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Old 07-09-2013, 11:32 AM   #221
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For most people, when they say they don't believe in God - they are rejecting the Biblical view of God, but do seem to be open some sort of higher being/entity/energy...etc. Currently, there are many in the transhumanist camp that think humans, or perhaps a runaway AI, will become God through technology.
While it is true that some atheists and agnostics are really rejecting the Abrahamic God, I wouldn't say most do believe in something. That sounds like a stretch, and some skeptics will tell you they think the idea of any sort of God is absurd.
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:17 PM   #222
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I guess my point is, if John Paul is on his way to sainthood - I think it's safe to say we can agree that he didn't perform miracles - does that not cheapen the idea of sainthood? Does it not, as a believer, lead you to question the miracles supposedly performed by other saints? Doesn't it call a great deal of the lore of Christianity into question?

In Scripture, saints refer to all believers.

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The word “saint” comes from the Greek word hagios, which means “consecrated to God, holy, sacred, pious." It is almost always used in the plural, “saints.” "…Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem" (Acts 9:13). "Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda" (Acts 9:32). "And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons …“ (Acts 26:10).
In the Catholic faith, the reference to Saints is more akin to “heroes of the Catholic faith”.

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Saints intercede with God on your behalf. So it's kind of like, when you pray, you don't pray to a Saint, rather you ask them to intervene with God on your behalf due to their privileged position with God since they lived a saintly/blessed life, etc.
Thank you for the very succinct explanation.
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:46 PM   #223
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While it is true that some atheists and agnostics are really rejecting the Abrahamic God, I wouldn't say most do believe in something. That sounds like a stretch, and some skeptics will tell you they think the idea of any sort of God is absurd.
Perhaps I'm being too hopeful. I guess the few hardcore atheists that I've known always left open the door to "something" if not the Abrahamic God.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:25 PM   #224
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I think he did believe in "god" - but in more of Deist sort of way. There are more than a few Einstein "God" quotes out there...
Einstein used the word 'god' in a metaphorical sense. the same way Stephen Hawking uses it. Their 'god' is more an abstraction about the mathematical laws of the universe and nothing like the intervening god of religion. I think you'll find all the god quotes you find about Einstein are either false or taken completely out of context.

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So? Does that mean his quote has no value?

Or are you saying he never really said that and is falsely associated with that quote?
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OK, it looks like Einstein is being falsely associated with that quote. He may not have said that at all, or was misquoted.

But even so, you don't have to believe in any supreme being to be amazed by the world around you.
Einstein is routinely incorrectly cited by religious people (I don't mean you. I just see it all the time). It irks me. He has specifically gone out of his way to assert that he was in no way religious.

I couldn't agree more with your last comment though. I'm amazed every day. Sometimes I just sit and think about natural phenomena and it blows my mind that people aren't walking around wide eyed to each other all the time saying "THIS IS AMAZING!!!! AAAHHHHHH". But that has nothing to do with religion or miracles

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Saints don't perform miracles. Nor do you pray to a Saint to perform a miracle. This is a big misconception among non-Catholics.

Saints intercede with God on your behalf. So it's kind of like, when you pray, you don't pray to a Saint, rather you ask them to intervene with God on your behalf due to their privileged position with God since they lived a saintly/blessed life, etc.

So there are no miracles that JPII performed himself - it would be miraculous events that are associated with people asking him for an intercession.

Does that make sense? (By which I mean my explanation, not the actual belief.)
But I'm not wrong in saying that the beatification process requires the fulfillment of two miracles, correct? Whether they were through JP2's magic or through god's magic using JP2 as a conduit, from the perspective on Earth, the miracle came through him. Which is obviously a fraudulent claim. John Paul II was not involved in any miracles. Either was Mother Teresa (who was actually a wretched woman).
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:52 PM   #225
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Mother Teresa (who was actually a wretched woman).
But tell us how you really feel, JT.
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:09 PM   #226
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Suffering mongering dungeoness
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:11 PM   #227
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But I'm not wrong in saying that the beatification process requires the fulfillment of two miracles, correct?
Yep, I think it's 2 for beatification and 3 for sainthood?
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:16 PM   #228
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Yep, I think it's 2 for beatification and 3 for sainthood?
Ok. I thought two got you on track for sainthood too. But my original point still stands, even if my interpretation of the manifestation of said miracle was incorrect
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:33 PM   #229
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Well it's at least interesting that John XXIII gets something of a joint gong with JPII; I gather both are being put up at the same time. That one was rather longer in the making, it would seem. Personally, I'd read it as a nice political move as much as anything else, appealing to both 'liberals' and 'conservatives' (or befuddling both).

My personal view on sainthood is rather 'meh', and it would probably make most sense to see it as something of a post mortem knighthood of the church. Fair enough (depending on the candidate). The miracle business is an area where the church does descend into mumbo jumbo that I can't be bothered with. Not to say that unexplainable apparent miracles never, ever occur, or appear to occur... but the question of who interceded with whom... or what... is not one we can pretend to know the answer to.
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:39 PM   #230
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Well it's at least interesting that John XXIII gets something of a joint gong with JPII; I gather both are being put up at the same time. That one was rather longer in the making, it would seem. Personally, I'd read it as a nice political move as much as anything else, appealing to both 'liberals' and 'conservatives' (or befuddling both).

My personal view on sainthood is rather 'meh', and it would probably make most sense to see it as something of a post mortem knighthood of the church. Fair enough (depending on the candidate). The miracle business is an area where the church does descend into mumbo jumbo that I can't be bothered with. Not to say that unexplainable apparent miracles never, ever occur, or appear to occur... but the question of who interceded with whom... or what... is not one we can pretend to know the answer to.
well balanced answer
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:40 PM   #231
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On the one hand, guys, but on the other hand... I'm just having a bet each way.
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:42 PM   #232
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Pascal would be proud
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:34 PM   #233
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But tell us how you really feel, JT.
I'd agree with JT on that front as well.
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:40 PM   #234
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I like the episode of How I Met Your Mother where a pencil gets stuck in Barney's nose and Marshall tells Robin it's evidence that miracles happen.
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:43 PM   #235
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I think Mother Teresa was misguided and a fanatic. That could be because she entered the convent as a teenager and stayed in the clutches of the Catholic Church from then until the end of her life. It's like she never really had the chance to think on her own and be able to realize she wasn't being as compassionate as she thought, and not realize the Vatican was using her to make the Church look good. I'm not saying she was a victim or was dense. I think she was so molded - and was willing to be molded -to obey the Church and it's teachings, she was unable to think in anyway else.

I also want to add that Mother Teresa was one of the people who inspired me to actually give a damn about people suffering, social issues and what was going on in the world. When she died and TV news was showing her speaking about caring for the poor, it made me feel guilty that I wasn't doing enough to help those in need. Even when Princess Diana died and the media talked about her charity work, I started to feel guilty that I didn't care for those less fortunate. Since those two died within days of each other, and the media was praising their charity work so much during then, that changed me. These days, I no longer see those two as near saints, and I see them in more realistic terms. But they did influence me in a good way.
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:50 PM   #236
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That still makes her an asshole of biblical proportions
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:52 PM   #237
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That still makes her an asshole of biblical proportions
It does, and I'm not defending her. It kinda sucks knowing someone who inspired you to be a better person wasn't so great themselves.
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:58 PM   #238
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Well if it helps, it was the falsely constructed image of her that inspired you. The attributes you thought you knew are still real things and attainable. They don't need to be attached to a real person to inspire. But still, I get that it must bum you out
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:55 PM   #239
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But still, I get that it must bum you out
I got bummed out when Bono got a Maserati.
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:04 AM   #240
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Speaking of miracles... apparently Pope Francis has eschewed the custom beemers, benzes and fanciness for a Ford Focus... a used Ford Focus. Nice quote from Francis:

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“It hurts me when I see a priest or a nun with the latest model car; you can’t do this. A car is necessary to do a lot of work, but please, choose a more humble one. If you like the fancy one, just think about how many children are dying of hunger in the world.”
Might not agree with a lot of his stances, but I like what I've seen so far. The Catholic Church could use a healthy dose of humility.
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