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Old 04-30-2013, 11:28 PM   #21
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I mean, what exactly is meant by 'it's the environment'? What economic conditions lead to "if you leave Islam, you should be put to death"?
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:31 PM   #22
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I mean, what exactly is meant by 'it's the environment'? What economic conditions lead to "if you leave Islam, you should be put to death"?
Colonialism, (semi-)post-colonial resentment of the West, and, perhaps most critically, seeming lack of incentives to behave like "the West" borne by a century and a half's worth of the aforementioned issues. And social pressure borne by that lack of incentives.
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:32 PM   #23
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What separates a country like India from a country like Jordan?
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:34 PM   #24
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Colonialism, (semi-)post-colonial resentment of the West, and, perhaps most critically, seeming lack of incentives to behave like "the West" borne by a century and a half's worth of the aforementioned issues. And social pressure borne by that lack of incentives.
The death penalty for apostasy certainly didn't come about in the past century and a half. And who said anything about leaving Islam for any western ideology?
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:34 PM   #25
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I'm not sure. But we need to recognize that it is a religious issue, Islam is an especially violent religion, and all this talk of 'the religion of peace/it's not the religion, it's the environment' is sticking ones head in the ground
IF it is a religious issue, then how is it that so many devout Muslims can live a peaceful life devoid of any violent tendencies, yet environmentally impacted people like domestic abusers and racists take education and training in order to live peaceful lives devoid of hate?
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:39 PM   #26
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The death penalty for apostasy certainly didn't come about in the past century and a half.
Are you not aware of secular societies having death penalties for treason(which could just be a matter of speech)?
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:43 PM   #27
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What separates a country like India from a country like Jordan?
Jordan's not the best example to use there, because of its prosperity relative to, say, Syria, Lebanon, Afghaniatan, Iran, Yemen, and the like. But, regardless, India is a society on the upswing. It did face the sort of anti-colonial resentment that is alive and well in the Islamic world today, but the British were wise enough to yield to it. Today, India has opportunity in its interaction with the west. Which is very different from the Middle East.

Of course, some (Indy and possibly you) will claim that I have the causal chain reversed - that it is India's values causing its relative prosperity. Perhaps I am too fixed in my semi-deterministic views. And certainly values like radical Islam do not do wonders for economic growth. However, I think that the causal chain starts with the environment. Maybe I just like to avoid social darwinism, but it has been incredibly well demonstrated over the past century how malleable nominal beliefs (such as religion) are in how one lives when faced with different circumstances. Evolutionary psychology, situationism, and behavioral economics tie right into this.

This is a shitty post, but I'm on my phone and I don't want to write the stock dissertation that I write once every quarter or so on this subject on this forum.
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:57 PM   #28
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Jordan's not the best example to use there, because of its prosperity relative to, say, Syria, Lebanon, Afghaniatan, Iran, Yemen, and the like.
This is exactly why it is a fine example. And they were one of the worst offenders!
And to write off colonialism in India is unfair when colonialism is one of your main points.
Religion is the difference
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:58 PM   #29
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IF it is a religious issue, then how is it that so many devout Muslims can live a peaceful life devoid of any violent tendencies, yet environmentally impacted people like domestic abusers and racists take education and training in order to live peaceful lives devoid of hate?
Nobody is claiming it's 100% of muslims. Just 85% or so in some countries.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:02 AM   #30
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Are you not aware of secular societies having death penalties for treason(which could just be a matter of speech)?
Do you hear about them bashing people's heads in with rocks very often? or ever?
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:09 AM   #31
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Nobody is claiming it's 100% of muslims. Just 85% or so in some countries.
You're missing the point INDY style.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:14 AM   #32
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You're missing the point INDY style.
Well then be a dear and and write something useful besides "you're missing the point".
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:16 AM   #33
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You guys like to claim the "miniscule portion" of fundamentalists to defend Christianity, yet when a vast majority of muslims are exhibiting the same behaviour, suddenly it's not about proportions
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:16 AM   #34
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Do you hear about them bashing people's heads in with rocks very often? or ever?
Well we were talking about the last "century and a half" and I'm not really sure if the means makes any difference. Rocks, guillotine, hanging, cross, electric chair... does really make a big difference?
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:18 AM   #35
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"It's environmental"... well yes, it's an environment that is permeated by a violent religion
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:20 AM   #36
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Well we were talking about the last "century and a half" and I'm not really sure if the means makes any difference. Rocks, guillotine, hanging, cross, electric chair... does really make a big difference?
we're talking about bashing the heads in of gays, women, and people who want to leave the religion. Today...like, in the 21st century.... it seems you've lost the plot somewhere
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:24 AM   #37
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Well then be a dear and and write something useful besides "you're missing the point".
We've all been trying Jive.

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Just 85% or so in some countries
You are talking about countries, not religions. These countries have certain socio-economic factors. This religion outside of these factors seems to not have a violent effect. Death penalty for not going along with the government has lasted since the dawn of government regardless of religion.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:39 AM   #38
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We've all been trying Jive.
Give me a fucking break. Don't talk to me like I'm fucking diamond.

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You are talking about countries, not religions. These countries have certain socio-economic factors. This religion outside of these factors seems to not have a violent effect. Death penalty for not going along with the government has lasted since the dawn of government regardless of religion.
No I'm not. I'm talking about religion in Islamic countries. In their holy book it says death to apostates. That is where they're getting it from. They aren't getting it from some regime that's trying to control their every move. I brought up Jordan; a relatively well off country with almost no issues with US or the West. They aren't part of this imaginary 'socio-economic' causality that you want to wave your hand over, yet never want to give specifics on. And they're one of the worst offenders in the study. 'socio-economic' is your 'judeo-christian'
Yes, of course there are muslims who aren't violent. They're in the minority and they're moderates (ie, they don't abide as closely to the tenants of Islam).
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:43 AM   #39
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we're talking about bashing the heads in of gays, women, and people who want to leave the religion. Today...like, in the 21st century.... it seems you've lost the plot somewhere
I haven't lost the plot. BUT, I'm a realist. I know that with economic growth, the removal of a theocracy, and education these killings would diminish. The removal of the religion would do nothing.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:45 AM   #40
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Realist? You guys turn in to cowering pussies when the word religion is brought up. If these laws were written in a government's law book instead, had nothing to do with religion, and everyone was abiding by it, you'd be up in arms
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