The Truth, Still Inconvenient

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Yes but are you addressing the loaded terminology of "climate change"? Look at your sentence above. Nobody is denying that climate change exists. They are debating how much change comes from anthropogenic CO2 and this is being debated by REAL SCIENTISTS. But that's okay you can talk about people's comprehension all you want but that will likely make it look like you deny there is scientific dissent. Science shouldn't proceed in this bashing kind of way but unfortunately it often can. Wait for information that shows conclusively that positive feedback is the answer and then you'll see less "deniers". As long as peer-reviewed data is showing negative feedback you'll be constantly shocked why "deniers" still exist.

"I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"
No one is denying that climate change is part of the natural changes that occur to the Earth over centuries and epochs. The scientific theory that human pollution is accelerating that natural climate change is supported by 97% of climate scientists and 90% of all scientists (who are usually pretty skeptical by nature, since you know, they're scientists).
 
The main thing the dissenters do is argue that they have the right to dissent. It's a great way to seem like they have a point when they don't.
 
No one is denying that climate change is part of the natural changes that occur to the Earth over centuries and epochs. The scientific theory that human pollution is accelerating that natural climate change is supported by 97% of climate scientists and 90% of all scientists (who are usually pretty skeptical by nature, since you know, they're scientists).

Thanks for ignoring the wikipedia post I put up. Statistical consensus is not science. You're trying to convince people about something that is chaotic and difficult to measure and thinking that a consensus should go to 100%. Forget it. Also it doesn't help when predictions are made and reality shows no "acceleration". It doesn't help that statistical models are "garbage in, and garbage out". The predictions are so bad that the warmers have to say that cooling is also our fault. No wonder belief is decreasing in the general public. There may be some measurable warming from CO2 but nothing catastrophic at all. 2 degrees warming (which we aren't heading for now) would most likely be a benefit and is well withing natural variation on the planet.

Just because people have a lab coat or are full of strong convictions doesn't mean they are right. Appeal to authority is not enough. Any areas of weakness in a theory are the areas that should be tested first. Once the theory has so much detail (like a round earth, and the existence of gravity) then you can laugh people who dissent.

The main thing the dissenters do is argue that they have the right to dissent. It's a great way to seem like they have a point when they don't.

:crack: Yeah because that's all dissenters do. I can tell that you didn't read any of the scientific posts made over the past months.

How much true scientific dissent is out there about ANTHROPOGENIC climate change?

Same as the above post. I posted HOURS of information. You just call it junk science and move on.

What the fuck? Where did the thread "BBC: What happened to global warming?" go? :lol:

This old one was pretty fun though:

http://www.u2interference.com/forum...obal-warming-worse-bono-confesses-183657.html

Climate change is occurring far more rapidly than even the worst predictions of the UN's Nobel Prize-winning scientific panel on climate change, Al Gore said on Thursday.
Recent evidence shows "the climate crisis is significantly worse and unfolding more rapidly than those on the pessimistic side of the IPCC projections had warned us," climate campaigner and former US vice-president Gore said.

There are now forecasts that the North Pole ice caps may disappear entirely during summer months within five years, he told a gathering at the World Economic Forum in Davos.

Fat chance Al Gore! According to that date it would be by the end of 2012. :giggle:
 
wikipedia_slv_il_258_1.jpg
 
Just because people have a lab coat or are full of strong convictions doesn't mean they are right. Appeal to authority is not enough. Any areas of weakness in a theory are the areas that should be tested first. Once the theory has so much detail (like a round earth, and the existence of gravity) then you can laugh people who dissent.

It's comments like this that destroy all credibility you pretend to have. You can't disrespect science as a whole yet say that the minority theory is somehow the truth.

The truth is, that you have no repect for science. You've posted hours and hours of opinion that reflects this.
 

I was responding to the original wikipedia post about the 98%. I'm not saying people should only look into wikipedia.

It's comments like this that destroy all credibility you pretend to have. You can't disrespect science as a whole yet say that the minority theory is somehow the truth.

The truth is, that you have no repect for science. You've posted hours and hours of opinion that reflects this.

I disrespected science by posting skeptical science? "Science" isn't a person that can feel disrespected. It's not about emotions and what you feel. You have to win the argument. That's what convinces people. When I see lots of positive feedback studies and no negative feedback studies and on top of that we see what is predicted in the models you'll see much more people (including meteorologists and geologists) joining the bandwagon. At that point the only argument would be over the solutions. Right now the science is barely starting. There is so much more to learn about natural variation that to say it's settled sounds creepy.
 
I disrespected science by posting skeptical science?
Look at what part of your comment I posted. You consider that "skeptical science"? Really?

And you have about a hundred or more statements just like it.

"Science" isn't a person that can feel disrespected. It's not about emotions and what you feel.
Are you serious? Who said anything about emotions?

You do realize that idealogies, practices, procedures can be disrespected? Right?

This is part of the problem right here.
 
You do realize that idealogies, practices, procedures can be disrespected? Right?

This is part of the problem right here.

This is pointless. There are ideologies EVERYWHERE including right inside your mind. The AGW camp is full of ideologies and a large portion of them are left-wing. The problem is not ideologies, the problem is when testing ideologies to REALITY some ideologies evolve and improve and others don't. If someone says "I'm going to pull out a rabbit from a hat" and the trick isn't doesn't work people will think there's something wrong. If scientists (including "Manhattan underwater in the year 2000" James Hansen) make bad predictions with models then maybe there's some data missing from the model that needs to reflect reality. Maybe there are other things effecting the climate that are not reflected in models. This to me is what I see skeptics doing. I don't see how scientific it is to tell people who criticize perceived flaws to stop.

This isn't disrespect and considering all the "denier" "flat-earth" "racist" comparisons from people like Al Gore and his supporters I don't think disrespect is only one way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfnddMpzPsM
 
This is pointless.

:doh:

This is true, but not for the reasons you think...


I wasn't talking about ideology. I was showing you how you don't understand basic word usage. Emotions and humans are not the only things that can be disrespected.

You don't respect the practice of science, you've shown that time and time again. You don't know how it works. You don't respect the scientific procedure.

We have very basic communication issues here, you keep displaying a lack of reading comprehension. And it keeps happening, three times just in the last 24 hours.

So I'm just going to say goodnight :wave:

It is indeed pointless.
 
:doh:

This is true, but not for the reasons you think...


I wasn't talking about ideology. I was showing you how you don't understand basic word usage. Emotions and humans are not the only things that can be disrespected.

You don't respect the practice of science, you've shown that time and time again. You don't know how it works. You don't respect the scientific procedure.

We have very basic communication issues here, you keep displaying a lack of reading comprehension. And it keeps happening, three times just in the last 24 hours.

So I'm just going to say goodnight :wave:

It is indeed pointless.

:wave: Yes I have shown respect for science. Anyone who says the science is settled doesn't understand reductionism and is assuming more discoveries won't appear to refute the current line. Remember scientists declared global cooling during the 30 year cool period. It seems every 30 year period there is a panic.

And the fight about "ideology" and "lack of science" and blame continues:

New York Times:

http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/a-map-of-organized-climate-change-denial/

Skeptical blog:

http://www.australianclimatemadness.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/climate_alarmism_machine.pdf

Round and round we go.
 
An argument for facism has no merit, whether it is from the Tea Party or from the idiots who produced this video with director Richard Curtis.

The thread has been about scientific research and conclusions. If you want to bring wacky activist groups into it, dredging up the old ecoterrorism meme of the late 80s and 90s then it is to your own detriment.
 
An argument for facism has no merit, whether it is from the Tea Party or from the idiots who produced this video with director Richard Curtis.

The thread has been about scientific research and conclusions. If you want to bring wacky activist groups into it, dredging up the old ecoterrorism meme of the late 80s and 90s then it is to your own detriment.

No it's not. It's very relevant to those who feel eco-weirdos have political sway and groups like Greenpeace and WWF do interfere by making claims that are supposed to be scientific and then are found to be not the case (especially with WWF and the IPCC).

The scandal deepens – IPCC AR4 riddled with non peer reviewed WWF papers | Watts Up With That?
 
the iron horse said:
I think it easier to agree with the overwhelming consensus.

The fish swimming the wrong way are the ones in trouble:ohmy:

That really doesn't answer anything. It basically sounds like you're choosing a stance just for the sake of "going against the grain".

That's just dishonest rebellion.
 
That really doesn't answer anything. It basically sounds like you're choosing a stance just for the sake of "going against the grain".

That's just dishonest rebellion.


No, if you think that then you have not read any of my posts where I have
stated my disbelief(and why) in global warming/climate change.



Today, we had a nice normal fall day in the South.

It was beautiful:wave:
 
the iron horse said:
No, if you think that then you have not read any of my posts where I have
stated my disbelief(and why) in global warming/climate change.

Today, we had a nice normal fall day in the South.

It was beautiful:wave:

Oh I've read your posts and I've never seen anything convincing. I remember some blogs written by people who weren't scientists and some very questionable conspiracy theory type websites.
 
Oh I've read your posts and I've never seen anything convincing. I remember some blogs written by people who weren't scientists and some very questionable conspiracy theory type websites.


Well, I guess we can have a friendly disagreement.

Wishing you the best in weather to come :applaud:
 
Of course we can have friendly disagreement, but what I wish from you some day is compelling reasoning why. I don't think you've read the science on all sides and then came up with an answer.

Weather and climate are not the same, that's probably a good place to start in understanding this subject.
 
Of course we can have friendly disagreement, but what I wish from you some day is compelling reasoning why. I don't think you've read the science on all sides and then came up with an answer.

Weather and climate are not the same, that's probably a good place to start in understanding this subject.




I have read both sides of this topic.


I don't believe Al Gore or the ones who agree with him.


It ain't happening.
 
I have read both sides of this topic.


I don't believe Al Gore or the ones who agree with him.


It ain't happening.
Well, it's your right to go against the overwhelming majority in scientific opinion.

Al Gore has nothing to do with it, although I feel for you it might help to lump him in with Michael Moore and just flush it away as liberal Hollywood and hippy conservation bullshit.
 
the iron horse said:
I have read both sides of this topic.

I don't believe Al Gore or the ones who agree with him.

It ain't happening.

If you have read the science then I don't think you understand it. You keep using weather and climate interchangeably, you post questionable websites, and you always bring up Gore. This is not a real understanding of the issue.

Show me real science and then we'll talk. :wave:
 
Global warming study finds no grounds for climate sceptics' concerns.
Independent investigation of the key issues sceptics claim can skew global warming figures reports that they have no real effect
Ian Sample, science correspondent
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 20 October 2011 18.50 BST

The world is getting warmer, countering the doubts of climate change sceptics about the validity of some of the scientific evidence, according to the most comprehensive independent review of historical temperature records to date.

Scientists at the University of California, Berkeley, found several key issues that sceptics claim can skew global warming figures had no meaningful effect.

The Berkeley Earth project compiled more than a billion temperature records dating back to the 1800s from 15 sources around the world and found that the average global land temperature has risen by around 1C since the mid-1950s.

This figure agrees with the estimate arrived at by major groups that maintain official records on the world's climate, including Nasa's Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York, the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (Noaa), and the Met Office's Hadley Centre, with the University of East Anglia, in the UK.

"My hope is that this will win over those people who are properly sceptical," Richard Muller, a physicist and head of the project, said.

"Some people lump the properly sceptical in with the deniers and that makes it easy to dismiss them, because the deniers pay no attention to science. But there have been people out there who have raised legitimate issues."

Muller sought to cool the debate over climate change by creating the largest open database of temperature records, with the aim of producing a transparent and independent assessment of global warming.

The initial reluctance of government groups to release all their methods and data, and the fiasco over emails from the University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit in 2009, gave the project added impetus.

The team, which includes Saul Perlmutter, joint winner of this year's Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery that the universe is expanding at an increasing rate, has submitted four papers to the journal Geophysical Research Letters that describe their work to date.

Going public with results before they are peer-reviewed is not standard practice, but Muller said the decision to circulate the papers before publication was part a long-standing academic tradition of sanity-checking results with colleagues.

"We will get much more feedback from making these papers public before publication," he said.

Climate sceptics have criticised official global warming figures on the grounds that many temperature stations are poor quality and that data are tweaked by hand.

However, the Berkeley study found that the so-called urban heat island effect, which makes cities warmer than surrounding rural areas, is locally large and real, but does not contribute significantly to average land temperature rises. This is because urban regions make up less than 1% of the Earth's land area. And while stations considered "poor" might be less accurate, they recorded the same average warming trend.

"We have looked at these issues in a straightforward, transparent way, and based on that, I would expect legitimate sceptics to feel their issues have been addressed," Muller said.

Nevertheless, one prominent US climate sceptic, Anthony Watts, claimed to have identified a "basic procedural error" concerning time periods used in the research, and urged the authors to revise the paper.

Jim Hansen, head of Nasa's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, said he had not read the research papers but was glad Muller was looking at the issue, describing him as "a top-notch physicist". "It should help inform those who have honest scepticism about global warming.

"Of course, presuming that he basically confirms what we have been reporting, the deniers will then decide that he is a crook or has some ulterior motive.

"As I have discussed in the past, the deniers, or contrarians, if you will, do not act as scientists, but rather as lawyers."

"As soon as they see evidence against their client (the fossil fuel industry and those people making money off business-as-usual), they trash that evidence and bring forth whatever tidbits they can find to confuse the judge and jury."

Peter Thorne at the Cooperative Institute for Climate and Satellites in North Carolina and chair of the International Surface Temperature Initiative, said: "This takes a very distinct approach to the problem and comes up with the same answer, and that builds confidence that pre-existing estimates are in the right ballpark. There is very substantial value in having multiple groups looking at the same problem in different ways.

"Openness and transparency is a must, particularly now with climate change being so politicised, but more to the point, with the huge socioeconomic decisions that rest on it."

Phil Jones, the director of the Climatic Research Unit at UEA who was at the centre of the Climategate incident, said: "I look forward to reading the finalised paper once it has been reviewed and published. These initial findings are very encouraging and echo our own results and our conclusion that the impact of urban heat islands on the overall global temperature is minimal."

The Berkeley Earth project has been attacked by some climate bloggers, who point out that one of the funders runs Koch Industries, a company Greenpeace called a "financial kingpin of climate science denial".

Muller points out the project is organised under the auspices of Novim, a Santa Barbara-based nonprofit organisation that uses science to find answers to the most pressing issues facing society and to publish them "without advocacy or agenda".

Other donors include the Fund for Innovative Climate and Energy Research (funded by Bill Gates), and the Department of Energy's Lawrence Berkeley Lab. The next phase of the project will focus on warming trends in the oceans.

Some scientists were critical of the project and Muller's decision to release the papers before they had been peer reviewed.

Peter Cox, professor of climate system dynamics at Exeter University said: "These studies seem to confirm the global warming estimated from the existing datasets, which is pleasing but not exactly a surprise to those of us who know how carefully the existing datasets are put together.

"It is surprising, however, that the authors believe that this news is so significant that they can't wait for peer review, especially when their conclusions aren't exactly revolutionary."

Amusing that this was partly funded by Koch Industries.
 
This is their second study funded that I know of that backfired on them. The first one was pretty public because they soley funded it and they didn't want the findings published.

Pathetic :giggle:
 
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