The wrong Carlos: how Texas sent an innocent man to his death

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Also the tax dollars of the families, friends and the victims themselves.

Is there no act too heinous that you forfeit your "right to life" by committing it? Does the state not have the right to kill a Timothy McVeigh when he commits an act of terrorism killing hundreds of innocents?

I'm aware that it's everyone's tax dollars, but thank you for pointing that out.

I think you're asking the wrong question here, and this is sort of the crux of the argument. The question should not be about the heinousness of the crimes. Rather, why are we executing people when we are not and cannot be 100 percent certain they are guilty?

Originally Posted by INDY500

?

Let me try to explain what I'm saying: "finality" would mean that the case is over. That means that either the person has been executed or the person has been freed because they were innocent of the crime.

Of cases that have reached said finality, about 10 percent of them were exonerations. Based on that, we are about 90 percent accurate in even getting the decisions of guilt on these crimes right.

Originally Posted by INDY500

Again, that is a subjective statement of opinion as you've presented nothing dispassionately to support it.

Look at the numbers I just presented. I was slightly off in my calculations in the first post, but basically, 1-in-10 death row inmates didn't even commit the crime they are on death row for.

ONE IN TEN. That's insanity.

Originally Posted by INDY500

Not complicated?

D-Day vet beaten, wife killed in robbery - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times

The 90-year-old has since died as well. Tell that family and community how uncomplicated this issue is.

Again, you're talking about heinousness, and that shouldn't be the argument.

Originally Posted by INDY500

I'd hope so. There was reason to arrest them, charge them, try them, find them guilty and sentence them with capital punishment. That's going to weed out most innocent people from ever getting to death row isn't it?

You hope so? I don't think you understood the point: HALF of cases that reached finality in my state were WRONG. As many people have been executed on death row as have been freed from death row. It's literally a coin flip.

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Not Norway for sure.

Execute 90 people in cold blood and you might get 26 years in prison. If, if the judge is a real hardass and tacks on 5 years for "unfit to return to society" to the 21 year maximum penalty.

He should be in prison for life. I can't imagine anyone here arguing that.

[Diemen]

Personally, I have a hard time understanding how any Christian could be for Capital Punishment. Even before taking the systemic percentage of wrongful convicitions into account.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Also the tax dollars of the families, friends and the victims themselves.

Is there no act too heinous that you forfeit your "right to life" by committing it? Does the state not have the right to kill a Timothy McVeigh when he commits an act of terrorism killing hundreds of innocents?

?

Again, that is a subjective statement of opinion as you've presented nothing dispassionately to support it.

Not complicated?

D-Day vet beaten, wife killed in robbery - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times

The 90-year-old has since died as well. Tell that family and community how uncomplicated this issue is.

I'd hope so. There was reason to arrest them, charge them, try them, find them guilty and sentence them with capital punishment. That's going to weed out most innocent people from ever getting to death row isn't it?

You don't want the government to tax you or provide you with health care ... But you'll let the government KILL you and/or other Americans?

[Vincent Vega]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Also a victim of "life can be made 100% risk free." I understand a moral stance against the death penalty but would the same people outlaw high-speed police pursuits because inevitability innocent people will, and have been, killed by them? Hostage rescues?

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

That's sort of comparing apples to oranges, isn't it? We have much more control over the outcome of a criminal trial than we do high pressure situations like the ones you propose.

Exactly, taking two entirely different things doesn't make a valid comparison.
Having a moral, legal stance against the death penalty is in no way arguing for a risk-free life.

[Vincent Vega]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Not complicated?

D-Day vet beaten, wife killed in robbery - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times


The 90-year-old has since died as well. Tell that family and community how uncomplicated this issue is.

The modern legal systems in the west are not set up in a way to revenge the people related to victims or alleviate their feelings through that. The modern legal system aims at rehabilitation first.

I'd hope so. There was reason to arrest them, charge them, try them, find them guilty and sentence them with capital punishment. That's going to weed out most innocent people from ever getting to death row isn't it?

Well, apparently there was not good enough reason, hence they got exonerated or should have.

[Vincent Vega]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Not Norway for sure.

Execute 90 people in cold blood and you might get 26 years in prison. If, if the judge is a real hardass and tacks on 5 years for "unfit to return to society" to the 21 year maximum penalty.

This is not correct. It's called forvaring. After 21 years five years can be added, then five years again, and again until his death.

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Also a victim of "life can be made 100% risk free." I understand a moral stance against the death penalty but would the same people outlaw high-speed police pursuits because inevitability innocent people will, and have been, killed by them? Hostage rescues?

As has been noted, they're two entirely different scenarios, but actually, yes, I am against high-speed chases. I understand they want to try and get the criminal, but if the criminal has managed to escape, just continue to keep searching for them by getting tips from citizens, if you manage to see the car as the criminal's getting away, get the license number if you can, put out alerts to the public that someone is on the loose, that sort of thing. There's no need to put the lives of innocent people in danger through chasing after them. Criminals can try all sorts of dangerous manuvers during chases, like driving through neighborhoods, up on sidewalks, through school zones, etc., if they're desperate enough to get away from the police-it's too much of a risk to the public at large. Police endanger their lives everyday as part of their job description, but I am not in the mood to get in a car accident or be run over because some criminal was trying to outrun the police during a chase. Sorry.

Originally Posted by INDY500

Not complicated?

D-Day vet beaten, wife killed in robbery - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times


The 90-year-old has since died as well. Tell that family and community how uncomplicated this issue is.

1, that is absolutely horrific and my heart goes out to the family. I hope the person or people who committed that crime are caught as soon as possible and get the punishment they deserve.

2, you realize that sometimes there are people who've lost loved ones to heinous crimes who don't seek the death penalty, right? Who miraculously manage to show forgiveness? I saw a story on TV once about a woman whose father was murdered in front of her, and the guy almost got her, too.

She actually wound up fighting strongly to see to it he did not get the death penalty, but rather a jail sentence, life imprisonment. Not everyone who is the victim of a violent crime or knows someone who's a victim is hungry for that kind of revenge.

Not to mention, the criminal's death is a breeze compared to what they put the victim(s) through. To illustrate the point: in the story you shared, the victims were beaten and raped and brutally murdered.

What is the criminal likely going to get if they're put to death? A shot in the arm that lets them drift off to permanent slumber. Ooh, yeah, now they know exactly how their victims felt, right? That showed them!

[cobl04]

Can we ever prevent innocent people from going to jail anyway? We're human, I don't think so, as much as we like to hope so.

[Moonlit_Angel]

No, unfortunately, you're right. There's always a chance someone will sadly go to jail when they didn't do anything.

But if we can try and get that to happen as infrequently as possible, that's a step in the right direction.

[anitram]

How many people here who are in favour of the death penalty would be willing to pull the plug themselves?

[KhanadaRhodes]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Not Norway for sure.

Execute 90 people in cold blood and you might get 26 years in prison. If, if the judge is a real hardass and tacks on 5 years for "unfit to return to society" to the 21 year maximum penalty.

strawman. i never said anything about how we should be more like norway or any other country. good lord. and...

Originally Posted by Vincent Vega

This is not correct. It's called forvaring. After 21 years five years can be added, then five years again, and again until his death.

your facts are just plain wrong, indy.

[AchtungBono]

Originally Posted by anitram

How many people here who are in favour of the death penalty would be willing to pull the plug themselves?

*raises hand*.....I would.

I would have loved to pull the switch on Ted Bundy, inject John Wayne Gacy and bury John Couey alive (too bad he died before I had the chance....).

I also would have loved to pull the lever on the gallows for Adolph Eichmann just so I could have the pleasure of staring him in the eyes and spitting in his Nazi face on behalf of my relatives who perished in the Holocaust.

[PhilsFan]

Would you be willing to pull the trigger on someone who may be innocent of the crime?

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by AchtungBono

*raises hand*.....I would.

I would have loved to pull the switch on Ted Bundy, inject John Wayne Gacy and bury John Couey alive (too bad he died before I had the chance....).

I also would have loved to pull the lever on the gallows for Adolph Eichmann just so I could have the pleasure of staring him in the eyes and spitting in his Nazi face on behalf of my relatives who perished in the Holocaust.

This is all kinds of fucked up

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Not complicated?

D-Day vet beaten, wife killed in robbery - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times


The 90-year-old has since died as well. Tell that family and community how uncomplicated this issue is.

Oh my god, you mean some of the people on death row have committed heinous crimes?
What a shitty argument

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by Diemen

Personally, I have a hard time understanding how any Christian could be for Capital Punishment. Even before taking the systemic percentage of wrongful convicitions into account.

Well because they're willing to look past what their antiquated book says when it's convenient to them. When the book agrees with what's convenient, we can't expect them to change their minds, because it's what jesus tells them to do

[LemonMelon]

Originally Posted by Diemen

Personally, I have a hard time understanding how any Christian could be for Capital Punishment. Even before taking the systemic percentage of wrongful convicitions into account.

I always throw this verse out when conversing with a fellow Christian about the death penalty:

VENGEANCE IS MINE; I WILL REPAY, SAITH THE LORD

The criminal justice system is in place to keep the innocent out of harm's way, not play God. Execution is never an appropriate sentence.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by LemonMelon

I always throw this verse out when conversing with a fellow Christian about the death penalty:

VENGEANCE IS MINE; I WILL REPAY, SAITH THE LORD

The criminal justice system is in place to keep the innocent out of harm's way, not play God. Execution is never an appropriate sentence.

Well said!

[Jive Turkey]

If only they were all as level headed and clear thinking as you.