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Old 12-08-2017, 05:16 PM   #261
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We don’t have due process anymore. Innocent til proven guilty.

Our feelings have truly overtaken the facts.

I do believe these women who have come out against the senators (and Hollywood, the press, everyone)

But we are seeing an issue where punishment is being applied to one side.

Both sides should have their due process and then we can decide if they are fit to hold their jobs.

This even goes towards the TN college football job. Schiano basically lost his job over a public lynching. He was never found guilty of any crime, and the allegations against him were proven wrong in the court of law.

But he lost his job because social media went crazy over his time at PSU. And while it disgusts me that any coach there during the Sandusky era seemed to turn a blind eye....i just dont like the idea of losing a job over heresy
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Old 12-08-2017, 07:00 PM   #262
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Today I saw woman after woman on Twitter say, he clearly says “they just let you”, let you is consent, in attempts to defend Trump’s pussy grabbing. Made my stomach turn.
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Old 12-08-2017, 07:14 PM   #263
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Guess i don’t quite feel the rage from that photo.

Wasn’t a smart move on his part but unless i missed it he didn’t touch her right ?
??????
He's touching her in the photo.

And clearly he's a boob man



unlike George HW "David Cop a Feel" Bush who is an ass man.
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Old 12-08-2017, 10:54 PM   #264
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Yeah. Part of what's causing all these cases to be lumped together is that the lay definitions for what's occurring are so vague ..."sexual assault" is everything from pinching someone's ass to holding them down and penetrating them. "Unwanted sexual advance" ranges from leaning over to kiss someone on a first date who might not be interested yet to repeatedly trying to kiss or proposition a co-worker. It's absurd.

Whatever you think of what Franken did, it's not in the same league as what people like Moore, Conyers and Weinstein did (or are accused of doing). If the punishment for every case, however mild or serious, is going to be the death penalty (rhetorically speaking), the backlash is going to be swift, and that isn't going to do anyone any good.
I kinda tried to make these points a few weeks back in this thread. Not to take away from the victims, but to caution against lynch mob mentality. And I suggested sex is treated with a special extra sensitive barometer.
Now I don't know the truth re Franken, but to lose a career based in large part on that photo, is fucked up.
There's no way any of us here can fully contextualise that photo. We're only guessing. It's incredibly easy to completely direct news cycles and public narratives with single photos.
I'm NOT saying he's innocent. I'm know the woman has provided testimony and it wasn't testimony that left Franken in a good light.
But we - the collective we - have spent centuries working on and crafting the legal system. Innocent till proven guilty. A jury of your peers. Etc etc
Social media/general media stories like this sell A LOT of copy. Drive a huge amount of advertising revenue. There just IS a point to them being prominent, salacious and constant - it is good business.
That isn't a point that implicates the victims, of course. And the empowerment being achieved at the moment is amazing.
But I'm certain that empowerment would be even more entrenched and long lasting if these accusations were brought before courts/committees etc and judged there. Rather than via public reactions.

I guess my main point is I know how easy it is to shape public narratives when stories like this take hold. We should be bigger, wiser and more sober than that.
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Old 12-08-2017, 11:13 PM   #265
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??????
He's touching her in the photo.

And clearly he's a boob man



unlike George HW "David Cop a Feel" Bush who is an ass man.


I can't tell if he's actually touching her in the photo or not. I do think it's important if he is touching her versus if he's not.

But the photo was a supporting evidence, not an initial claim. So, it doesn't matter if he's touching her or no, because the photo isn't the main claim.

If it was just the photo I would be with BEAL here in saying that I'm not too put out of place by it. It does genuinely look to me that he's hovering over her or maybe ever so slightly touching her with obviously humorous intentions about it. Pervy and raunchy, perhaps, but not coerced kissing tongue down your thrown I'm famous let me use my power to descend upon you kind of harassment.
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Old 12-09-2017, 06:49 AM   #266
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The Right has the upper hand in nearly everything because they know the Left will eat their own.

Throwing out all morals, decency, etc the GOP will win at at any costs. While i want a society that goes high when others go low, it doesn’t work in politics for sure.

Franken got screwed. His behavior in the past appears to be that of a jerk, and possible pervert, but i don’t see any sort of crime here. At least nothing that’s come out. He appears to be touchy feely, and the photos so far appear to be done in the form of a perverted jerk.

I have seen hundreds of not more of these types of photos on my social media feed as well. Usually it’s other women grabbing their friends tits, why? Cause they’re big and think it’s funny.

Should my lady friends lose their jobs over these photos ? How do i know that the gal getting her boobs lifted REALLY is OK with it ?

If Franken committed some crime, then he should be tried for it in court. Not public opinion.

Nick brought up a good point, would this have happened if his seat would be replaced by a GOP? Doubtful.

We are naive to think that the country is going to look at what the Dems are doing and get behind them. We elected a man with dozens of sexual assault claims, as well as his own admission of taking advantage of women.

And women still voted for him over Clinton.

Such a frustrating time we live in
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Old 12-09-2017, 07:00 AM   #267
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I can't tell if he's actually touching her in the photo or not. I do think it's important if he is touching her versus if he's not.

But the photo was a supporting evidence, not an initial claim. So, it doesn't matter if he's touching her or no, because the photo isn't the main claim.

If it was just the photo I would be with BEAL here in saying that I'm not too put out of place by it. It does genuinely look to me that he's hovering over her or maybe ever so slightly touching her with obviously humorous intentions about it. Pervy and raunchy, perhaps, but not coerced kissing tongue down your thrown I'm famous let me use my power to descend upon you kind of harassment.
The issue with the Franken story is that the accusers story that he made some last minute script changed to pressure her into letting him kiss her has been disproven by video from years earlier, where Franken did the exact same show with the exact same scene. Combine that with the accuser being a common guest on Hannity, combined with Roger Stone apparently knowing that Franken was going to have a problem prior to anyone else, and it makes people a tad suspicious.

I think he's right to step down. If he's innocent, he can do more to continue to fight the accusations, clear his name, and come back even stronger. If he isn't, then fuck him.
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Old 12-11-2017, 08:21 AM   #268
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Old 12-11-2017, 08:38 AM   #269
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But we - the collective we - have spent centuries working on and crafting the legal system. Innocent till proven guilty. A jury of your peers. Etc etc.
I see this a lot - people conflating the criminal justice system with the court of public opinion.

"Beyond a reasonable doubt" has NEVER been a standard when it comes to the public deciding that a person is unsavoury. I am not sure why now it is different, except the underlying feeling that it's "unfair" that these men lost their jobs.
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Old 12-11-2017, 10:13 AM   #270
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I think he's right to step down. If he's innocent, he can do more to continue to fight the accusations, clear his name, and come back even stronger. If he isn't, then fuck him.
If he's truly "innocent", he shouldn't step down, period.

And the way he stepped down was sort of unattractive and self-serving. No real admission of guilt, basically just I'm a martyr and oh Trump/Moore. Apparently he feels he's being treated unfairly because he didn't outright deny the accusations but was trying to be "sensitive" to the notion that all women should be believed. Except that's absurd. If really feels he didn't do what he's being accused of, he should have flat out said so.

And I'm saying this as someone who doesn't think he should have resigned at all. The whole thing is a farce. He was forced out purely because of politics, so the party could say "see, we're not as bad as them."


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I see this a lot - people conflating the criminal justice system with the court of public opinion.

"Beyond a reasonable doubt" has NEVER been a standard when it comes to the public deciding that a person is unsavoury. I am not sure why now it is different, except the underlying feeling that it's "unfair" that these men lost their jobs.
True. But that doesn't mean that the public's standard for judging whether certain behaviour is unsavoury is fair or well considered. Especially given that until relatively recently this kind of behaviour was tolerated, and even expected, as "boys will be boys."

That standard was wrong. But "believe the woman no matter what" and guilty until proven innocent isn't exactly a good standard either. The pendulum is now just swinging the other way, and there will be a backlash, and hopefully at some point we'll arrive at something fair and reasonable.

However at the moment I'm not sure our society has the sense and judgement to get there anytime soon.
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Old 12-12-2017, 12:40 PM   #271
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Franken admitted to it, I don't know why it's even a conversation as to whether he should still be in office.
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Old 12-12-2017, 02:12 PM   #272
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Well there's quite a bit of confusion now, thanks to the way he resigned (or his announcement that he would be resigned) as to what exactly he's admitting to, if anything.

The only thing he's flat out admitted to is confirming that, yes, it's him in that picture, and yes it was inappropriate. It's not as if he could exactly deny that.
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Old 12-12-2017, 03:04 PM   #273
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I don't think that Franken is at all helpful or instructive in deciding what the bright line test is. It's very clear that he was a political sacrificial lamb. I do think he has a history of inappropriate behaviour, context and extent of it obviously up for debate. But whether his behaviour rises to what is essentially a firing - it really almost doesn't matter in the sense that the Party decided he had to go. So he went.
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Old 12-12-2017, 03:08 PM   #274
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Old 12-12-2017, 03:43 PM   #275
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So where do we go from here? Should there be education/classes that are required for all men to take?

I am glad that this shit is happening, as something needed to break.

Now that we are exposing this problem, how do we go about making it less of one?
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Old 12-12-2017, 03:50 PM   #276
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So where do we go from here? Should there be education/classes that are required for all men to take?

I am glad that this shit is happening, as something needed to break.

Now that we are exposing this problem, how do we go about making it less of one?
Nah, if anyone gets exposed they can just change their party affiliation to R and they'll be welcomed with open arms. G.O.P. - Grabbing On Pussy Party.
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Old 12-12-2017, 03:59 PM   #277
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So where do we go from here? Should there be education/classes that are required for all men to take?

I am glad that this shit is happening, as something needed to break.

Now that we are exposing this problem, how do we go about making it less of one?
It's really tough because it's depressing that in 2017 we would need to educate grown ass men not to grope women or ask them to be surrogates or whatever else. But I guess it's needed. Private businesses should offer robust education and a robust reporting system through HR which needs to become a more independent body, in combination with robust non-retaliation policies.

Personally I have not come across such blatant harassment among the professional class of men I deal with. I have gone out to give legal education classes to some front line workers and been hooted at, but not from anybody in middle or upper management. However, what I have experienced and I daresay every woman in a similar position has experienced, are much more nuanced and subtle exercises of sexism which directly affect our ability to succeed and climb the corporate ladder. I can give you some examples:

1. I worked on an IPO some years ago, obviously a huge deal and I worked 80-100 hours a week on this for months. When you close such a huge transaction the bankers always throw an elaborate closing dinner and party to follow. Always a super expensive restaurant, flowing alcohol at a private bar after, etc. This time there were 2 women in attendance, and probably 40 men. The bankers also always give gifts to everyone in attendance. The men all got super expensive custom made cufflinks and a super expensive set of steak knives. The women got...nothing. That's right, there was a somewhat embarrassed shuffling when gifts were being given and a few laughs about how the "gals" wouldn't use these anyway. This may seem like not a big deal but it is REALLY fucking irritating.

2. Another closing dinner I went to, again there was one other woman there. It was a very large M&A deal. After the dinner, we went for drinks. After the drinks, the bankers announced that they had booked a strip club where they were taking the men. We, the two women, chose not to attend. Again, is this really necessary in this day and age? It made us feel uncomfortable being invited (clear they didn't want us to go) and made us uncomfortable to have to make up an excuse of why we couldn't.

3. A corner office partner held a client event on his boat. Did not invite female associates, later said it was because he knew none of us smoked cigars. Really now? So all of our male associates, with whom we are competing for partnership, got to socialize with the clients who can get you to partnership for an entire Saturday but we didn't?

I mean there are just dozens of these examples. If you are a POC you're even worse off.

I used to think that this is what we had to tackle but now I see it's far more basic than that.
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Old 12-12-2017, 05:38 PM   #278
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anitram, that all just sucks so badly. For lack of my ability to articulate how unfair that is on every level.

As far as sexual harassment goes, I really just want to know-if you think a woman is interested in you in that way OUTSIDE of work and any kind of professional relationship-do you not just ASK instead of forcing that on someone? If it's actually about attraction, sex, whatever and not just a power play to demean and degrade. Harassment and attraction are two completely different things. Some of the discussion here seems to mix some of that up occasionally, honestly.

Whatever happened to just asking, whatever happened to respect and communication. I get that attraction is full of so many unspoken things, but at a certain point it gets to where things have to be verbalized. Is that not the case anymore? You just do what you want and ask later? Before anyone jumps on me I'm NOT indicting anyone here. I'm just bewildered.

I know with certainty that harassment happens to men. But still men cannot understand what it's like to live with the fear and suspicion that women have to live with. It's different and it's real.
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Old 12-12-2017, 05:39 PM   #279
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So where do we go from here? Should there be education/classes that are required for all men to take?
Let's not make the mistake of thinking that harassment fits into a tidy man to woman box. That would be a mistake.

There's plenty of man to man, woman to woman and yes, woman to man sexual harassment to go around.

Continued education is vital, but it's vital for all - not just men.
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Old 12-12-2017, 07:38 PM   #280
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Whatever happened to just asking, whatever happened to respect and communication. I get that attraction is full of so many unspoken things, but at a certain point it gets to where things have to be verbalized. Is that not the case anymore? You just do what you want and ask later? Before anyone jumps on me I'm NOT indicting anyone here. I'm just bewildered.



I know with certainty that harassment happens to men. But still men cannot understand what it's like to live with the fear and suspicion that women have to live with. It's different and it's real.

I think to stop and ask “can I kiss you”, etc can kill the moment. So I’m not sure if verbalizing is really the answer? I think you have to be emotionally intelligent enough to read the situation. But I’m talking about genuine attraction.

I think most sexual harassment comes from a power play(subconscious or not), or just pure animal instinct (for the lack of better term) and not having the emotional intelligence to curb or control.

I’ve been sexually harassed twice in my life. Once in a gay bar where an older man thought it would be funny to grab the straight man’s crotch, I was with a group of friends for a birthday; straight, gay, male and female. I was with my ex-wife at the time. Everyone wrote it off as Ted being drunk. The second time I was playing a show, and a drunk woman jumped up on stage and started singing backup for a short bit, then she proceeded to rub up on me from behind before she shoved her hand down the front of my pants. A woman from the audience finally removed her from the stage at that point.

I also worked in an environment that was extremely toxic; 12 women and me. The conversations and objectifying were to the point that if the roles were reversed I’d easily have a case on my hands, and they all acknowledged that and joked about it.

Now I don’t tell you all this to minimize anything, quite the opposite. I completely understand how prevalent and how harmful it can be, and I understand why many don’t talk about it.

If I were to take a guess, I think the reason it does effect women differently than men I would say it comes down to power. I never feared that woman who violated me on stage would be waiting in the alley after the show, I never feared it escalating to something else.

But I did fear telling my boss(office with 12 women) that her daughter was the worst offender and would constantly give me “sneak attack” shoulder rubs and tell me completely in appropriate things about her sex life.
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