There Will Be Blood - Syria

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GuelphMercury - Young woman’s beheading underscores Syrian regime’s...

Mutilation of teenager terrorises Syrian women | The Observers
 
Yeah, if Turkey's really willing to play support base for the FSA et al., that *could* be a huge game-changer. For starters it'd be a lot easier to arm them...
 
I've read several commentaries suggesting that the Syrian protesters actually represent a minority of the population, who are seen by the majority of Syrians as criminals trying to take advantage of the protests in other Arab countries in order to acquire power and wealth.

Indeed, the Western media's view on events - that this is another people-wide protest arising from genuine discontent with their government - is hard to verify as there are no foreign journalists in Syria. We therefore have to rely on the accounts that the protesters are giving us and it is not at all certain that they can be relied on. The rebels in Libya, for example, continually came up with claims that were widely believed by Western media and government officials alike, but were later disproven (for example a rather far-fetched claim that Gaddafi had supplied Viagra to his soldiers and given them the order to mass rape the population; many important people took them on their word including Susan Rice, the US ambassador to the UN and Luis Moreno-Ocampo, the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court; Amnesty International however found no evidence for the claims whatsoever). Who is to say that the Syrian rebels are a different class of people who are telling the honest truth when they're claiming they're just peaceful protesters who only want democracy and that unarmed people are being massacred by the government?

It has to be noted as well that the protests in Syria are not at all 'peaceful protests' like the ones in Tunisia and Egypt. The protesters in the city of Homs, among others, have taken up arms and not just to defend themselves from attacks by the government army. There are reports of attacks on government buildings and the use of deadly force in order to make civilians comply with a rebel-staged "general strike".

Bashar al-Assad is certainly not a saint, and I fully support initiatives for reforms in Syria. But armed rebellion will never have my blessing and neither will a foreign military intervention. In my opinion, arming the rebels, such as yolland seems to propose, would be a criminal act. From the point that you're arming the opposition the 'peaceful protester' thing goes right out of the window and you're in effect creating a civil war. And creating a war should never be your goal. There's nothing glorious about war; you're effectively plunging a whole nation into death and misery.
 
While there may have been attacks on government buildings, the Assad government clearly instigated the violence - the protests began as entirely peaceful and were met with an overwhelming and brutal show of force. In light of the brutality displayed against them, I don't think their reaction is all that terrible. And I (obviously) disagree that there is never a reason for armed rebellion (without it, there'd be no United States, for one...). When your government is shelling entire cities in an attempt to discourage a supposed minority from airing their grievances, and when the government is brutally torturing, maiming and killing children, I don't blame anyone for feeling their only recourse is to take up arms and fight back.
 
Diemen said:
While there may have been attacks on government buildings, the Assad government clearly instigated the violence - the protests began as entirely peaceful and were met with an overwhelming and brutal show of force. In light of the brutality displayed against them, I don't think their reaction is all that terrible.
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I don't condone violence against peaceful protest. I'm not altogether sure how peaceful the protest was in the first place and how disproportionate the government response was, though. The issue of there being little to no independent journalists around rises again. But even if this was an entirely peaceful protest and the army executed a massacre against unarmed civilians, responding to violence with anything other than defensive violence (attacking government buildings and civilians clearly has nothing to do with self-defence) is not acceptable as far as I'm concerned. For example, the British Army was clearly wrong in firing at unarmed protesters during Bloody Sunday (1972). But did that give the various IRA splinter groups the right to carry out their attacks against army, police and civilians? It didn't, in my opinion. And for the same reason I don't think the actions of the Syrian government warrant an armed rebellion.
And I (obviously) disagree that there is never a reason for armed rebellion (without it, there'd be no United States, for one...).
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Your northern neighbours Canada didn't have their war of independence and yet they aren't doing much worse than you. In fact, when it comes to things like Human Development Index and income equality, Canada has done much better over the years than the United States. Same goes for other former British colonies that didn't stage an armed rebellion against their colonial masters, such as Australia. So you're not really convincing me with this example.
When your government is shelling entire cities in an attempt to discourage a supposed minority from airing their grievances, and when the government is brutally torturing, maiming and killing children, I don't blame anyone for feeling their only recourse is to take up arms and fight back.
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There is, by my knowledge, no independent proof of the Syrian government intentionally killing children, or torturing and maiming them for that matter. Also, where you say Syrian forces attack "in an attempt to discourage (...) from airing their grievances", others would argue that they're attemping to neutralize armed rebels who pose a threat to the security of the Syrian state.
 
WalkOn21 said:
I don't condone violence against peaceful protest. I'm not altogether sure how peaceful the protest was in the first place and how disproportionate the government response was, though. The issue of there being little to no independent journalists around rises again.
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There were journalists in Syria as the protests began, but the Syrian government quickly kicked them out and barred any from entering. When a government's first move during attempts to quell an uprising is to effectively ban journalists from covering it, I can't speak for anyone else but I know that my suspicions are heightened.


There is, by my knowledge, no independent proof of the Syrian government intentionally killing children, or torturing and maiming them for that matter.
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Right, because the government kicked out any independent source that could prove it. Awfully convenient for the Syrian government (and you) to say that there is no independent verification of these atrocities when they've banned the very people who could verify whether the atrocities did or did not occur. There are, however, youtube videos, flickr and twitter pics documenting that torture of children has occurred.

Also, where you say Syrian forces attack "in an attempt to discourage (...) from airing their grievances", others would argue that they're attemping to neutralize armed rebels who pose a threat to the security of the Syrian state.
Click to expand...

One could argue that any protestors, peaceful or not, pose a threat to the security of the state that. The tone of a government's response to that threat should tell you a lot about the government's overall view of its citizens and their rights.
 
I wouldn't deny that with a foreign media ban a government raises suspicion onto itself. I'm not saying either that the Syrian government isn't an oppressive regime.

What I am saying, though, is that I believe answering violence with violence is the wrong idea. Once you start arming the rebels, a civil war can't be avoided. It's not like the government are going to say: "oh, so they're heavily armed now as well? Time for us to give up then." On the contrary, the government will then feel it has no other option than to fight till the bitter end (cf. Libya).

I would like you to consider that while fights between protesters/rebels and the government harm only those two parties, a civil war brings misery to the whole nation. There are lots of people, pro- and anti-government, who did not take to the streets and did not pick up arms. They didn't ask for a civil war. Yet if you start arming rebels, that's exactly what you're giving them.
 
That's certainly a valid point. I agree that arming the rebels isn't the answer - but I do sympathize with those who feel armed resistance is their only recourse now, especially given the international community's hesitation to get involved (so far).
 
WalkOn21 said:
In my opinion, arming the rebels, such as yolland seems to propose, would be a criminal act.
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Wasn't proposing that at all; I opposed our military intervention in Libya and would oppose it here also, whether directly or indirectly. I was rather raising an eyebrow at the apparent strategic implications of Turkey so openly supporting the FSA at a time when they're already hosting the SNC and threatening sweeping sanctions on Syria. It is possible that Erdogan has no intention of facilitating civil war in Syria and is merely using the FSA as leverage (in tit-for-tat fashion, Assad having used the PKK against Turkey in precisely that manner in the past). In any case, the Obama Administration doesn't seem at all keen on getting militarily involved; however much they loathe the Iran-Syria-Hezbollah axis, they surely wouldn't be keen on a Salafist-dominated successor government either, which would appear to be *one* likely possible outcome of a 'successful' revolution. Still, I find it hard to believe open Turkish protection won't lead to the FSA acquiring more arms one way or another; thus far their only suspected suppliers have been smalltime arms smugglers in Lebanon, which needless to say has numerous factions who would love to see Syria badly destabilized.

There have been some journalists reporting from Syria undercover by posing as tourists for brief periods, though usually just from Damascus or Aleppo, which remain fairly quiet. Most of the violent uprisings have been based in Sunni-majority areas, as has been the case with past uprisings in Syria; these are hardly powerful or wealthy communities though, on the contrary it's the country's large minority populations who dominate the elite (and the government, and all but the lowest ranks of the military). It certainly does seem to be true, at least based on the public statements of the 'official' organized opposition (LCC and SNC), that the majority of those demanding reforms never wanted violent revolution and still don't, but unfortunately there does at the moment appear to be a growing possibility (still not a high one, though) that they may eventually be forced to take sides, whether they wish it or not.
 
Syria agrees to Arab League plan

Based on the sparse information available at the moment, the agreement seems to comprise:
- the government calling a ceasefire;
- the government withdrawing tanks and armoured vehicles from cities and towns;
- the government meeting with the opposition within two weeks, with the meeting to take place in Cairo under Arab League supervision;
- the government releasing all political prisoners;
- the government agreeing to let journalists back into the country.

However, The Guardian notes:
"Colonel Riad Assad, leader of the Syria Free Army, said the defected brigade is continuing to attack government targets."

Somehow I feel this is not going to work. :doh:
 
British-Iranian journalist Ramita Navai and her producer spent two weeks undercover in Syria during September; it aired as a half-hour segment on PBS' Frontline last night and is now up on their website.

Syria Undercover | FRONTLINE | PBS
 
WalkOn21 said:
Syria defies Arab League deadline to admit observer mission

Does anyone have a clue what Assad's hoping to achieve with this? If his mission is to stay in power, alienating the Arab League can't be much help.
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He is just playing the engage, hold and wait game. The regime has an ally in Iran and has one of the best equipped military forces in the world. Nearly 5,000 tanks and 600 combat aircraft, most of it Russian made. He will count on Russia and China to veto any significant UN sanctions or actions. He is waiting for the resistence to lose steam and the worlds attention to turn elsewhere as it did with Iran in 2009.
 
Syria: What the fuck is wrong with Al-Assad

Hey all! Just got back from Afghanistan, albeit quite early.. thanks to an IED that blew up my humvee. Got a broken leg, won't be walking for a while but the surgery did go well and the bones in my leg are more or less back together so I should be fine as soon as everything heals up! Anyways its good to be back! :wave:

I'm sure everyones aware of the situation thats been going on in Syria but I couldn't find any real discussion of it here. I find it quite sad that no ones really done anything to stop Al-Assad, though not suprising. The UN can't pass a resolution calling for him to step down, because China and Russia won't pass it. Because they're "allies." I guess 10,000 lives are worth that? Anyways here's an article:

Syria, UN agree on observers for shaky truce

Syria and the United Nations signed a deal on Thursday on the framework for observers monitoring a shaky ceasefire, as Arab and Western ministers gathered in Paris to pile pressure on Damascus.

The UN Security Council, meanwhile, discussed plans to send an expanded military observer force to monitor the truce.

Syria's foreign ministry said the agreement "comes within the framework of Syrian efforts aimed at making the Annan plan succeed and to facilitate the UN observer mission while respecting Syria's sovereignty."

The spokesman for UN-Arab League envoy Kofi Annan, who drafted the six-point peace plan, confirmed in Geneva that a deal on the framework to deploy monitors had been reached.

"This agreement outlines the functions of the observers as they fulfil their mandate in Syria and the tasks and responsibilities of the Syrian government in this regard," Ahmad Fawzi said.

French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe said the Paris meeting, to be attended by 14 ministers including US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, would send a "strong" call to President Bashar al-Assad's regime to abide by the Annan plan.

But Syrian ally Russia said it was staying away because the talks were only aimed at isolating the regime and would hurt the chances of direct peace talks to find a political settlement between the regime and anti-Assad rebels.

UN chief Ban Ki-moon has said he wants 300 unarmed observers sent on a three-month mission.

Their job will be to monitor the fragile cessation of hostilities that began on April 12 and the implementation of the Annan plan, to which Syria has committed itself.

Ban said the proposed mission would "greatly contribute to observing and upholding the commitment of the parties to a cessation of armed violence in all its forms."

Diplomats said a resolution allowing the full observer mission could be ready early next week if there is agreement by the Security Council, which was briefed by Jean-Marie Guehenno, a deputy to Annan, behind closed doors on Thursday.

Monitors say that more than 11,000 people have been killed since the uprising against Assad's regime erupted in March 2011, with more than 120 dying since the truce came into force.

At least four people were killed in violence across Syria on Thursday, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.

One civilian died during an assault by government forces in the northeastern oil city of Deir Ezzor and three others from gunfire in the town of Yabrud, north of Damascus, the watchdog said.

Although he opted to stay away from the Paris meeting, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Moscow was "honestly fulfilling its part" to end the violence.

"I have today called on my colleagues to abandon the rhetoric of self-fulfilling prophecies that Kofi Annan's plan will certainly fail," Lavrov said in Brussels.

In a counter-charge, Juppe said: "I regret that Russia continues to lock itself into a vision that isolates it more and more, not just from the Arab world but also from the international community."

Ministers from Germany, Turkey, Jordan, Morocco, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere were to attend the talks which would, Juppe said, send "a message of firmness and support for Kofi Annan."

Ban said on Wednesday that violence levels had "dropped markedly" since the ceasefire, but that the government "has yet to fully implement its initial obligations" for a withdrawal of troops and heavy armour from towns.

However, "an opportunity for progress may now exist, on which we need to build," he said.

A seven-strong advance team of UN military observers arrived in Damascus last Sunday. By the end of the week, their numbers are to swell to the 30 already authorised by the Security Council.

Ban said the team has so far been refused permission to go to Homs, with Syrian officials citing "security concerns."

The mission went to the revolt epicentre of Daraa on Tuesday, where "it enjoyed freedom of movement" and "observed no armed violence or heavy weapons," Ban said.

The official SANA news agency said the observers went to Daraa again on Thursday, even as the Syrian Observatory reported new clashes in the area.

Amateur videos posted online showed a UN vehicle surrounded by a crowd in the town of Khirbet Ghazaleh, Daraa province, chanting "freedom, freedom, down with the regime."

Ban said there were violent incidents when the UN observers went to Arbeen, in the Damascus suburbs, on Wednesday.
Click to expand...

Syria, UN agree on observers for shaky truce - Yahoo! News

will it actually work this time?
 
Hello Pac Mule

Everyday I read two newspapers, the attacks and casualties in Afghanistan are just terrible. I am sorry for your injury, hope you have a speedy and full recovery.


We do have a Syria thread, it is here

http://www.u2interference.com/forums/f199/there-will-be-blood-syria-212236.html

perhaps this could be merged.

I do believe you are right, there will be no international action because of China and Russia.
Something to consider, do China or Russia want to support an uprising that can be stopped by repression.
Russia and China both have home-grown groups that can and have started their own 'Springs' or uprisings.
 
thanks BVS and deep. :) I didn't see that thread, probably cause I'm lazy and only looked on the first page lol.
 
yes, this subject does keep sliding back, I read a lot of stuff on it everyday

I thought it would be bad when I started the thread, I think there will be a whole lot of blood, with no consensus on any action, a coup may be the only option, but that is not likely

do the power brokers, want a Sunni takeover in Syria, what would Iraq do?

Iran, Iraq, Russia are propping up Al-Assad.
China is a large country with many languages and cultures. There are many more areas, than just Tibet, that want autonomy and independence. I don't see China ever supporting action against Al-Assad. A similar situation exist in India, they don't have a veto, but my guess is they do not support action, also.
 
God bless you and heal up soon.

I think you answered your question in the first line of your post, "thanks to an IED that blew up my humvee. Got a broken leg..."

We aren't going to Syria because of war fatigue. Even the neo-conservatives have put the war drums away. Until Israel attacks Iran later this year anyway.
 
Glad you are back. Thank you for your service!! Im very sorry for your injury....i hope and pray that you heal up fine and also that you never have to go back to Afghanistan.
 
There're now about 12 to 15,000 refugees in Kurdistan (North Iraq) and the number is growing rapidly. Here a small video from a local newspaper (in English): http://www.rudaw.net/english/multimedia/4618.html
Their situation is extremely bad. Besides having survived, they oftentimes lost everything. The men in many cases don't make it. Just women and children are let go.
We are currently in the process of gathering information to apply for funding so we can start a program to help these refugees, as well as Iranian refugees and internally displaced persons (IDP). The local government doesn't do a lot, to say the least, for fear of becoming too attractive and a backlash from the own citizens who might say "You do more for them than you do for us!"

A few weeks ago the Syrian army shot Syrians who had made it across the border into Turkey. Turkey immediately sent a warning that it will march in as to prevent another breach of sovereignty. The irony in it was, Turkey frequently bombs areas in Kurdistan, ignoring any sovereignty here, claiming they are targetting terrorists. The Syrian government itself declares everyone who is not actively supporting it a terrorist.
 
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