The War Against Boys

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Cool, a link to Amazon.

That reminds me, I need to buy more books about feminism so I can learn how to harm young men.
 
corianderstem said:
Cool, a link to Amazon.

That reminds me, I need to buy more books about feminism so I can learn how to harm young men.
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:lmao:

On a serious note, I agree with Irvine. You can't just provide a link to a book in order to discuss an interesting topic. Is there an article around? What are your own thoughts, Iron Horse? Get the ball rolling!
 
The original book was published in 2001. In the 2013 reissue, the word "feminism" has been dropped from the title. The new full title is:


The War Against Boys: How Misguided Policies are Harming Our Young Men. I don't know if the body of the book has changed, but the title emphasis has. I'm sure a lot of people will be disappointed that the red meat of "feminism" has been removed from the title.



http://www.npr.org/2013/02/12/171806323/boys-are-at-the-back-of-the-class interview with the author

http://www.sadker.org/waragainstboys.html (response to the original book)

http://ideas.time.com/2013/08/19/school-has-become-too-hostile-to-boys/


I find the topic interesting and I believe there is a lot of truth in how young boys are being handled and believe changes have to be made to maximize potential for BOTH sexes. I don't want to see women lose the inroads they have gained. As a feminist, I was never either/or. I was always both. I'm a humanist. I see differences between men and women. But I'm not willing to go backwards. I don't want to see changes made at the expense of women, no more than men and others wanted changes made at the expense of men. I think perhaps though that many of the champions of young boys are indifferent to young girls. Perhaps in the same way that the champions of young girls were indifferent to young boys. Perhaps we can have a discussion that does not demonize that is productive for both boys and girls.
 
BonosSaint said:
The original book was published in 2001. In the 2013 reissue, the word "feminism" has been dropped from the title. The new full title is:

The War Against Boys: How Misguided Policies are Harming Our Young Men. I don't know if the body of the book has changed, but the title emphasis has. I'm sure a lot of people will be disappointed that the red meat of "feminism" has been removed from the title.

http://www.npr.org/2013/02/12/171806323/boys-are-at-the-back-of-the-class interview with the author

http://www.sadker.org/waragainstboys.html (response to the original book)

http://ideas.time.com/2013/08/19/school-has-become-too-hostile-to-boys/

I find the topic interesting and I believe there is a lot of truth in how young boys are being handled and believe changes have to be made to maximize potential for BOTH sexes. I don't want to see women lose the inroads they have gained. As a feminist, I was never either/or. I was always both. I'm a humanist. I see differences between men and women. But I'm not willing to go backwards. I don't want to see changes made at the expense of women, no more than men and others wanted changes made at the expense of men. I think perhaps though that many of the champions of young boys are indifferent to young girls. Perhaps in the same way that the champions of young girls were indifferent to young boys. Perhaps we can have a discussion that does not demonize that is productive for both boys and girls.
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BonosSaint said:
I find the topic interesting and I believe there is a lot of truth in how young boys are being handled and believe changes have to be made to maximize potential for BOTH sexes. I don't want to see women lose the inroads they have gained. As a feminist, I was never either/or. I was always both. I'm a humanist. I see differences between men and women. But I'm not willing to go backwards. I don't want to see changes made at the expense of women, no more than men and others wanted changes made at the expense of men. I think perhaps though that many of the champions of young boys are indifferent to young girls. Perhaps in the same way that the champions of young girls were indifferent to young boys. Perhaps we can have a discussion that does not demonize that is productive for both boys and girls.
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I agree with you, BonosSaint. I'm concerned and saddened that many boys do not go onto or even finish college. Women are the ones going for their Masters' - which is all good! But I feel that boys are being left behind too, and its never good to be indifferent to one gender. Both need to be told that they matter and they compliment the other gender, rather than saying they are a problem - which is how radical feminists and misogynists label the opposite sex.
 
Yeah, I never really understood recent day feminists. They keep shouting they want equality, yet what they want couldn't be further away from it.

IMO people should do what they're good at and what they enjoy doing for a living. Why should it matter if they're male or female. Then again there's still a lot of bias and people look oddly when they get a female truck driver, or a male nurse. Always the shitty remarks, and the man obviously has to be gay. :rolleyes:
 
Galeongirl said:
Yeah, I never really understood recent day feminists. They keep shouting they want equality, yet what they want couldn't be further away from it.
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Based on what? What part suggests to you that they don't want equality?
 
Some just go overboard in their search for 'equality' that they think women should be treated more special and better than men. They tip the balance into making men the 'lesser' sex and anyone who disagree is a sheltered woman not wanting freedom.

It's like the kids coming into my dad's liquor store. Of course he has to ask them all for ID, but a while ago it was a black girl whom he asked. The kid flipped out at him, went mad, shouted, broke a bottle and accused my dad of being racist.

The kid was 15 and looked like it. So he asked for ID because she looked underage. Which she was, as legal age here is 16. Yet the kid cried racism, because that's apparently what white people do when they lay the law on them. That's what I mean with going overboard. Sure, slavery was horrible and we should be careful that racism isn't getting the upper hand again, but to give them all sorts of benefits, to have them not abide the law just because they're black? No.

I know it's a tricky comparison, but it's the only example I can think of right now. I don't feel that women should be treated special, with extra care or whatever. In my family, I'm the one around the house carrying heavy stuff, doing the small technical repairs, the computer stuff, fixing bikes... and do I feel less of a woman? No. I simply do what I'm good at, since my dad doesn't know shit about computers and has a shitty back so he can't carry things. :shrug:
 
Galeongirl said:
Some just go overboard in their search for 'equality' that they think women should be treated more special and better than men. They tip the balance into making men the 'lesser' sex and anyone who disagree is a sheltered woman not wanting freedom.
Click to expand...

Interestingly, I don't really get this impression about modern feminism at all, and I know a lot of people who are very passionate feminists. Well sure, I've heard of some, but they never represented mainstream feminism in my mind. Perhaps it's a difference in attitudes between countries?
 
Similarly, of all the feminists I've known (I guess I'm a pro-feminist too, but I'm not sure if it's my place to call myself a feminist being a male, I'm a bit unsure about that bit) haven't really expressed the desire to oppress men or anything like that.
 
Feminism really is a lot like racism because you have to deal not only with individuals being assholes, but also with structures and institutions that have developed to serve the needs and interests of one group not the other, and also thousands of attitudes about what is 'normal' and what is an 'extra' need or request that are ingrained in everyone, not just the deliberate assholes. So when you look at trying to create equality out of a system like that, it may look a bit like "favoring" that disadvantaged party for quite a long time.

Whenever you look at a binary concept like black/white, gay/straight or male/female, one of them naturally is given 'normal' status and the other is assigned as 'other', which is the not-normal, the extra. And when you try to create equality between them or remove the binary system, it's naturally going to feel like loss of power or status to the 'normal' privileged group. That doesn't mean someone is actively trying to take from them- it just means that things are going to feel radically different.
 
I guess we have different kinds of feminism then. Because I do really agree with what you say Jeevey, but that's not how I perceive it here. Then again, maybe there is a bit more freedom for females here in Europe, as there's more acceptance than in the US(Same with gay marriage for that matter). So the cases still fighting tend to be a bit more extreme.
 
There are worse places, it's true. We don't face the same challenges that women do in the Congo or Saudi Arabia. The internet has given women a lot of public voice that they couldn't get through mainstream media. But we lag behind the rest of the developed world on almost every measure of women's wellbeing and gender equity. Not even to go into all the ways that violence against and domination over women is still institutionalized and accepted, we still regularly have to have a conversation about if feminism is important or valid. That to me is the most depressing thing.
 
jeevey said:
There are worse places, it's true. We don't face the same challenges that women do in the Congo or Saudi Arabia. The internet has given women a lot of public voice that they couldn't get through mainstream media. But we lag behind the rest of the developed world on almost every measure of women's wellbeing and gender equity. Not even to go into all the ways that violence against and domination over women is still institutionalized and accepted, we still regularly have to have a conversation about if feminism is important or valid. That to me is the most depressing thing.
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Do you have statistics and examples to back this up?
 
BonosSaint said:
The Global Gender Gap Is Closing, But The U.S. Is Still Failing Its Women - Forbes The Global Gender Gap Report 2012 | World Economic Forum - The Global Gender Gap Report 2012 International Comparison '.org': Internationa Gender Equality Statistics
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These are all interesting, and it seems, as in so many polls, that Scandinavia -- with its robust social welfare programs -- leads the pack in so many ways. There's lots we can learn from them.

None of these seem to give any credence at all to the hyperbolic language used in previous posts, nor the headline that the US is "failing" it's women. It seems as if the same socioeconomic issues that plague the US as a whole is the same for women.

Given my own experiences in North America and Europe, I'd say that women in NA are less restricted by traditional notions of gender roles -- as has been noted, Europe has a degree of social conservativism that's always struck me as strange. The weird French resistance to SSM (seen in the "manif pour tous" demonstrations) were rooted much more in essentialist notions of masculinity and femininity than actual opposition to homosexuality. Anecdotally, I can vouch that issues such as date rape are much more open over here, and I have never heard of anyone having to buy a fake wedding ring to avoid catcalling as friends if mine had to do in Italy, Spain, etc.
 
Irvine511 said:
Given my own experiences in North America and Europe, I'd say that women in NA are less restricted by traditional notions of gender roles -- as has been noted, Europe has a degree of social conservativism that's always struck me as strange. The weird French resistance to SSM (seen in the "manif pour tous" demonstrations) were rooted much more in essentialist notions of masculinity and femininity than actual opposition to homosexuality. Anecdotally, I can vouch that issues such as date rape are much more open over here, and I have never heard of anyone having to buy a fake wedding ring to avoid catcalling as friends if mine had to do in Italy, Spain, etc.
Click to expand...

From what I've heard, Europeans treat sexual harassment like it is no big deal. I had friends who studied abroad in Italy or France, and whenever a guy pinched their ass, they were mocked for complaining about it.
 
Irvine511 said:
These are all interesting, and it seems, as in so many polls, that Scandinavia -- with its robust social welfare programs -- leads the pack in so many ways. There's lots we can learn from them.

None of these seem to give any credence at all to the hyperbolic language used in previous posts, nor the headline that the US is "failing" it's women. It seems as if the same socioeconomic issues that plague the US as a whole is the same for women.

Given my own experiences in North America and Europe, I'd say that women in NA are less restricted by traditional notions of gender roles -- as has been noted, Europe has a degree of social conservativism that's always struck me as strange. The weird French resistance to SSM (seen in the "manif pour tous" demonstrations) were rooted much more in essentialist notions of masculinity and femininity than actual opposition to homosexuality. Anecdotally, I can vouch that issues such as date rape are much more open over here, and I have never heard of anyone having to buy a fake wedding ring to avoid catcalling as friends if mine had to do in Italy, Spain, etc.
Click to expand...

I was looking for graphs and charts and statistics for you, so take no responsibility for the headline of US is failing its women. I googled international comparisons of gender equality, not "Proof women are fucked".:D

All of our experiences and observations are pretty much by definition limited, which does not mean they are not interesting ideas to consider, but are not definitive. I would also guess that it is possible you might be missing the nuance of the experience because it does not fall under your radar in the way straights will miss the nuance of gays' experiences and whites will miss the nuance of a black experience, however objectively attentive they may think they are. The status is not the same.

And while certainly the socio-economic situation affects men as well as women in US, the study is not on how women are doing when compared to men in their respective countries, not how women are doing as a sole indicator.

Date rape and cat calling have never been my main interest it this. So while we can talk date rape and not have to wear fake wedding rings (which actually appear to many US men to be a come-on :cute:, so what would be the point?)

I'm interested in leadership roles and the inclusion of more women in tenured science and math and philosophy, of stronger networking between women,
of society finding more adjectives to describe us than the limited array we get which might happen if we weren't lumped in as another class and seen as the individuals we are.

I would like to have a discussion about the essentialism of masculine and feminine and see where we all stand and it is a subject that interests me and affects us all.

However, I will stop here because this is a thread about the boys and I don't want to shortchange them.
 
The catcalling is a serious issue, no doubt, and I do hear that it's worse in places like Italy than here. However, Europe's better social support for children and families is way ahead of the US in creating quality of life for women. Their better economic equality makes a huge difference, too.

Bono Saint, I'm taking a class right now on 20th century American masculinity. It's fascinating, and hearing how the young men's speech reveals thoughts about essentialism and gender roles is most fascinating of all. It's a great subject but I don't think it could be done justice in a forum like this.
 
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