The Religion of Peace? - Page 14 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-17-2013, 12:04 PM   #261
Self-righteous bullshitter
 
BoMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Soviet Canuckistan — Socialist paradise
Posts: 16,899
Local Time: 04:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
You keep equating politics and religion as if they occupy the same space in a person or serve the same purposes. Maybe you're being purposefully obtuse, but surely you can understand why people take religion more personally than politics.
I think they're totally different. To me, someone's political beliefs are about their present and future on Earth, while many exhibit faith in religion/God because of a desire to believe in an afterlife. In that respect, it's much more of a personal aspect for many people, which is why I respect what they believe, even if I don't myself.

Not sure if that makes sense to anyone else.
__________________

__________________

BoMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 12:24 PM   #262
ONE
love, blood, life
 
iron yuppie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 10,362
Local Time: 01:58 AM
If religion were solely or even primarily about the afterlife, you wouldn't see nearly as much effort from institutional religion to influence politics and influence the behavior of society writ-large. And I understand the whole pre-millennial vantage point, but even that had heavy political overtones.
__________________

iron yuppie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 12:26 PM   #263
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
You keep equating politics and religion as if they occupy the same space in a person or serve the same purposes. Maybe you're being purposefully obtuse, but surely you can understand why people take religion more personally than politics.
I refuse to believe someone's ideology in untouchable. Not purposefully obtuse (not obtuse at all), just perfectly rational. I don't hold any beliefs that I think nobody can question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoMac View Post
I think they're totally different. To me, someone's political beliefs are about their present and future on Earth, while many exhibit faith in religion/God because of a desire to believe in an afterlife. In that respect, it's much more of a personal aspect for many people, which is why I respect what they believe, even if I don't myself.

Not sure if that makes sense to anyone else.
You make sense.
But why can't someone discuss, refute, or question any of it without being labeled militant or strident? I'll not be told that someone has a belief that I need to show a disproportionate level of respect to. Pearl's response is the perfect example of how irrationally defensive people can get over what amounts to a fairly benign series of posts
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 12:29 PM   #264
Self-righteous bullshitter
 
BoMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Soviet Canuckistan — Socialist paradise
Posts: 16,899
Local Time: 04:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iron yuppie View Post
If religion were solely or even primarily about the afterlife, you wouldn't see nearly as much effort from institutional religion to influence politics and influence the behavior of society writ-large. And I understand the whole pre-millennial vantage point, but even that had heavy political overtones.
True, but I'm not referring to organized or institutional religion, per se. What the Pope does to influence politics and society is what he does, but the average faith-based person has his/her own reasons for believing, and very often it's at a more personal level than political beliefs.
__________________

BoMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 12:31 PM   #265
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,622
Local Time: 01:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
I refuse to believe someone's ideology in untouchable.
I never said it was untouchable, but you keep complaining that people take criticism about their religion more personally than criticism about their politics, as if the two are on the same level.
Diemen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 12:33 PM   #266
ONE
love, blood, life
 
iron yuppie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 10,362
Local Time: 01:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoMac View Post

True, but I'm not referring to organized or institutional religion, per se. What the Pope does to influence politics and society is what he does, but the average faith-based person has his/her own reasons for believing, and very often it's at a more personal level than political beliefs.
I see your point. The counterpoint would be that people who identify as one faith or another, in the US at least, tend to vote along very similar lines. I understand that might be a false correlation, though.
iron yuppie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 12:34 PM   #267
Self-righteous bullshitter
 
BoMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Soviet Canuckistan — Socialist paradise
Posts: 16,899
Local Time: 04:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
You make sense.
But why can't someone discuss, refute, or question any of it without being labeled militant or strident? I'll not be told that someone has a belief that I need to show a disproportionate level of respect to. Pearl's response is the perfect example of how irrationally defensive people can get over what amounts to a fairly benign series of posts
You can discuss, refute, or question just about anything, and if it's done in a respectful manner, I can guarantee you will never be labelled a militant.

Pearl's "defensiveness" reflects more with how you engage with people on this topic than on her personally.

You're unapologetic about it, and that's fine, but it's not a huge surprise that people who disagree with your viewpoint react the way they do.
__________________

BoMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 12:40 PM   #268
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoMac View Post
You can discuss, refute, or question just about anything, and if it's done in a respectful manner, I can guarantee you will never be labelled a militant.

Pearl's "defensiveness" reflects more with how you engage with people on this topic than on her personally.

You're unapologetic about it, and that's fine, but it's not a huge surprise that people who disagree with your viewpoint react the way they do.
But I was more than fair to Pearl, gave her the benefit of the doubt, tip toed around, and yet she still flew off the handle. I mean, read what I wrote. There was nothing offensive about it (and I can be so much more offensive! ).
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 12:48 PM   #269
War Child
 
Caleb8844's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 662
Local Time: 02:58 AM
I consider myself a Christian, and I've followed this thread from the first page, albeit I haven't had the time to be involved in it. I see less than no problem with what Jive has been saying, or how he's been saying it. People DO treat religion as an untouchable topic. "It sounds like you're more of an agnostic," is controlling an abusive? I can't even grasp the logic someone would have to have to conclude that.

Yes, religion is a touchy, personal subject. But so are some aspects of politics. I can't imagine someone getting outraged if someone told them "it seems like you're more of a pro-choicer than a hard-line pro-lifer." No, if they disagreed with the label, they'd explain how their views differ from pro-choice views.
Caleb8844 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 12:49 PM   #270
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
I never said it was untouchable, but you keep complaining that people take criticism about their religion more personally than criticism about their politics, as if the two are on the same level.
I totally get what you guys are saying. I just feel like the defensiveness comes from a lack of confidence.
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 12:50 PM   #271
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,741
Local Time: 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
And all this nonesense about trying to "control" you, telling you who you are, being abusive really don't mean anything. It's a complete overreaction on your part. If you don't want to continue with the thread, that's fine. But ask yourself if you'd do the same had I said "I feel like you're more of a neo conservative"
Yes, it does mean something.

By trying to convince me that I'm really agnostic and should embrace it, really sounded like you were once again saying anyone who isn't fundamentalist can't really be what they claim to be. If a Christian doesn't believe in creation, then they can't consider themselves Christian. That to me sounds like you are trying to convince someone they aren't what they say they are, and should stop the charades. Why is it so important to you to label people's beliefs?

Politics is more about the country, city, group of people. It is about making society work. Religion, faith, or spirituality, is about the individual. It gives meaning to life, it can explain life, and it offers hope in so many ways. Now, obviously plenty have destroyed that and turned religion into a huge mess. But most people I know who have some sort of faith have it for personal reasons, not to make society work.

I get it you don't believe there is a God and think religion isn't worth it. I'm cool with that. What I don't like is for you go on a rant about something that is personal for a lot of people. If you are upset about religion infiltrating politics, I can get that because I believe in separation of church and state. But to seemingly obsess over what people do on their own time that isn't hurting anyone, baffles me. So, believing in a God is bizarre to you. OK. As I said before, astrology and radical vegetarianism is bizarre to me, too. But I wouldn't say that those people aren't what they claim to be because they don't live up to my definition of those groups.

It also doesn't help that I haven't had many good experiences with atheists, and I have mentioned a few incidents. The results are that I'm wary about them, and I tend to get overly defensive around them. Because what, are they going to try to pour whatever my head? Are they going to say nasty stuff at me for wearing a cross or ashes on my forehead?

I know you've said those people are assholes, and I'm not equating you with them. But honestly, in this thread, you're acting like Penn Teller, Sam Harris and all the others who aren't flexible at all when discussing this kind of topic. It's your view and no other. That really isn't fair and not good FYM debate.

And I honestly don't think you drink too much. Yes, you had a few earlier but I never once thought you have a problem. That was me fuming.

I may overreact, but I think getting overly defensive is what I really do.
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 12:51 PM   #272
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb8844 View Post
I consider myself a Christian, and I've followed this thread from the first page, albeit I haven't had the time to be involved in it. I see less than no problem with what Jive has been saying, or how he's been saying it. People DO treat religion as an untouchable topic. "It sounds like you're more of an agnostic," is controlling an abusive? I can't even grasp the logic someone would have to have to conclude that.

Yes, religion is a touchy, personal subject. But so are some aspects of politics. I can't imagine someone getting outraged if someone told them "it seems like you're more of a pro-choicer than a hard-line pro-lifer." No, if they disagreed with the label, they'd explain how their views differ from pro-choice views.
Thanks Caleb
You should jump in more often!
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 12:58 PM   #273
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
Yes, it does mean something.

By trying to convince me that I'm really agnostic and should embrace it, really sounded like you were once again saying anyone who isn't fundamentalist can't really be what they claim to be. If a Christian doesn't believe in creation, then they can't consider themselves Christian. That to me sounds like you are trying to convince someone they aren't what they say they are, and should stop the charades. Why is it so important to you to label people's beliefs?

Politics is more about the country, city, group of people. It is about making society work. Religion, faith, or spirituality, is about the individual. It gives meaning to life, it can explain life, and it offers hope in so many ways. Now, obviously plenty have destroyed that and turned religion into a huge mess. But most people I know who have some sort of faith have it for personal reasons, not to make society work.

I get it you don't believe there is a God and think religion isn't worth it. I'm cool with that. What I don't like is for you go on a rant about something that is personal for a lot of people. If you are upset about religion infiltrating politics, I can get that because I believe in separation of church and state. But to seemingly obsess over what people do on their own time that isn't hurting anyone, baffles me. So, believing in a God is bizarre to you. OK. As I said before, astrology and radical vegetarianism is bizarre to me, too. But I wouldn't say that those people aren't what they claim to be because they don't live up to my definition of those groups.

It also doesn't help that I haven't had many good experiences with atheists, and I have mentioned a few incidents. The results are that I'm wary about them, and I tend to get overly defensive around them. Because what, are they going to try to pour whatever my head? Are they going to say nasty stuff at me for wearing a cross or ashes on my forehead?

I know you've said those people are assholes, and I'm not equating you with them. But honestly, in this thread, you're acting like Penn Teller, Sam Harris and all the others who aren't flexible at all when discussing this kind of topic. It's your view and no other. That really isn't fair and not good FYM debate.

And I honestly don't think you drink too much. Yes, you had a few earlier but I never once thought you have a problem. That was me fuming.

I may overreact, but I think getting overly defensive is what I really do.
I'm happy you're back

I think what may be happening is that you're reading my posts in a tone that was never intended (unless they were in response to bvs... I think my tone is fairly clear there )
I'm honestly not trying to convince anyone that doesn't want to be convinced. It's truly about the back and forth that's hopefully constructive more often than it is not.
The labeling thing isn't really important, as Lemel pointed out (iexcept when it comes to music, amirite, lemel?? ). And my post about that was more an aside than anything. I really didn't think it would cause a stir. It wasn't about telling you what you believe as much as it was me sorting out where you stand.

But I rarely 'rant' and am more than happy to point out when I do. I'm just trying to be thoughtful with my posts. The longer ones aren't necessarily rants
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 01:01 PM   #274
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
you're acting like Penn Teller, Sam Harris
Oh, thank you!
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 01:02 PM   #275
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 03:58 AM
lookit all them smilies!
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 01:10 PM   #276
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,741
Local Time: 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb8844 View Post
I consider myself a Christian, and I've followed this thread from the first page, albeit I haven't had the time to be involved in it. I see less than no problem with what Jive has been saying, or how he's been saying it. People DO treat religion as an untouchable topic. "It sounds like you're more of an agnostic," is controlling an abusive? I can't even grasp the logic someone would have to have to conclude that.

Yes, religion is a touchy, personal subject. But so are some aspects of politics. I can't imagine someone getting outraged if someone told them "it seems like you're more of a pro-choicer than a hard-line pro-lifer." No, if they disagreed with the label, they'd explain how their views differ from pro-choice views.
It can be controlling and abusive when someone labels another, but it depends on their intentions. Some people shoot their mouths off without thinking, which I think is what Jive did here.

I just detest any hint of someone trying to label me or tell me who I am. Not because I think too highly of myself or I'm too sensitive or whatever, but I just really detest anyone trying to have power over me, which is what I felt Jive unintentionally was doing.
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 01:15 PM   #277
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,741
Local Time: 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
I'm happy you're back

I think what may be happening is that you're reading my posts in a tone that was never intended (unless they were in response to bvs... I think my tone is fairly clear there )
I'm honestly not trying to convince anyone that doesn't want to be convinced. It's truly about the back and forth that's hopefully constructive more often than it is not.
The labeling thing isn't really important, as Lemel pointed out (iexcept when it comes to music, amirite, lemel?? ). And my post about that was more an aside than anything. I really didn't think it would cause a stir. It wasn't about telling you what you believe as much as it was me sorting out where you stand.

But I rarely 'rant' and am more than happy to point out when I do. I'm just trying to be thoughtful with my posts. The longer ones aren't necessarily rants
Thanks.

If it is confusing about what my beliefs are to you, try it from my end. I'm not even sure if I should try a church out or just a simple meditation group without thinking I wouldn't fit in anywhere. Maybe this is how Bono feels when he says, "I'd break bread and wine if there was a church I could receive in".
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 01:17 PM   #278
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
It can be controlling and abusive when someone labels another, but it depends on their intentions. Some people shoot their mouths off without thinking, which I think is what Jive did here.

I just detest any hint of someone trying to label me or tell me who I am. Not because I think too highly of myself or I'm too sensitive or whatever, but I just really detest anyone trying to have power over me, which is what I felt Jive unintentionally was doing.
Wasn't shooting my mouth off. Had I said something inappropriate in a drunken stupor, I'd be the first to come crawling back in here to say sorry. There's nothing in that post I wouldn't have said this morning... maybe "word processing software" instead of "typewriter"

I don't eat meat. I don't like to call myself a vegetarian. But it's the definition of what I'm doing, whether I like it or not. It's not up to me. If some says to me "Hey Jive (which would be weird in real life), you don't eat meat? Sounds to me like you're a vegetarian" I have no right to get upset about it
 
but don't you fucking call me a vegetarian, ya hear?
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 01:19 PM   #279
ONE
love, blood, life
 
iron yuppie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 10,362
Local Time: 01:58 AM
Quote:
Politics is more about the country, city, group of people. It is about making society work. Religion, faith, or spirituality, is about the individual. It gives meaning to life, it can explain life, and it offers hope in so many ways.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with this. Religion is and always has been a social phenomenon that looks to ritualize a community in specific ways. I understand that people often form their own relationship with divinity, but even that kind of mysticism - using the term in a strictest sense of the term - is almost always informed by some larger communal understanding of what divinity is. It's inaccurate to suggest that a certain type of religious person has corrupted religion by involving it with politics when religious behavior from its very inception has been about defining and ordering society. An ordering force implies power, which then implies politics.
iron yuppie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 01:22 PM   #280
War Child
 
Caleb8844's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 662
Local Time: 02:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
It can be controlling and abusive when someone labels another, but it depends on their intentions. Some people shoot their mouths off without thinking, which I think is what Jive did here.

I just detest any hint of someone trying to label me or tell me who I am. Not because I think too highly of myself or I'm too sensitive or whatever, but I just really detest anyone trying to have power over me, which is what I felt Jive unintentionally was doing.
No, suggesting a possible name for your views is not controlling or abusive. It's not as if anyone tried to say your views were ignorant or incorrect. It would be no different than someone saying "Hey, I know you call yourself a Republican, but since you're pro-small government, pro-gay, and pro-choice, have you ever considered calling yourself a Libertarian, instead?" Certainly you wouldn't consider this to be someone "shoot[ing] their mouths off without thinking."

And, next time you feel insulted by Jive, take a look at his exchanges with Indy and feel relieved
__________________

Caleb8844 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×