The Toll of the Anti-Vaccine Movement

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by anitram

Yes, we have annual pap smears. My co-worker, despite having had them annually was diagnosed with Stage IIB, which has something like a 55% 5-year survival rate. Getting annual smears is good but it requires that people be diligent about actually going every year. And even so, if you get a particularly aggressive growing cancer, 12 months is a long time to have it grow unchecked.

I have also read a lot of things about Gardasil and the deaths/adverse reactions. I still strongly feel that you are way better getting it than not.

this is what i was thinking re. safe sex (from the SmPC for Gardasil):

Gardasil will only protect against diseases that are caused by HPV types 6, 11, 16 and 18 and to a limited extent against diseases caused by certain related HPV types (See section 5.1). Therefore, appropriate precautions against sexually transmitted diseases should continue to be used.

really do not like the possible side effects, plus there are reports on some really serious immune ones such as ITP (and encephalomyelitis which hasn't yet been included in the product information but is being monitored)... i don't know, if you still have to protect yourself from other STDs and use condoms anyway which would offer protection from HPV, i'm just not convinced it is entirely necessary with the proper education... it's not like an airborne or water-borne disease...

[bono_212]

I'm still a little skeptical about the HPV vaccine. I've just head so many varying stories about whether or not it's safe. That's the only vaccine, though, that I've avoided.

[Galeongirl]

Originally Posted by mama cass

i hate the internet sometimes - there are some scary zealots out there...

Yeah, it once again just proves that the anonymity of the internet shows people's true colours, and it ain't pretty!

Originally Posted by mama cass

oh the autism link has been debunked...

TB is a major worry these days, and is on the increase - i read recently that there have been some worrying outbreaks in London...

Was there even a serious autism link in the beginning? I mean, how the heck can you go from a vaccination to a completely different brain and genes?



I do have to admit, with things like the HPV I'd be a little sceptical at first, and you're right in waiting it out a bit. But with things like the measles or polio, the effectiveness of the vaccine has been proven 100%, which makes this a no brainer.
The pharmaceutical industry is very tightly regulated these days, making the chance to have another Softenon disaster very, very small.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by mama cass

one thing i was led to believe was that safe sex can help prevent transmission, like for HIV and other transmissible diseases, no? (here in France, they are also big on the hepatitis B vaccine)

Yes, if you always have sex with condoms, that will prevent the spread. This is why although the vaccine is aimed at young girls, you don't actually need to be a virgin to get it, you just either need to have always had protected sex (condom) or maybe have had unprotected sex with only one partner, in which case maybe he didn't expose you or if he did you hope that the exposure was to one or two strains at most.

I guess the question is how much do you trust teenagers to use condoms each time? My level of trust is essentially zero which is why I would immunize my daughters, no question.

Also, even if you accept as a fact that the serious side effects exist (debatable), they are so rare while cervical cancer is not. Moreover, the survival rates for cancers of the female reproductive system are actually quite poor...so I'd rather take my chances with a very rare side effect (if one exists at all) than with a pretty good shot at a death sentence.

[anitram]

I think for me, part of it is also the very parroted "big pharma is making money" stuff that gets repeated, often without so much as a critical thought.

In my past life, before I went to law school, I had planned on doing a PhD in medical science (immunology). And people slave for decades, earning very little money and absolutely no recognition in determining which strains of HPV are linked to cancer and then helping develop the vaccine. Big pharma ONLY gets involved at the very end when they think that they have a viable process. I don't think that most people have any understanding of how medical research works. The real down and dirty work is done in labs in hospitals and universities and believe me these people are not seeing a dime of profit. They are the real heroes of our society.

Does big pharma make money off these vaccines? Yes, undoubtedly. But does that necessarily mean that the vaccines are unnecessary, dangerous and without merit? No.

[Danny Boy]

Originally Posted by anitram

Does big pharma make money off these vaccines? Yes, undoubtedly.

Actually no, not really. Maybe on some of the newer vaccines like Gardasil, but the patents have long since expired on vaccines like measles, polio, pertussis, etc.

In Washington State the Washington Vaccine Association purchases vaccines and gives them out to practices to administer because pediatricians would lose money on vaccination programs if they had to purchase them themselves.

[LJT]

Chance of pharmaceutical fuck-up is so much less than the risk of polio or measles.

There are many problems with the industry but vaccinations aren't one.

To be honest I would find most anti-vaccine folk hilarious if it wasn't for the consequences of their views. Fact is when you meet them you find anti-vaccination is often the least of the conspiracy theories they believe.

[anitram]

Yes, most of them have lapsed patents, but not all of those are profit losers.

And there are new ones like Gardasil, Twinrix, Dukoral, etc which are still under patent. Gardasil itself is very expensive.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by digitize

The anti-vaccine movement should be a punching bag that all of FYM can agree to hit.

Agreed that this idiocy is bipartisan.

But let me add:

1) Most vaccine companies have left the country due to medical lawsuits. This falls directly on the Democratic Party which resists all attempts at tort reform.

2) Illegal immigration greatly exacerbates this problem. Am I allowed to say that?

[Rachel D.]

My doctor(s) said that I need to get Gardasil "just in case" I become sexually active, as if that's something beyond my control that just happens. That's insulting. I'm not a stray cat. I don't have a problem with vaccines, but Gardasil is dangerous and not worth the risk. And I had to wonder why various doctors over the past few years have been pushing me to get it when I'm obviously not someone who needs to worry about STDs. $$$?

[anitram]

Originally Posted by Rachel D.

I don't have a problem with vaccines, but Gardasil is dangerous and not worth the risk.

Which peer reviewed study convinced you of this?

And I had to wonder why various doctors over the past few years have been pushing me to get it when I'm obviously not someone who needs to worry about STDs. $$$?

Any man who has ever had sex (with a woman or a man) without a condom is a potential HPV carrier. Any woman who has had sex with a man without a condom is potentially infected. So for the few women who die virgins or the few women who only sleep with men themselves are virgins or who were diligent EACH TIME they had sex and used a condom EACH TIME, yes, they don't need Gardasil. For the rest of us, i.e. nearly everyone, it isn't about being "the sort" of person who gets STDs. Wow, honestly.

[corianderstem]

[Irvine511]

Thinking that there's "a sort" of person who gets STDs is really dangerous.

Treat everyone as if they have an STD until you know otherwise.

[Danny Boy]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Agreed that this idiocy is bipartisan.



But let me add:



1) Most vaccine companies have left the country due to medical lawsuits. This falls directly on the Democratic Party which resists all attempts at tort reform.



2) Illegal immigration greatly exacerbates this problem. Am I allowed to say that?

You are allowed to say whatever you want.

However, the US has had the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program since 1986 to protect vaccine manufacturers from frivolous lawsuits and to buffer them from having to pay large settlements. The bill was authored by Henry Waxman, who I'm sure you are aware is a democrat.

[Galeongirl]

We just had big news in the paper today, that the vaccine we use for HPV has shown to be extra effective in girls below 15 years of age. So they now will receive 2 shots instead of 3. With older girls the effect isn't as significant, so they'll still receive 3. I have no idea which variant of the vaccine we have, but it also mentioned that it treats the two varieties of the disease that covers 70% of the cases.

[LadySpinHead]

I know several women who are in committed, loving marriages, who got HPV from their husbands. It is SO common. I wish the vaccine was available when my friends and I were teens.

And, as a new mom, I can say that to vaccinate or not is a big issue in the "mommy wars." Several months ago I had dinner with a group of pregnant women and the issue of vaccinations brought the table to a heated discussion and then stony silence- way more than the usual suspects of breastfeeding vs. formula and cloth diapers vs disposables. And I'll add that my cousin didn't believe in vaccinations until her infant son was hospitalized and almost died from RSV.

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by LadySpinHead

And, as a new mom, I can say that to vaccinate or not is a big issue in the "mommy wars." Several months ago I had dinner with a group of pregnant women and the issue of vaccinations brought the table to a heated discussion and then stony silence- way more than the usual suspects of breastfeeding vs. formula and cloth diapers vs disposables. And I'll add that my cousin didn't believe in vaccinations until her infant son was hospitalized and almost died from RSV.

wow! it wasn't that bad when i was a new mum - it was very rare NOT to vaccinate back then, despite the current MMR scare at the time...

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Treat everyone as if they have an STD until you know otherwise.

that's sensible

[anitram]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Thinking that there's "a sort" of person who gets STDs is really dangerous.

Treat everyone as if they have an STD until you know otherwise.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by anitram

Any man who has ever had sex (with a woman or a man) without a condom is a potential HPV carrier. Any woman who has had sex with a man without a condom is potentially infected. So for the few women who die virgins or the few women who only sleep with men themselves are virgins or who were diligent EACH TIME they had sex and used a condom EACH TIME, yes, they don't need Gardasil. For the rest of us, i.e. nearly everyone, it isn't about being "the sort" of person who gets STDs. Wow, honestly.

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Thinking that there's "a sort" of person who gets STDs is really dangerous.

Treat everyone as if they have an STD until you know otherwise.

The myth that you can tell that someone is clean comes to mind here.