The Religion of Peace? - Page 6 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-06-2013, 12:09 PM   #101
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,622
Local Time: 02:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
Because you're able to see religion for the bullshit that it is.
Gee, I can't imagine why religious people would be reluctant to engage you in a discussion about religion.
__________________

Diemen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 12:16 PM   #102
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,228
Local Time: 02:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
The simpleton's approach? As opposed to your completely nuanced "nope. not religions fault" approach? You're not even willing to dissect religious teachings and take some while condemning others.
No, just because you are arguing that it's purely religion's fault, does not mean I am arguing that it's purely not religion's fault.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
"Socio-economic factors will take part in what side one will usually fall on."
For the last time, WHAT socio-economic factors?
How about one that you already conceded to; education?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
And I'll ask you again, are you not willing to concede that there are parts of religion that are problem causing in this case?
I believe that religion will produce leaders, followers, and everything in between. The leaders preaching the word can manipulate, spin, or even "interpret" they way they'd like. The economics, education, and personal curiosity will determine how the followers will understand. Religions can be used for good, for bad, and everything in between. To pretend that you know that the Muslim who chases down and kills the infidel is practicing the purest form of the religion's original intent is quite absurd, and to pretend that other factors won't take part in how the religion is understood by its followers, or even by you is ridiculous. The violence does not survive in a vacuum.
__________________

BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 12:20 PM   #103
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,228
Local Time: 02:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
right, because you'd rather dodge all the questions that poll answers
The first sentence alone makes it clear that there is no blanket understanding of Sharia Law.

Quote:
Yet some of its staunchest backers are also strong supporters of religious pluralism
Religious pluralism would not be tolerable under some definitions of Sharia Law, so right off the bat it's clear there is no absolute.
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 12:20 PM   #104
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 04:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
Gee, I can't imagine why religious people would be reluctant to engage you in a discussion about religion.
I'm supposed to pretend it's not bullshit? It's not my problem if people are offended by that.
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 12:23 PM   #105
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 04:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
No, just because you are arguing that it's purely religion's fault, does not mean I am arguing that it's purely not religion's fault.



How about one that you already conceded to; education?

I believe that religion will produce leaders, followers, and everything in between. The leaders preaching the word can manipulate, spin, or even "interpret" they way they'd like. The economics, education, and personal curiosity will determine how the followers will understand. Religions can be used for good, for bad, and everything in between. To pretend that you know that the Muslim who chases down and kills the infidel is practicing the purest form of the religion's original intent is quite absurd, and to pretend that other factors won't take part in how the religion is understood by its followers, or even by you is ridiculous. The violence does not survive in a vacuum.
You're intentionally clouding the subject. Yes, of course there is more than one factor. But at the very heart of it is religion and people clinging to irrational beliefs.
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 12:23 PM   #106
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 04:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post



How about one that you already conceded to; education?
You mean the one that leads people further from religion and toward rational thought? You're supporting my argument with that one. Any more?
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 12:28 PM   #107
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,741
Local Time: 04:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
I'm supposed to pretend it's not bullshit? It's not my problem if people are offended by that.
I'm with Diemen on this. Most people wouldn't discuss anything with someone who gets rude during discussion. Put it this way, would you want to discuss religion with someone who thinks atheism/agnosticism is bullshit and uses the same tone as you do?
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 12:28 PM   #108
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,228
Local Time: 02:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
You mean the one that leads people further from religion and toward rational thought?
And now we have come full circle to see the real reason for your thread. Your pretending to truly "engage" was so completely disingenuous.

BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 12:38 PM   #109
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 04:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
I'm with Diemen on this. Most people wouldn't discuss anything with someone who gets rude during discussion. Put it this way, would you want to discuss religion with someone who thinks atheism/agnosticism is bullshit and uses the same tone as you do?
I'd be fine with that. I assume that most religious people think atheism is bullshit, whether they phrase it that way or not. And every religious person thinks every other religion is bullshit, whether they phrase it that way or not. If you're secure in your position, you won't be offended.
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 12:39 PM   #110
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 04:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
And now we have come full circle to see the real reason for your thread. Your pretending to truly "engage" was so completely disingenuous.

What does this even mean? What is my "real reason for this thread"? My position is coherent, rational, consistent, and completely genuine (how many of those can you check off?). I guess it's an easy out for you though, so see ya. Good job not proving (or even having, it seems) any point whatsoever. At least now you get to pretend that you're leaving having done so.
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 12:45 PM   #111
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,741
Local Time: 04:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
I'd be fine with that. I assume that most religious people think atheism is bullshit, whether they phrase it that way or not. And every religious person thinks every other religion is bullshit, whether they phrase it that way or not. If you're secure in your position, you won't be offended.
OK, but who really likes abrasiveness during discussions? Even the most staunch atheist can be considerate with tone and language, and see that rudeness creates a split between the those involved - as a sort of us vs. them.
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 12:56 PM   #112
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 04:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
OK, but who really likes abrasiveness during discussions? Even the most staunch atheist can be considerate with tone and language, and see that rudeness creates a split between the those involved - as a sort of us vs. them.
In my defense, my language is fairly consistent in all parts of the forum
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 04:58 PM   #113
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,600
Local Time: 12:11 AM
a change in style
could alleviate the need for a defense.
deep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 05:10 PM   #114
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 04:11 AM
I'm not going to change my style depending on the topic. That would be dishonest
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 05:16 PM   #115
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,600
Local Time: 12:11 AM
I modify /make changes from time to time.

What's honest and dishonest, that's kind of funny.

I used to think my style defined me.
A style is no more a person than an opinion, they can and should be changed, when better ones are available.
deep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 05:34 PM   #116
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 04:11 AM
I'm not going to stop using naughty words because I'm writing about religion (I only used the word style because you did). I'm not defined by it; I'm just not going to edit myself.

I agree with your last point completely
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 10:25 PM   #117
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,622
Local Time: 02:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
I'm not going to change my style depending on the topic. That would be dishonest
It might help changing your overall style in FYM at least. It wouldn't be dishonest to try to be more patient with people who don't share your viewpoint.

I mean, what incentive is there for someone with a different position than you to engage you in discussion about religion if you're just going to shoot them down, insult their intelligence and call their belief system bullshit?

It's a shitty way to treat others. Probably because you don't have a good set of religious morals.

Diemen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 10:46 PM   #118
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 04:11 AM
whon whonnnnnn

I get frustrated when people refuse to address any real points and are more interested in making the same baseless declarations about their own stance (which would be fine if they weren't masquerading as someone interested in actual debate). You can see that this thread started off on a reasonable note. I'm more than happy to have a civil discussion with anyone about anything. But the mere act of criticizing religion puts people on the defensive and I refuse to pussy foot around it. You'll also see that I wasn't the one to deal the first insult. People decide for themselves how they're going to be treated. I'm happy to deal with them that way (I know what you think about that ). But I'm more happy when they see themselves out of the conversation (even if it takes some faux, insincere 'victory' by them first) so civil conversation can resume.

My point is this: If I were to say current gun laws are bullshit, nobody would bat an eye. If I were to say the conservative party's platform in this country is bullshit, nobody would get all uppity. On principle alone, I refuse to treat religion with a disproportionate amount of respect. Besides, I think I was able to make it to page 2 without any swears

I will try to be more Sam Harris, less Christopher Hitchens (minus the intellect), but I can't make any promises
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 12:04 AM   #119
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Kieran McConville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Kony Island Baby
Posts: 10,244
Local Time: 06:11 PM
I could care less about the tone, although, be abrasive and expect the same in return. But it's the intellectual dishonesty that annoys me. In this one instance I am with BVS: fundamentalism doesn't mean what you insist it means and so the whole discussion is off at cross-purposes right there.
Kieran McConville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 12:18 AM   #120
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 04:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieran McConville View Post
I could care less about the tone, although, be abrasive and expect the same in return. But it's the intellectual dishonesty that annoys me. In this one instance I am with BVS: fundamentalism doesn't mean what you insist it means and so the whole discussion is off at cross-purposes right there.
I'm not being intellectually dishonest. Nothing I ever say is dishonest. I'm not a bullshitter. But go ahead an define fundamentalism as you see it.

And you couldn't care less *bwink*
__________________

Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×