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Old 05-23-2012, 03:44 AM   #81
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That's hard for me to answer. I'll never be in that position. I don't think I would though.
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Old 05-23-2012, 03:46 AM   #82
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Well the fact that you're not joyously proclaiming it on a message board is a good sign
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Old 05-23-2012, 04:35 AM   #83
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I don't know, I can sorta see where AB is coming from there. There are some sick people on this earth who don't deserve to live.
Oh, absolutely. Nobody's denying there are some truly fucked up people out there whose deaths I won't mourn, who have done some deeply frightening, demented things.

But I frankly think the death penalty is too good for them. I'm not exactly expecting those sorts of people to have their conscience get to them, 'cause I don't think they have much, if any, of one to begin with, but I think there could be much better ways to really punish them for what they've done.

I've often heard about criminals who are in jail for life with no parole actually begging for the death penalty, which I think says something right there. And why would we want to give those people what they want?

For the record, I couldn't put someone to death, either. And I sure as hell wouldn't stick around to watch the execution. I think that's a seriously messed up, creepy thing to do. I don't take any joy in watching people die, and I worry about those who do.
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Old 05-23-2012, 04:54 AM   #84
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No, because if they were innocent of the crime they wouldn't have been convicted and sentenced to death.

Wasn't the whole point of the thread that an innocent man was convicted and sentenced to death? I'm not going to argue with you on the philosophy of the death penalty because I am not necessarily against it philosophically. I am against it practically however since we don't always get it right. A few years back, several innocent people were released from death row in Illinois because of the manipulations of the evidence by a lab technician.

http://truthinjustice.org/inside-labs.htm
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Old 05-23-2012, 07:02 AM   #85
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No, because if they were innocent of the crime they wouldn't have been convicted and sentenced to death.
This is simply not true. Did you not read the article that started this thread?

Study: 2,000 convicted then exonerated in 23 years - CBS News

I'm sorry but you are grossly misinformed.
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Old 05-23-2012, 08:58 AM   #86
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This is simply not true. Did you not read the article that started this thread?

Study: 2,000 convicted then exonerated in 23 years - CBS News

I'm sorry but you are grossly misinformed.
Hi BVS,

I read the article and the exerpt below proves my point:

half of the 873 exonerations studied in detail, the most common factor leading to false convictions was perjured testimony or false accusations. Forty-three percent of the cases involved mistaken eyewitness identification, and 24 percent of the cases involved false or misleading forensic evidence.

In two out of three homicides, perjury or false accusation was the most common factor leading to false conviction. In four out of five sexual assaults, mistaken eyewitness identification was the leading cause of false conviction.


DNA doesn't lie and physical evidence doesn't lie either - witnesses can be mistaken and evidence can be falsified, but a murderer's DNA on a victim is a slam-dunk - you cannot falsify DNA evidence.
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:40 AM   #87
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But this is what you said:

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No, because if they were innocent of the crime they wouldn't have been convicted and sentenced to death.
And, clearly, as has been established, there have been innocent people who have been convicted. Never mind the death penalty, people have been convicted of a crime they never committed.
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:12 AM   #88
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Hi BVS,

I read the article and the exerpt below proves my point:

half of the 873 exonerations studied in detail, the most common factor leading to false convictions was perjured testimony or false accusations. Forty-three percent of the cases involved mistaken eyewitness identification, and 24 percent of the cases involved false or misleading forensic evidence.

In two out of three homicides, perjury or false accusation was the most common factor leading to false conviction. In four out of five sexual assaults, mistaken eyewitness identification was the leading cause of false conviction.


DNA doesn't lie and physical evidence doesn't lie either - witnesses can be mistaken and evidence can be falsified, but a murderer's DNA on a victim is a slam-dunk - you cannot falsify DNA evidence.
But that is NOT what you said. You said "if they were innocent they wouldn't have been convicted", and that is what the article proves is incorrect.

But to add to your story, DNA is still not 100%. It's not a slam dunk. A spouse can have a husband's or wife's DNA on them and still be innocent. Twins and even relatives have been wrongly convicted due to DNA evidence.

There is no absolute when it comes to a criminal system. Unless you are arrogant enough to believe that humans can infallible?
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:14 AM   #89
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DNA doesn't lie and physical evidence doesn't lie either - witnesses can be mistaken and evidence can be falsified, but a murderer's DNA on a victim is a slam-dunk - you cannot falsify DNA evidence.
You do realize that (a) lab mistakes happen, and (b) not everyone who is convicted, whether they are sentenced to death or not, is convicted based on DNA evidence?

Here is a great example of a man who was probably innocent, and was executed, and DNA evidence played no role in his conviction:

Cameron Todd Willingham, Texas, and the death penalty : The New Yorker
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:22 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
Hi BVS,

I read the article and the exerpt below proves my point:

half of the 873 exonerations studied in detail, the most common factor leading to false convictions was perjured testimony or false accusations. Forty-three percent of the cases involved mistaken eyewitness identification, and 24 percent of the cases involved false or misleading forensic evidence.

In two out of three homicides, perjury or false accusation was the most common factor leading to false conviction. In four out of five sexual assaults, mistaken eyewitness identification was the leading cause of false conviction.


DNA doesn't lie and physical evidence doesn't lie either - witnesses can be mistaken and evidence can be falsified, but a murderer's DNA on a victim is a slam-dunk - you cannot falsify DNA evidence.
You live in a fantasy world
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:55 PM   #91
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No, because if they were innocent of the crime they wouldn't have been convicted and sentenced to death.
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I say again......that can't happen today with today's DNA and forensic technology.

I'm a devout fan of real crime shows on TV (like "Crime stories", "Medical detectives" etc.) and the percentage of accuracy in convictions due to forensic technology is astounding. There is no way that a person can be convicted of a crime if he didn't do it.
Well, it is not correct, repeating doesn't make it more correct. TV shows hardly ever show you the cases in which no one could get caught, or where the person was later found to be innocent. So the picture they present is naturally skewed in favour of forensics.
In the US, it takes a couple decades from conviction to execution. To cite "today's forensics" such is fallible.
As you state yourself, "the percentage of accuracy in convictions due to forensic technology is astounding", so without recognizing you acknowledge there to be failure. Failure means, you pull the plug on an innocent person.
Science is never 100%. The best science can achieve is to "fail to reject the null hypothesis", meaning you cannot prove what you are trying to find is false or true. Anyone in science claiming to have proven our found something is dishonest to his profession. Forensics is a science.
Just two years ago, it was discovered that German police was searching for a phantom. They found DNA at a number of crime scenes, usually where murders happened, and were looking for a mid-aged woman. After years it came out that the q-tips used were contaminated with the DNA of a woman who worked at the factory producing the q-tips. This is just one example, but there could be plenty of reason why DNA gets found at the scene but does not lead you to the real perpetrator.
There's a number of studies on the "CSI effect", maybe you want to read up on that. Such crime shows, and of course the real ones or such that claim to be real, create a false image of forensics.

And well, your personal feelings of revenge and tremendous emotional involvement in such cases goes diametrically to the philosophy and purpose of the modern legal system.

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Hi BVS,

I read the article and the exerpt below proves my point:

half of the 873 exonerations studied in detail, the most common factor leading to false convictions was perjured testimony or false accusations. Forty-three percent of the cases involved mistaken eyewitness identification, and 24 percent of the cases involved false or misleading forensic evidence.

In two out of three homicides, perjury or false accusation was the most common factor leading to false conviction. In four out of five sexual assaults, mistaken eyewitness identification was the leading cause of false conviction.


If I met a person and we touched each other, that person would have my DNA on them. If this person got killed shortly after I left, that means I'm the murderer because my DNA is on the body, in the clothing or somewhere on the scene?

DNA doesn't lie and physical evidence doesn't lie either - witnesses can be mistaken and evidence can be falsified, but a murderer's DNA on a victim is a slam-dunk - you cannot falsify DNA evidence.
If I met a person and we talked and touched, this person would have my DNA on them, and I would have theirs. It doesn't even take minutes for that. So if said person had my DNA on them, and shortly after I left he or she got murdered, I would be the murderer?

http://dna-view.com/profile.htm

Some more information on DNA. DNA is quite a good indicator, but no more.
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Old 05-23-2012, 01:51 PM   #92
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No, because if they were innocent of the crime they wouldn't have been convicted and sentenced to death.
Take your hands away from your eyes and read some of the posts in this thread. Intentional ignorance is no excuse for being so ill-informed.

TEN PERCENT OF ALL PEOPLE ON DEATH ROW ARE INNOCENT.
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Old 05-23-2012, 04:23 PM   #93
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I say again......that can't happen today with today's DNA and forensic technology.

...

There is no way that a person can be convicted of a crime if he didn't do it.
I'm sorry, but you are mistaken to believe that. Did you read the article that started this thread out? Not only is it possible to be convicted of a crime you didn't commit, it has happened many times, and has been documented many times.

The Innocence Project - Home

So I'll ask you my original question again, since you didn't actually answer it: How would you feel if the supposedly guilty man you personally pulled the plug on turned out to be innocent?
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Old 05-23-2012, 08:11 PM   #94
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I do find it pretty funny that AchtungBono is claiming that technological advancements have made errors in criminal justice a thing of the past inside of a thread inspired by a horrible error made by the criminal justice system.

I mean, shit, it's right in the title.
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:24 PM   #95
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You live in a fantasy world
I think it's left liberals that live in a fantasy world of no mass murders, no serial killers, no child rape - or even if they such crime do exist, the solution is just to be nice to the perpretators, rehabilitate, teach them how to sing Kumbaya and all that.

There may be valid concerns to raise about the exercise of the death penalty in various countries, maybe even including the US - but the hyprocritical Guardian (or "Grauniad" as its known in its native country) are maybe not the right people to raise them, as shown by their blatant and hypocritical disregard for critiquing the death penalty in countries other than their beter noire, the US, for example the Palestinian authority and other Muslim governments.
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:55 PM   #96
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I think it's left liberals that live in a fantasy world of no mass murders, no serial killers, no child rape - or even if they such crime do exist, the solution is just to be nice to the perpretators, rehabilitate, teach them how to sing Kumbaya and all that.
Except nobody is arguing such a thing, save for perhaps rehabilitation.

I don't agree with the death penalty, but I sure as hell don't have any sort of sympathy for rapists or child killers or genocidal psychopaths or whatnot. They're all lowlife scum and if the human justice system eludes them and they don't get the punishment they so deserve, I like to think they'll still get theirs in some other way. If there is indeed a hell I have no problem believing they'll go there and would be worthy of going there.
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:59 PM   #97
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There may be valid concerns to raise about the exercise of the death penalty in various countries, maybe even including the US - but the hyprocritical Guardian (or "Grauniad" as its known in its native country) are maybe not the right people to raise them, as shown by their blatant and hypocritical disregard for critiquing the death penalty in countries other than their beter noire, the US, for example the Palestinian authority and other Muslim governments.
Except the Guardian isn't the one raising the concerns - it's an article that's essentially a book review of a book written by a law professor and his students over the years.

That's why I provided a link to the whole book (it's available online for free).
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:27 PM   #98
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I think it's left liberals that live in a fantasy world of no mass murders, no serial killers, no child rape
How is this relevant to what I was talking about? Did I say anywhere there weren't mass murders, serial killers, or rapes? Don't use my words out of context as a jumping point for you rant
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:04 PM   #99
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I think it's left liberals that live in a fantasy world of no mass murders, no serial killers, no child rape - or even if they such crime do exist, the solution is just to be nice to the perpretators, rehabilitate, teach them how to sing Kumbaya and all that.
I have no idea what relevance this has to do with this particular discussion because life imprisonment, the proposed alternative to execution, doesn't exactly put an emphasis on integrating criminals back into society.

Also, impressive work alienating a huge chunk of regulars to this thread when most of your post regards the hypocrisy of the Guardian.
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:29 PM   #100
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I think it's left liberals that live in a fantasy world of no mass murders, no serial killers, no child rape - or even if they such crime do exist, the solution is just to be nice to the perpretators, rehabilitate, teach them how to sing Kumbaya and all that.
Let's just throw some shit at the wall.
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