocal oral sex on each other. More than once.

I’m sorry she had a bad night and hopefully Aziz has learned from this and will be less entitled and selfish in the future, but I see no crime and no reason for this assassination attempt.

It’s this kind of snowflaking that will harm the #metoo movement.

[Irvine511]

By “support” I of course mean “consent.”

If she worked on the set of Master of None or is even in the same industry, this is a very different conversation. But she didn’t.

[BEAL]

So by that article there’s a 33% chance I’ll get into trouble if i tell my date tomorrow night that she looks nice/pretty.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by mama cass

anitram - if i recall correctly, you're a lawyer right? don't you think that men should have the right to a fair trial and let the courts apply the sanctions? the whole trial by media/twitter is disturbing to me

I think if you are talking about criminal sanctions, yes. But the court of public opinion has NEVER worked that way.

And even in the private workplace, if it is a well run place, there is no need for a man to go to trial to be sanctioned by Human Resources for sexual harassment. What happens subsequent to that action with respect to termination, going before labour boards or the courts is a separate matter. But I don't think the women should continue to be harassed until the guy is declared guilty by the courts.

I had a very astute law professor, who actually incidentally attended Yale Law together with Bill and Hillary and had some interesting insights, comment that we have come to expect the legal system to fix all of our social problems but that is neither what the legal system was designed to do nor what it is well suited to doing. The long history of sexual assault and harassment of women, which goes back to the beginning of time, can be dealt with in some extent by the law but that is really the last step, a blunt tool. What we are talking about now is how to change social attitudes, how to better raise our sons, how to look at structural issues within industries, etc. That should not be conflated with fair trials and criminal justice being doled out.

Separately I don't understand the constant references to Saint Meryl Streep. I have never written about her to my recollection, I don't watch movies because she is in them, hell I barely watch anything at all and have no idea how suddenly her name is being put forward as some sort of barometer for those of us concerned with sexual harassment. I don't give a flying fuck whom she supports, what she says or anything she thinks really.

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by anitram

I think if you are talking about criminal sanctions, yes. But the court of public opinion has NEVER worked that way.

And even in the private workplace, if it is a well run place, there is no need for a man to go to trial to be sanctioned by Human Resources for sexual harassment. What happens subsequent to that action with respect to termination, going before labour boards or the courts is a separate matter. But I don't think the women should continue to be harassed until the guy is declared guilty by the courts.

I had a very astute law professor, who actually incidentally attended Yale Law together with Bill and Hillary and had some interesting insights, comment that we have come to expect the legal system to fix all of our social problems but that is neither what the legal system was designed to do nor what it is well suited to doing. The long history of sexual assault and harassment of women, which goes back to the beginning of time, can be dealt with in some extent by the law but that is really the last step, a blunt tool. What we are talking about now is how to change social attitudes, how to better raise our sons, how to look at structural issues within industries, etc. That should not be conflated with fair trials and criminal justice being doled out.

Separately I don't understand the constant references to Saint Meryl Streep. I have never written about her to my recollection, I don't watch movies because she is in them, hell I barely watch anything at all and have no idea how suddenly her name is being put forward as some sort of barometer for those of us concerned with sexual harassment. I don't give a flying fuck whom she supports, what she says or anything she thinks really.

thanks for your insight!

but i don't understand, for instance, why Kevin Spacey is being deleted from his films, and his series suspended? were his victims fellow cast/crew members? if not, to me that is some kind of censorship and goes beyond the bounds of sanctions

i read an article today on the Deneuve (+99 other women) letter, and the author (male) felt that Weinstein etc had suddenly made him personally feel like a monster/predator/pig, etc., and he felt that the #metoo movement was risking becoming like Circe, turning all their enemies into beasts, and he was afraid, to show gallantry, to be complimentary to women... he wrote that so much progress has been made in male/female equality, so why go to war, why not handle sexuality as strong women and strong men and not as victims and predators, as equals, to achieve a peaceful coexistence between men and women

jeesus i look at my horses - i have 2 geldings, a recently castrated stallion and a mare - they all live together naturally in a free-ranging herd - she takes no shit from any of them - she is EPIC at slapdowns, one squeal from her and they are instantly subservient and give her their food which, in my opinion, is exactly how things should be