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Old 12-12-2017, 08:14 PM   #281
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I consider myself reasonably emotionally intelligent but it's still rather difficult to read someone's mind and intentions all the time. You can think someone's attracted to you when that's not the case. I'm coming from a place where I never think someone is, honestly. Humility and experience. But I guess some of these guys, and yes some women, think everyone is.

I'll just be honest, many of these guys being caught now are not what I consider physically attractive. Yes there's someone for everyone and it's subjective. But they have money and power, so they think that entitles them to have anyone they want and do what they want.

Women get in an Uber and we always have to fear if the guy is an assaulter or rapist. I've been lucky, I've met some really nice guys that way. Not dates or anything like that, but nice to talk to. Do guys get in an Uber and worry about that?
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:21 PM   #282
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i've worried about being possibly mugged/robbed in a taxi before, but never about being raped.

there was one time in my life where i was genuinely concerned that i was about to be raped, but i snuck away. i was also a teenager at the time so i've never had that feeling as an adult man.
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:27 PM   #283
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I consider myself reasonably emotionally intelligent but it's still rather difficult to read someone's mind and intentions all the time. You can think someone's attracted to you when that's not the case. I'm coming from a place where I never think someone is, honestly. Humility and experience. But I guess some of these guys, and yes some women, think everyone is.



I'll just be honest, many of these guys being caught now are not what I consider physically attractive. Yes there's someone for everyone and it's subjective. But they have money and power, so they think that entitles them to have anyone they want and do what they want.



Women get in an Uber and we always have to fear if the guy is an assaulter or rapist. I've been lucky, I've met some really nice guys that way. Not dates or anything like that, but nice to talk to. Do guys get in an Uber and worry about that?


Yeah, it’s not always easy, but I guess my point was you should have a good idea before leaning in for a kiss, if not communicate verbally. And just know, you never go grabbing things on strangers. That should be adulthood 101, but as we know, age doesn’t always equal adult.
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:34 PM   #284
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Yeah, it’s not always easy, but I guess my point was you should have a good idea before leaning in for a kiss, if not communicate verbally.
I don't think you should be kissing somebody that you're not with in the workplace under any circumstances. It's one thing if you are out socially on a date or drinks or whatever but I don't care what kind of attraction you think you feel, it does not have a place in the office. Especially when you have a supervisory role. It should be obvious.
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:38 PM   #285
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I don't think you should be kissing somebody that you're not with in the workplace under any circumstances. It's one thing if you are out socially on a date or drinks or whatever but I don't care what kind of attraction you think you feel, it does not have a place in the office. Especially when you have a supervisory role. It should be obvious.


Yeah sorry, I wasn’t speaking specifically to your scenario or the workplace, just in general.

Should have been more clear.
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Old 12-13-2017, 12:03 AM   #286
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I think these conversations and the examples being given and discussed is what we all need to be doing and learning from. And we need to go deeper than talk about acceptable actions versus unacceptable actions.

Anitram's examples are horrendous but fairly ubiquitous - I've certainly seen similar situations and sentiments in my workplaces.
And not just because the men in question acted inappropriately but because they have learned to think inappropriately. It's like racism - it's learned passed down.
So I do think education wouldbe a powerful force. In schools and workplaces.
But we need to go further because this casual degrading of women's ambitions and rights and power and potential vs those of men is everywhere.
It's in kids tv (although that's improved massively in the years I've been a parent), tween and teen tv, movies and literature. It's in advertising and the media.

It's not just the sexualisation of women and girls - it's the aesthetic expactations being relayed. It's the constant messaging that males are more capable, more likely to lead, more likely to save the world, be superheroes. Or even supervillains.
It's easily visible when you watch the news - who are all the powerful people?
Facebook boss, Apple boss, Google, POTUS, R and Dem senate leaders, etc etc.
Same for the 'baddies' - Saddam, Bin Laden, Kim, Putin.

NZ has just elected it's 3rd female Prime Minister. Great, but the problem is still massive here. It will be a generational shift as people like those in this thread raise children with different values than the generations before. And that job would be far easier if Hollywood, the media, the political system etc etc were genuinely on board and providing better examples.

I think the men Anitram has mentioned (and those like them) should be getting called out and their actions publically debated like the actions of Franken etc. Expand this movement to these more 'accepted' and insidious examples.
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Old 12-13-2017, 07:01 AM   #287
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http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3694456
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Old 12-13-2017, 07:29 AM   #288
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I remember reading in People magazine once about Mario Batali and his supposedly idyllic family life on the lake in Michigan. Talk about living a double life.

All the stories about Matt Lauer talk about how he was such a terrible husband but such a great father. I call total bs on that. You can't be a great father while you're doing such things to women. The fact that people think you can, that's a problem.
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Old 12-13-2017, 08:22 AM   #289
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All the stories about Matt Lauer talk about how he was such a terrible husband but such a great father. I call total bs on that. You can't be a great father while you're doing such things to women. The fact that people think you can, that's a problem.
I don't know, truthfully the men I know who are not faithful to women and kind of scuzzy are often incredibly good with their kids. It's a bit perplexing, but they can be supportive, enthusiastic parents. It's a super weird conundrum at times.
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Old 12-13-2017, 08:55 AM   #290
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I don't know, truthfully the men I know who are not faithful to women and kind of scuzzy are often incredibly good with their kids. It's a bit perplexing, but they can be supportive, enthusiastic parents. It's a super weird conundrum at times.
To me that's just completely contradictory. No matter how it appears. For me it always comes down to would they tell their kids they're doing that. I was talking about Lauer's harassment and alleged assault. He has a 16 year old son, supposedly he went to the son's boarding school right away to talk to him. How the hell did he "explain" that to his son?

Whether you can be simply unfaithful and still be a great parent, that's another discussion. To me that's compartmentalizing in a big way in order to say that. Guess plenty of people can do that. Not setting an example for your kids, which I still believe parents should be doing. Kids know and sense much more than people think. Some people agree to arrangements that allow for infidelity, and some people stay together. That's a different discussion. But you still have to consider your kids.
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Old 12-13-2017, 09:15 AM   #291
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That’s one of my go-to lunch spots when I’m in the city. Bummer.
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Old 12-13-2017, 10:23 AM   #292
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My best friend has cheated on his wife, and i think many times. Don’t think so over the last 5-6 years, but early on in our friendship that was the case.

He’s reasonable. Caring. And overall a nice guy. When we’ve talked about his straying ways (his wife knows of it, they worked it out) he really didn’t have a good answer. He knew it was wrong. He knew it hurt his wife. And he knew if she did it, it’d hurt him.

Some guys just can’t turn down that urge.

The people i know that tend to be a bit aggressive with women are usually very unhappy in their own lives. Have had bad experiences with women in past, and lastly don’t view women as equals.

Maybe future generations will change this
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Old 12-13-2017, 10:36 AM   #293
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My best friend has cheated on his wife, and i think many times. Don’t think so over the last 5-6 years, but early on in our friendship that was the case.

He’s reasonable. Caring. And overall a nice guy. When we’ve talked about his straying ways (his wife knows of it, they worked it out) he really didn’t have a good answer. He knew it was wrong. He knew it hurt his wife. And he knew if she did it, it’d hurt him.

Some guys just can’t turn down that urge.

The people i know that tend to be a bit aggressive with women are usually very unhappy in their own lives. Have had bad experiences with women in past, and lastly don’t view women as equals.

Maybe future generations will change this
Women and men commit infidelity in roughly equal numbers.

I don't know that we can draw a convincing correlation between infidelity and and whether someone views a member of the opposite sex as "equal" or with aggression.
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Old 12-13-2017, 11:09 AM   #294
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To me that's just completely contradictory. No matter how it appears. For me it always comes down to would they tell their kids they're doing that. I was talking about Lauer's harassment and alleged assault. He has a 16 year old son, supposedly he went to the son's boarding school right away to talk to him. How the hell did he "explain" that to his son?

Whether you can be simply unfaithful and still be a great parent, that's another discussion. To me that's compartmentalizing in a big way in order to say that. Guess plenty of people can do that. Not setting an example for your kids, which I still believe parents should be doing. Kids know and sense much more than people think. Some people agree to arrangements that allow for infidelity, and some people stay together. That's a different discussion. But you still have to consider your kids.
This is inherently unfair.

Parents have issues just like everyone else. That doesn't necessarily prohibit them from being a good parent.

Part of growing up is understanding that your parents are not infallible and have the same flaws as everyone else. A flaw that has a negative effect on the relationship between two parents does not necessarily mean that either one is a bad parent.

To be clear, I'm not talking of someone who rapes or murders or is a physical abuser.

There are parents who have amazing relationships who are shitty with their kids, and there are those who have had their marriage fall apart who are the best parents you've ever seen.
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Old 12-13-2017, 12:24 PM   #295
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This is inherently unfair.

Parents have issues just like everyone else. That doesn't necessarily prohibit them from being a good parent.

Part of growing up is understanding that your parents are not infallible and have the same flaws as everyone else. A flaw that has a negative effect on the relationship between two parents does not necessarily mean that either one is a bad parent.

To be clear, I'm not talking of someone who rapes or murders or is a physical abuser.

There are parents who have amazing relationships who are shitty with their kids, and there are those who have had their marriage fall apart who are the best parents you've ever seen.
Yes I understand all that. I'm talking about my standards and what makes me just wonder. Whatever other people do in their marriages is their decision and their business. I'm not unfair about it as far as anyone else. I've been around long enough to see those realities. You don't have to be married to see and understand them. And you can still have personal beliefs.

Even if Matt Lauer didn't rape the one woman so far that he's accused of raping, what does he say to his kids about the things he did do? Do as I say not as I do? Assuming he doesn't want his 16 year old son to treat women the way he has. Yes kids learn you're not infallible, but that's on a whole other level (what Lauer is said to have done). As in don't be racist, don't be sexist.those sorts of things. I assume many parents want to teach their kids fundamental respect for other human beings regardless of gender, race, religion, etc. So if you're not trying to model that yourself how can you teach it? Lauer and his ilk fundamentally disrespect women in major ways. You don't have to be a rapist or physical abuser.
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Old 12-13-2017, 12:37 PM   #296
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It's really tough because it's depressing that in 2017 we would need to educate grown ass men not to grope women or ask them to be surrogates or whatever else. But I guess it's needed. Private businesses should offer robust education and a robust reporting system through HR which needs to become a more independent body, in combination with robust non-retaliation policies.

Personally I have not come across such blatant harassment among the professional class of men I deal with. I have gone out to give legal education classes to some front line workers and been hooted at, but not from anybody in middle or upper management. However, what I have experienced and I daresay every woman in a similar position has experienced, are much more nuanced and subtle exercises of sexism which directly affect our ability to succeed and climb the corporate ladder. I can give you some examples:

1. I worked on an IPO some years ago, obviously a huge deal and I worked 80-100 hours a week on this for months. When you close such a huge transaction the bankers always throw an elaborate closing dinner and party to follow. Always a super expensive restaurant, flowing alcohol at a private bar after, etc. This time there were 2 women in attendance, and probably 40 men. The bankers also always give gifts to everyone in attendance. The men all got super expensive custom made cufflinks and a super expensive set of steak knives. The women got...nothing. That's right, there was a somewhat embarrassed shuffling when gifts were being given and a few laughs about how the "gals" wouldn't use these anyway. This may seem like not a big deal but it is REALLY fucking irritating.

2. Another closing dinner I went to, again there was one other woman there. It was a very large M&A deal. After the dinner, we went for drinks. After the drinks, the bankers announced that they had booked a strip club where they were taking the men. We, the two women, chose not to attend. Again, is this really necessary in this day and age? It made us feel uncomfortable being invited (clear they didn't want us to go) and made us uncomfortable to have to make up an excuse of why we couldn't.

3. A corner office partner held a client event on his boat. Did not invite female associates, later said it was because he knew none of us smoked cigars. Really now? So all of our male associates, with whom we are competing for partnership, got to socialize with the clients who can get you to partnership for an entire Saturday but we didn't?

I mean there are just dozens of these examples. If you are a POC you're even worse off.

I used to think that this is what we had to tackle but now I see it's far more basic than that.
I know it's probably a generational thing, but I cannot fathom allowing any of these sorts of things to happen. Our company events are dinners for all. If there is any sort of "after party" it would be something like going to a karaoke bar. Let's give everyone a bonus instead of cuff links or steak knives. It seems so simple to me, and the idea of casting aside the women in the workplace is something I cannot relate to at all.

And it obviously goes way beyond that. I cannot imagine looking around at a team with such an imbalance in gender or an imbalance in race, ethnicity, or background ... and thinking it's a strong company culture.

Maybe I have more flexibility as a young person in a small business where I have a moderate amount of influence and power and haven't picked up on the ingratiated habits many lifers in corporate culture may have developed, but it boggles my mind every time I hear stories like this. I appreciate you sharing and I'm sorry that you still have to deal with bullshit like this.
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:07 PM   #297
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Why did someone feel that women wouldn't use steak knives?
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:47 PM   #298
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When I was 17, I was leaving a high school party, and on the way out the parents of the host were there seeing people off. I went to shake the father's hand, and then I did not shake the mother's hand, because for some reason I thought it impolite and something you only do with men. And I didn't know either of them well so I didn't go to hug her either, so I just sort of left. And whenever I remember that, even all this time later, I'm so embarrassed, because she probably thought I was a sexist piece of shit. I don't know why I did that.
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Old 12-13-2017, 02:02 PM   #299
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Why did someone feel that women wouldn't use steak knives?


I know. I love steak.
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Old 12-13-2017, 02:31 PM   #300
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When I was 17, I was leaving a high school party, and on the way out the parents of the host were there seeing people off. I went to shake the father's hand, and then I did not shake the mother's hand, because for some reason I thought it impolite and something you only do with men. And I didn't know either of them well so I didn't go to hug her either, so I just sort of left. And whenever I remember that, even all this time later, I'm so embarrassed, because she probably thought I was a sexist piece of shit. I don't know why I did that.
She probably thought you were a high school kid, and didn't give it a second thought.
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