The wrong Carlos: how Texas sent an innocent man to his death

[digitize]

Originally Posted by KhanadaRhodes

exactly. are there even any other first-world countries that still use the death penalty?

Singapore does, and to an absurd degree.

[Vincent Vega]

Singapore is a dictatorial regime with way too much money. If you compare democratic societies, there's only the US (though not all states) and Japan that are still killing their people "for justice".

[deep]

on that list of 23 countries that execute,

U S is towards the bottom, 17 of 23, and that is with Singapore and Vietnam not reporting, my guess that they both execute more per capita, than the U S.

[Vincent Vega]

But is this a contest now? "Hey, this country executes more than us!"
This list reads like the "axis of evil". Don't know if countries like the US, Japan or even Belarus really want to be on that.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

The death penalty is the worst thing in American politics and justice. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.

Ok Journalism major, if that is indeed a fact rather than an opinion you'll kindly provide some quantitative data to support the fact that the death penalty is "worse" in American politics and justice than say:

The Citizens United decision and the corruption of money on U.S. politics
or
Incivility and partisanship in U.S. politics
or
The Bush tax cuts and income inequality
or
The injustice of this generation passing on a $16 trillion debt to the next generation
or
Fighting a War of Drugs rather than Wall St fraud.

You only have to pick one.

Go.

[Angela Harlem]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Ok Journalism major, if that is indeed a fact rather than an opinion you'll kindly provide some quantitative data to support the fact that the death penalty is "worse" in American politics and justice than say:

The Citizens United decision and the corruption of money on U.S. politics
or
Incivility and partisanship in U.S. politics
or
The Bush tax cuts and income inequality
or
The injustice of this generation passing on a $16 trillion debt to the next generation
or
Fighting a War of Drugs rather than Wall St fraud.

You only have to pick one.

Go.

Really? really? holy shit.

[Moonlit_Angel]

All of those things are indeed bad, but the government-sanctioned killing of people who may not be guilty of the crimes they're accused of based on some weird notion of "justice" is pretty damn horrific.

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Ok Journalism major, if that is indeed a fact rather than an opinion you'll kindly provide some quantitative data to support the fact that the death penalty is "worse" in American politics and justice than say:

The Citizens United decision and the corruption of money on U.S. politics
or
Incivility and partisanship in U.S. politics
or
The Bush tax cuts and income inequality
or
The injustice of this generation passing on a $16 trillion debt to the next generation
or
Fighting a War of Drugs rather than Wall St fraud.

You only have to pick one.

Go.

The government is using more money and resources solely for the purpose of being bloodthirsty and vindictive. My tax dollars are going towards bloodlust.

Of cases that have reached finality, about one in nine resulted in exoneration. Add to that the number of innocents executed (basically an unknown because cases like this are almost never investigated after the inmate is executed), and you are approaching close to 15 percent on death row being innocent.

Very simply, the government killing people it is not sure are even guilty is the worst thing this country does. I don't have to back off my stances on Wall Street fraud, debt or income inequality to say this. Those are issues with terrible moral consequences, but they are at least somewhat reasonably complicated. This issue is not.

In my state, we have executed as many death row inmates as we have exonerated.

[ladyfreckles]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Ok Journalism major, if that is indeed a fact rather than an opinion you'll kindly provide some quantitative data to support the fact that the death penalty is "worse" in American politics and justice than say:

The Citizens United decision and the corruption of money on U.S. politics
or
Incivility and partisanship in U.S. politics
or
The Bush tax cuts and income inequality
or
The injustice of this generation passing on a $16 trillion debt to the next generation
or
Fighting a War of Drugs rather than Wall St fraud.

You only have to pick one.

Go.

All the stuff wrong with our government and that's what you come up with?

[BonosSaint]

Originally Posted by Angela Harlem

Really? really? holy shit.

Holy Fucking Shit. You're back.

[digitize]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

The government is using more money and resources solely for the purpose of being bloodthirsty and vindictive. My tax dollars are going towards bloodlust.

A very large amount of US foreign policy fits this description too, though it has killed many more people and been a lot more expensive.

[AchtungBono]

In 1989, DNA analysis was virtually non-existant and indeed all of the science of forensics was still in its infancy so they didn't have the resources to nail down convictions like they do now.

It is horrible that a person was executed for a crime he didn't commit but thankfully that can't happen now with today's technological advances.

That being said, I'm totally FOR the death penalty and there are a lot of criminals whom I would have loved to electrocute/inject/hang...etc.

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by AchtungBono

It is horrible that a person was executed for a crime he didn't commit but thankfully that can't happen now with today's technological advances.

Uhhhhhhh. Yes, it can. Technology's capable of failing just like anything else.

ETA: Angela Harlem! Hello ! Good to see you pop in.

[cobl04]

If it is fallible in sport, then yes, technology can be fallible when being used to decide if a person is guilty or not.

I used to be all for the death penalty... and to be honest I can't say I'd really have liked people such as Hussein, Osama, Amrozi et al to have simply been locked up. They are some sick, sick people out there that are far better off dead. I'm not as sure as I once was though. At least if innocent people go to jail there's a chance they'll be rightly exonerated.

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by cobl04

At least if innocent people go to jail there's a chance they'll be rightly exonerated.

Exactly.

Course, that being said, however, I can't even begin to imagine what it'd be like to miss out on a good chunk of your life because you spent it in jail for something you didn't do. Sure, if a person is found innocent, they can be let go, which is great. But so much adjustment to be made, if your prison stay was particularly hellish, you have that mental issue to deal with, and then of course it would be hard to be honest and tell people you were in jail, because even though you're innocent, some people would still look at you suspiciously anyway.

It's an insane situation no matter what.

[Vincent Vega]

Originally Posted by AchtungBono

It is horrible that a person was executed for a crime he didn't commit but thankfully that can't happen now with today's technological advances.

I'm afraid you are a victim of what is called the CSI-effect or CSI-phenomenon: The belief that forensics these days is perfect and that every criminal case these days is waterproof by the use of it. But well, TV still is not reality.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by Vincent Vega

I'm afraid you are a victim of what is called the CSI-effect or CSI-phenomenon: The belief that forensics these days is perfect and that every criminal case these days is waterproof by the use of it. But well, TV still is not reality.

Also a victim of "life can be made 100% risk free." I understand a moral stance against the death penalty but would the same people outlaw high-speed police pursuits because inevitability innocent people will, and have been, killed by them? Hostage rescues?

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Also a victim of "life can be made 100% risk free." I understand a moral stance against the death penalty but would the same people outlaw high-speed police pursuits because inevitability innocent people will, and have been, killed by them? Hostage rescues?

That's sort of comparing apples to oranges, isn't it? We have much more control over the outcome of a criminal trial than we do high pressure situations like the ones you propose.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

The government is using more money and resources solely for the purpose of being bloodthirsty and vindictive. My tax dollars are going towards bloodlust.

Also the tax dollars of the families, friends and the victims themselves.

Is there no act too heinous that you forfeit your "right to life" by committing it? Does the state not have the right to kill a Timothy McVeigh when he commits an act of terrorism killing hundreds of innocents?

Of cases that have reached finality, about one in nine resulted in exoneration. Add to that the number of innocents executed (basically an unknown because cases like this are almost never investigated after the inmate is executed), and you are approaching close to 15 percent on death row being innocent.

?

Very simply, the government killing people it is not sure are even guilty is the worst thing this country does.

Again, that is a subjective statement of opinion as you've presented nothing dispassionately to support it.

I don't have to back off my stances on Wall Street fraud, debt or income inequality to say this. Those are issues with terrible moral consequences, but they are at least somewhat reasonably complicated. This issue is not.

Not complicated?

D-Day vet beaten, wife killed in robbery - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times

D-Day vet beaten, wife killed in robbery
The 101st Airborne Division Association is asking its members and other Screaming Eagles veterans to step up and help one of their own — a 90-year-old D-Day veteran who nearly died as a result of a brutal home invasion last month.

Bob Strait of Tulsa, Okla., was hospitalized after a vicious March 14 robbery that killed his wife, 85-year-old Nancy Strait. She was beaten and raped in the attack.

The couple, who met on a blind date on Thanksgiving Day 1946, had been married for 65 years.

The 90-year-old has since died as well. Tell that family and community how uncomplicated this issue is.

In my state, we have executed as many death row inmates as we have exonerated.

I'd hope so. There was reason to arrest them, charge them, try them, find them guilty and sentence them with capital punishment. That's going to weed out most innocent people from ever getting to death row isn't it?

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by KhanadaRhodes

exactly. are there even any other first-world countries that still use the death penalty?

Not Norway for sure.

Execute 90 people in cold blood and you might get 26 years in prison. If, if the judge is a real hardass and tacks on 5 years for "unfit to return to society" to the 21 year maximum penalty.